Do I have a BOMB in my house???

[DogBonz]

Powder storage question:

I store a few pounds of smokeless powder in a military ammo can because it is air/ water tight. I throw in one of those silica jell packs to absorb moisture to keep the powder dry. I thought this was a good way to store my powder. One of my friends at work said that all that I did was build a bomb by placing an explosive inside a strong metal container. He said if I ever has a small fire it would explode big time. Who is right. Should I not store my powder in this manner? If not, how should I store it?

 

[cmb3366]

smokeless powder burns faster/better in an enclosed high pressure environment. IIRC most powder manuals suggest wooden powder kegs because they wont contain the pressure in the event of a fire. I keep my powder in a wooden foot locker.

 

[NailGun]

Modern powder is a "propellant". If the canisters are stored in a cool, dry, UNCONFINED space, they will keep just fine for years. If for some reason they were to catch on fire, they would just burn rapidly (and very hot) and accelerate the combustion of items within their vicinity. However! If powder canisters are kept in a CONFINED space, they are capable of detonating if exposed to temperatures exceeding ~248 deg. F. I am supposing that the stronger the confinement, the greater the explosion, as the burning powder developes lots of power. That said, a sheetrock lined box with a loose fitting cover is what I use. Black powder (Goex) is an explosive. I store it in a seperate building away from the house and shop. Good Luck, NailGun

 

[DogBonz]

So i should not store it in the ammo can, huh

So, if I just keep it on a shelf in the basement, it will be ok? Of course I’ll keep away from the boiler or any other heat source.

 

[Ares45]

Avoid high humidity and lots of direct sunlight and you'll be fine.

 

[wuchak]

Yes, you have a bomb.

If you need to keep it secure from children a ventilated wooden box with a lock. If not just put in on a shelf away from any heat sources.

 

[WayneConrad]

I had a chat with a reloader in the Phoenix Fire Department about how powder and primers should be stored. He shared my concern: That a pound or two is nothing to worry about, but when you order in bulk you can end up with a worrisome amount of the stuff.

He said that the important thing is that the storage unit should burst or come apart easily so that no pressure can build up should the contents ignite. The burn rate of smokess powder increases with pressure, which is why it is not an explosive when unconfined and yet can be so powerful when confined to a gun chamber (or, perhaps, an ammo can).

He suggested that I do what he did: Start with an ordinary kitchen or utility-room cabinet with spring-loaded doors and line the cabinet sides, top, bottom, back and doors with thick wood. He said that the wood will take time to burn before the powder reaches ignition temperature, buying you and firefighters time. Should the powder get too hot and ignite, the doors will blow open and prevent pressure from building and causing an explosion.

I don't know if the kind of wood matters. Does anyone know?

 

[Mal H]

DogBonz - this is another confirmation that your friend is right. As others have said, powder should be stored in a sturdy, but not overly strong cabinet, preferable wood. But, the cabinet can even be metal if it can open up with the slightest pressure. For example, an old refrigerator or freezer with a magnetic latch, not a mechanical lock, would work well.

 

[g56]

He suggested that I do what he did: Start with an ordinary kitchen or utility-room cabinet with spring-loaded doors and line the cabinet sides, top, bottom, back and doors with thick wood. He said that the wood will take time to burn before the powder reaches ignition temperature, buying you and firefighters time. Should the powder get too hot and ignite, the doors will blow open and prevent pressure from building and causing an explosion.

That is an excellent suggestion!

One of the commonly suggested powder cabinets is built with a blow out panel, usually a top panel only held on by gravity, it keeps the pressure from building up in the cabinet.

 

[Steve C]

There is no reason to guess, suppose or hypothesize about how to properly store powder. Go to any of the powder manufacturers web sites and read the regulations and safe procedures for storing smokeless powder. Every "free" manual I have from the powder companies, Alliant, Hodgdon, IMR, Accurate Arms, all have this information either in the front or the back of said manual. Every loading manual has the same information too.

 

[DogBonz]

wow... I had no idea.

It's a good thing that I asked. I'm going to put it in a wood shipping crate that i have, and place it in the basement. It is not damp down there, so I'm thinking that it will be ok. I thought that I was doing a good thing by locking it up, but I guess that I was wrong.

Thank you for the help.

 

[scout26]

Yes, you have a bomb.

http://www.reload-nrma.com/basic-rules.html

"11. Smokeless powder is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE. To dispose of deteriorated powders, follow recommendations in The Properties and Storage of Smokeless Powder * SAAMI Reprint #376-2500, which is published in some reloading guides or available from NRMA."

All the powder manufacturer's have the info both on-line and in their (will send to to you for FREE) printed recipe manuals.
From Hodgdon''s website: http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/index.php

Considerations for Storage of Smokeless Powder
Note: Pyrodex® and Triple Seven® muzzleloading powders are not smokeless powders, but the same principles and regulations for storage apply.

Smokeless powder is intended to function by burning, so it must be protected against accidental exposure to flame, sparks or high temperatures. For these reasons, it is desirable that storage enclosures be made of insulating materials to protect the powder from external heat sources. Once smokeless powder begins to burn, it will normally continue to burn (and generate gas pressure) until it is consumed.

D.O.T approved containers are constructed to open up at low internal pressures to avoid the effects normally produced by the rupture or bursting of a strong container. Storage enclosures for smokeless powder should be constructed in a similar manner:

Of fire-resistant and heat-insulating materials to protect contents from external heat.

Sufficiently large to satisfactorily vent the gaseous products of combustion which would result if the quantity of smokeless powder within the enclosure accidentally ignited.

If a small, tightly enclosed storage enclosure is loaded to capacity with containers of smokeless powder, the walls of the enclosure will expand or move outwards to release the gas pressure - if the powder in storage is accidentally ignited. Under such conditions, the effects of the release of gas pressure are similar or identical to the effects produced by an explosion.

Hence only the smallest practical quantities of smokeless powder should be kept in storage, and then in strict compliance with all applicable regulations and recommendations of the National Fire Protection Association.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recommendations for Storage of Smokeless Powder

STORE IN A COOL, DRY PLACE. Be sure the storage area selected is free from any possible sources of excess heat and is isolated from open flame, furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. Do not store smokeless powder where it will be exposed to the sun's rays. Avoid storage in areas where mechanical or electrical equipment is in operation. Restrict from the storage areas heat or sparks which may result from improper, defective or overloaded electrical circuits.

DO NOT STORE SMOKELESS POWDER IN THE SAME AREA WITH SOLVENTS, FLAMMABLE GASES OR HIGHLY COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS.

STORE ONLY IN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION APPROVED CONTAINERS. Do not transfer the powder from an approved container into one which is not approved

DO NOT SMOKE IN AREAS WHERE POWDER IS STORED OR USED. Place appropriate "No Smoking" signs in these areas.

DO NOT SUBJECT THE STORAGE CABINETS TO CLOSE CONFINEMENT STORAGE CABINETS SHOULD BE CONSTRUCTED OF INSULATING MATERIALS AND WITH A WEAK WALL, SEAMS OR JOINTS TO PROVIDE AN EASY MEANS OF SELF-VENTING.

DO NOT KEEP OLD OR SALVAGED POWDERS. Check old powders for deterioration regularly. Destroy deteriorated powders immediately.

OBEY ALL REGULATIONS REGARDING QUANTITY AND METHODS OF STORING. Do not store all your powders in one place. If you can, maintain separate storage locations. Many small containers are safer than one or more large containers.

KEEP YOUR STORAGE AND USE AREA CLEAN. Clean up spilled powder promptly. Make sure the surrounding area is free of trash or other readily combustible materials.

Then there's this from The National Fire Protection Association:

National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Guidelines
Note: Pyrodex® and Triple Seven® muzzleloading powders are not smokeless powders, but the same principles and regulations for storage apply.

13-3 SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS

13-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 lb (11.3 kg), in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation, shall be permitted to be transported in a private vehicle.

13-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb (11.3 kg) but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), transported in a private vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

13-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants in a private vehicle shall be prohibited.

13-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless powder for small arms which has been classed in Division 1.3 shall be permitted to be reclassed as Division 4.1 Flammable Solid for transportation purposes for shipment by motor vehicle, rail car, vessel, or cargo-only aircraft, subject to the conditions stated in the U.S. Department of Transportation "Hazardous Materials Regulations," 49 CFR 173.171.

13-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg) or not packaged in accordance with the regulations cited in 13-3.4 shall be transported in accordance with the U.S. Department of Transportation regulations for Class B propellant explosives.

13-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers specified by U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations.

13-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

13-3.8 Not more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1 lb (0.45 kg) maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments.

13-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be stored as follows:

(1) Quantities exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), but not exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness.

(2) Quantities exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), but not exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having walls of at least 1 in (25.4 mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb (181 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in any one cabinet, and cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.

(3) Quantities exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), but not exceeding 5,000 lb (2268 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in a building, provided the following requirements are met:

(a). The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel.

(b). Smokeless propellant shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wood walls at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness and having shelves with no more than 3 ft. (0.92 m) of separation between shelves.

(c). No more than 400 lb. (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet..

(d). Cabinets shall be located against the walls of the storage room or warehouse with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets.

(e). The separation between cabinets shall be permitted to be reduced to 20 ft (6.1 m) where barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft. (3 m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in. (6.4 mm) boiler plate, 2 in. (51 mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block.

(f). Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft. (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.

(g). The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.

(4) Smokeless propellants not stored in accordance with 13.3.9 (1), (2), and (3) shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed and located in accordance with Chapter 8.

Reprinted from NFPA495-85, Standard for the Manufacture, Transportation, Storage and Use of Explosive Materials, © 2001, National Fire Protection Association, Quincy, MA 02269. This reprinted material is not the complete and official position of the NFPA on the referenced subject, which is represented by the Standard in its entirety.

49 CFR also deals with Transport and Storage of smokeless powder, but I don't feel like digging through all the government-ese of that door stop.

I just keep mine in the original containers on a shelving unit with the shot, wads and hulls, next to my reloading table.

 

[shooting on a shoestring]

Here's what happened...

My Dad's shop burned about 4 years ago. He was a reloader and had a large quantity of smokeless. Mostly in 1 pound cans, some in 8 and 25 pound kegs. It burned fine, no big bang. The big bang came from about 10 or so cans of FFg and FFFg. Blew the windows, doors and an overhead door off. Fire department came and pulled out the acetylene and oxygen cylinders before they went (May I never be a Fireman, and God bless those who are). Funny thing, the Fire Marshall said the explosion taking off the doors and windows saved the structure b/c it allowed the heat to escape and slowed the fire until the fire department got there. It turns out when heat is kept sealed in a house or shop, the fire burns more intensely.

PS all the loaded ammo popped and blew out the sides of the cases, no bullets flying around.

 

[darwin-t]

What happened to the original containers? Why not just keep it in those?

 

[WayneConrad]

Darwin-t, good question. I assumed we were talking about how to add additional protection to the original factory can.

 

[DogBonz]

you are correct

I assumed we were talking about how to add additional protection to the original factory can.

It is still in its original containers. I do not reload at the current moment, but will be soon. I almost have enough cash saved up to buy a reloading kit. I got the powder from a friend whose father was a reloader, and had passed away. My friend who will shoot with me but does not want to reload himself, sold the press and dies along with all of the other equipment on ebay. He just assumed that I already had all of my own reloading equipment. Well we all know what happens when you assume…
So all he had left was the powder and some 30 cal bullets, which he gave to me. I saved them because I will be buying my setup next month. I thought that by keeping it in one of those big ammo cans, that it would keep longer, so I put the 1lb jugs in the ammo can… which I have subsequently removed from said can and placed on the shelf in the basement away from all heat/spark sources.

 

[eastwood44mag]

Most accounts I've read recommend having an Achilles heel in your container (i.e. have one wall that will blow out under little/no effort, to prevent the explosive effect).

 

[WayneConrad]

DogBonz, as far as moisture goes, Dad reloaded for many years in sopping-wet Washington state. His reloading bench was in a workshop built under the back porch. It was always damp in there. His press rusted a bit, but none of the cans of powder, whether metal or plastic, ever had any problem from moisture. All he did was to keep the lid on tight.

 

[darwin-t]

FWIW, when I started reloading again last year I had a can of Bullseye that had been sitting on a shelf in my basement for 30 years - the "can" was made of cardboard. I loaded it up and it worked just fine. The basement never has been damp, but I made no special effort to store it any differently than any of the junk in my basement.

 

[Cowboybootnut]

I keep my 30 lbs of gun powder next to my 1000 gallon gas tank. (just kidding )

Actually I have mine in my wife's old sewing machine cabinet that she does not use anymore. It has two doors that swing out and are ventillated, so hopefully I am safe.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Primers?

Scout26, that information was great! What does the NFPA say about primers? Thanks in advance.

 

[flutedchamber]

The only thing I can add to what has been stated above is that to keep your powder dry in less than arid conditions put the container in a large zip loc bag. They even make ones large enough now for pillows, etc. so you can store multiple cans in one bag.

 

[Grump]

Just happened across a law in one of the states where I practice (UT), and it's something like a gross misdemeanor to store more than 500 lbs of powder in one spot without a permit (which, IIRC, requires local fire inspection).

Got any criminals on the Board here???

Truth be told, there are some strange physics type things that can happen with large quantities of flammables stored in close quarters. Even mere oxidizers w/o significant fuel *can* truly detonate (read: adiabatic shock type reactions)

 

[dfaugh]

Back to the shop where the windows and doors blew off...

Making something like this, whether a small container or a building is a good practice. I sused to work in a chemical plant, where we were often using several hundred gallons of highly flammable/explosive chemicals. All of the walls on the buildings were made such that they would "blow out" in the even of a major explosion. Otherwise, the concussion wave, even if you were quite a ways a way could be fatal. Never had an explosion in my building, but we had 2 in the adjacent (joined) building, and even with the walls blowing out, the pressure wave was impressive. The floors also shook, pretty good. I didn't keep that job for long.

 

[HankB]

If storing a progressive burning propellent powder (not black powder) in an ammo can makes it a bomb, they better quit storing ammo in those things.