Do we really need all of that performance??

[Jonesy814]

For me, a round where I can shoot fast, accurate follow-up shots is more important than having the fastest ammo out there. I did some experimentation a few years ago with my SP101. I did a fast draw and shot all 5 on target at 20 feet wth 38 Plus P, then with full power 158gr magnums. It took a bit over 50% longer with the magnums. We had filmed this and later I loaded some 140gr XTP's with a lower/midrange powder load that made it more of a +P+ than a magnum. That seemed to be the sweet spot. Times were only 4-5% slower than plus P 125gr using a heavier bullet at a slightly higher velocity.
If you can find it, the Federal HST 135gr +P short barrel revolver load is surprisingly mild when shot from my S&W air weight J frame

 

[CraigC]

Oh I don't know if that's the case. Nobody was interested in the Magnums. I think they were the result of newer, faster powders coming out along with better metallurgy in revolvers. Keith and others put two and two together but they weren't exactly popular. It took Clint Eastwood to get the sales on the 44 mag going, almost 20 years after it's inception.

It's absolutely the case. Police needed a better round to penetrate vehicles. The .357 is one of the most popular cartridges ever devised.

Keith and others loaded the .38Spl and .44Spl heavy, along with a few wildcats because they needed a cartridge with more killing power than what was available. The .44Mag was just the factory option. Outdoorsmen were already loading the .44Spl and .45Colt heavy and took to the .44Mag instantly. Dick Casull was doing the work that led to the .454 in the 1950's. What Dirty Harry did for the general populace is irrelevant.

 

[Dibbs]

Soo, spend outrageous money, on ammo, which will then put a strain on the limits of my chamber, bolt, extractor, and other internals?

Hard pass. If I need a stronger caliber, I'll use a stronger caliber.

 

[Mn Fats]

It's absolutely the case. Police needed a better round to penetrate vehicles. The .357 is one of the most popular cartridges ever devised.

To penetrate vehicles? Police always need a better round. 357 wouldn't exactly be vehicle penetrator. If that's the basis for the development of the magnum handgun round, then that's news to me. I always thought it was sportsmen wanting a more powerful/efficient handgun, not the police departments demands. They always seemed to be behind until the 80's or 90's anyways.

What Dirty Harry did for the general populace is irrelevant.

Sure helped. The .44 mag was on life support with the general populace at the time. .357 not so much but the .44 magnum was definitely niche, then after the movie you couldn't find the already hard to find revolver anywhere. Along with .44 mag cartridges that disappeared off the shelves. Hunters and police didn't cause that.

That's my takeaway. I know you know your stuff, so I'll quit here.

 

[brutus51]

Which is a rather ironic statement in this thread… as the .38 Super +P is a souped up .38 ACP.

Nah, first came the cartridge then technology allowed a gun that could handle the Super, same holds true for old black powder guns

 

[Plan2Live]

In my opinion, the gun community spends way too much time fretting over caliber, penetration, expansion, round count, etc. My basis for this opinion is, most of us will never even pull our firearm in a self defense scenario, let alone pull the trigger. I carry everywhere I am allowed to carry but I stopped worrying about capacity, caliber, clean crisp triggers, etc. some time ago. I carry what I carry and I'm the only person that has to approve my choices.

 

[Kleanbore]

In my opinion, the gun community spends way too much time fretting over caliber, penetration, expansion, round count, etc.

I agree.

My basis for this opinion is, most of us will never even pull our firearm in a self defense scenario, let alone pull the trigger.

I don't see how that follows.

 

[Plan2Live]

I don't see how that follows.

Self defense shootings compared to the number of gun owners is extremely rare.

 

[Kleanbore]

Self defense shootings compared to the number of gun owners is extremely rare.

What could that have to do with the choice of firearm?

 

[DT Guy]

In my opinion, the gun community spends way too much time fretting over caliber, penetration, expansion, round count, etc. My basis for this opinion is, most of us will never even pull our firearm in a self defense scenario, let alone pull the trigger. I carry everywhere I am allowed to carry but I stopped worrying about capacity, caliber, clean crisp triggers, etc. some time ago. I carry what I carry and I'm the only person that has to approve my choices.

You make a good argument for not carrying a gun at all. But since I DO 'plan to live', I carry one that statistically gives me a reasonable (all handguns are crappy stoppers compared to rifles or shotguns, as we know) chance of stopping my attacker.

An analogy of your argument would be, "It's extraordinarily unlikely I'll ever need this parachute; all odds are against it. I'll still carry it, though, but won't care if it's in good condition and packed properly, since I'm so unlikely to use it."

I think of my gun like a parachute, a fire extinguisher or an AED; all are highly unlikely to be used, but if I'm going to the trouble of having one, I'm going to make damned sure they'll work.

Larry

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Then, if the BG doesn't pass, you're looking at all kinds of lies and lawsuits. If he does, then just the lawsuits and deranged and greedy family members.

 

[trackskippy]

I think of my gun like a parachute, a fire extinguisher or an AED; all are highly unlikely to be used, but if I'm going to the trouble of having one, I'm going to make damned sure they'll work.

Larry

Id add to that, making sure you're intimately familiar with them, know how to work them, and shoot them well without thought. We have all sorts of technology, but if you dont have the know hoand/, or skills to make them work, its pretty much a moot point.

I still think a lot of people seem to think that by buying "performance", it will make up for their lack of skills. If you dont have the skills, what you choose likely wont make any difference.

 

[CDW4ME]

In my opinion, the gun community spends way too much time fretting over caliber, penetration, expansion, round count, etc. My basis for this opinion is, most of us will never even pull our firearm in a self defense scenario, let alone pull the trigger. I carry everywhere I am allowed to carry but I stopped worrying about capacity, caliber, clean crisp triggers, etc. some time ago. I carry what I carry and I'm the only person that has to approve my choices.

If you would like to elaborate on what you carry I'll benevolently provide feedback, most people appreciate it. (Even especially if they deny it)

Hypothetical examples:
Someone only owns a 38 snub or pocket 380 and carries it everywhere legal - I say good job.
Has a 38 snub / pocket 380 and Sig 365 (which they shoot better) - carries the 38/380 at work (NPE) but carries the Sig 365 otherwise - I say good job.
Has 38/380 and Sig 365 (they shoot better) but sometimes carries the 38/380 for a "quick trip to the store" in a "good area" - We have room for improvement.

 

[bigmike45]

I love it when a non-gun person questions my reasoning for carrying a gun when the cops are supposed to rescue us. I simply ask them "Do you drive a car?" when they say yes I then ask, "Does your car have a spare tire?" when they say yes I then ask, "WHY?" They say "just in case I have a flat and need to change the tire". I said to one "I saw a Triple A sticker on your bumper, why not just wait for them to come and rescue you?" They generally roll their eyes and walk away.....

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

I think that the gun community has been sold on the idea that we need +p, +p+, etc for all of our beloved old time calibers. I've read so many articles that declare the 22 LR ineffective, the 25 ACP ineffective, the 32 ACP ineffective and the 380 is even kind of lite for personal defense. Heck, the 38 special will bounce off car windows according to Harry Callahan.

All that is a bunch of bunk in order to get us to spend more money on ammo, more money on guns, more money on reloading data when I think that there is over 100 years of historical records where those calibers were effective in their original form.

Of course you'll always find a situation where a 38 was ineffective (Miami). I would say that any pistol caliber may not have gotten the job done in some of those situations.

Buying more guns and ammo is always a great idea as long as we understand the truth of the situation.

What do ya'll think?

Mr. GunBlue490 suggests getting more modern defense-type ammo for your trusty old .38 Special. Most if not all modern "wondernine" (Glock 9mm's and Glock 9mm spinoffs from Smith & Wesson) autos can handle 9mm ammo with defensive hollow-point configurations too. Hollow-points for those smaller-than-40-something bores to get good frontal area. Most police officers can't even handle a .357 revolver firing .357 Magnum loads.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I think the best retro fit rounds for a revolver are Lehigh Xtreme Defenders. They dont rely on expansion and perform better than most hollow points. They do extremely well with .380acp.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

An off duty brother officer was in a holdup, hardware store in lower Manhattan in the late 70's.

The perpetrators started herding everyone in the store towards the back, at that time there were a lot of robberies where they took everyone to the back of the store and killed them. He ducked behind a pillar and started firing with a 2" Colt Det. Spl. with .38Spl. +P HP. One shot hit a coiled garden hose, which captured the bullet, the other hit the thick solid glass front door, and slid off it, not breaking it. Nobody ever said Kenny was the best shot.

Both mutts rapidly fled, neither was hit. In this case, a more powerful round wouldn't have helped. Shot placement is everything.

You can't stop what you can't hit but the two punks got scared off anyway.

 

[Styx]

I think that the gun community has been sold on the idea that we need +p, +p+, etc for all of our beloved old time calibers. I've read so many articles that declare the 22 LR ineffective, the 25 ACP ineffective, the 32 ACP ineffective and the 380 is even kind of lite for personal defense. Heck, the 38 special will bounce off car windows according to Harry Callahan.

All that is a bunch of bunk in order to get us to spend more money on ammo, more money on guns, more money on reloading data when I think that there is over 100 years of historical records where those calibers were effective in their original form.

Of course you'll always find a situation where a 38 was ineffective (Miami). I would say that any pistol caliber may not have gotten the job done in some of those situations.

Buying more guns and ammo is always a great idea as long as we understand the truth of the situation.

What do ya'll think?

Ive EDC'd 380 acp, 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp, 38 spc, 357 mag. I do not believe the hype that others in the thread have been lead to believe. Unless I plan on taking down a large animal, 380 acp and so on will do just fine despite all the anecdotals and hyperbole spewed on gun forums. With that said, I still carry other calibers because I like verity and overkill.

I believe the data had shown that all handgun rounds suck at killing, the overwhelming majority of people shot every year survive, and people have been killed with a variety of calibers.

 

[Styx]

Double post

 

[CDW4ME]

I believe the data had shown that all handgun rounds suck at killing, the overwhelming majority of people shot every year survive, and people have been killed with a variety of calibers.

Goal of self defense is quick incapacitation of attacker(s) - that said...

Larger calibers are more lethal (which is not a factor when selecting a caliber for SD), according to:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-firearms-wounds-idUSKBN1KH26T

People are killed by the flu, but the flu is not quickly incapacitating upon contact.
Goal of SD is quickly incapacitating and a bullet that penetrates at least 12'' and expands has better ASAP potential than one that doesn't.
There are a couple of 380 loads that meet the 12'' penetration and consistent expansion criteria; if I was limited to 380 I'd carry one of those bullets.
Thankfully, I'm not limited to 380 and carry 9mm minimum everywhere, I don't want less ASAP potential (or bullets) because I'm standing in a nice spot.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

From what I understand:
Standard pressure ammo will function in the older guns that are not rated for +P

+P is best for short barrels to gain the loss in velocity with bullets that were designed for standard loads/barrels, or
for longer barrel carbines to increase velocity, or
for compensated guns the extra powder increases pressure on the ports to reduce recoil.

When it comes to recoil, weight of the bullet makes the biggest difference. You can use +P rounds with lighter bullets and have less recoil than a standard load.
A 38spl 110gr+P will have less recoil than a standard 158gr
A 45acp +P 185gr has the same recoil as a standard 230gr

 

[d'zaster]

The only +P ammo i have is for 38 special cow. I reload all my calibers and never messed with the +p or +p+ loads. With the hotter loads, accuracy can suffer. I appreciate there will be more energy and terminal effectiveness/penetration but I have not felt compelled to experiment with those loadings.

 

[d'zaster]

38 special for CCW. There ain't no 38 special cow...........

 

[md7]

I tend not to overthink it. Pick a reliable pistol, a caliber that’s reputable for defense, carry extra mags/ammo, and practice.

Will take premium defensive ammo if the store has it, will take the next best thing if they don’t. Practice, load up, and carry on in either case.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Primarily, pick something that you can carry every single day.
If you're like me and stuck wearing a uniform of sports shirt and dress slacks, a small pistol will have to do... .