Do You Keep Records of Private Sales?

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I've always asked for a receipt for a gun I BOUGHT ftf. Just make, model, sn and their name, which I added their phone number and address to if I had them. Just in case if the gun was stolen or was reported stolen at a later date (insurance claim). Otherwise it's your word against theirs.
 
I collect C&Rs and have a FFL03.

For C&Rs I have to have name and address when I buy and when selling I need name, address, DL number and birth date or FFL# if the other person is a FFL.

I've yet to have anyone refuse to provide the information. If they should, there is no deal as I won't disobey the requirements of my license.

For non-C&Rs, If selling I still want to see residency/age proof (but I don't record it) and will provide same if they want mine.
 
I’ve never sold a gun so that’s not an issue for me. I have bought quite a few on FTF transactions, generally from a local internet add. As long as the seller is an AZ resident, it’s good enough. To document the purchase, I print out the posted add. Then I add his phone number and name if available. At the time of the meet, I’ll also note his vehicle make & model and license plate if I can see it. This is only as a CYA just in case.
 
No. I look at their driver's license. When there is no requirement to have a paper record, then why have a record linking your former gun to anybody?

Many buyers might not write down, or want to keep a record of your car's license plate.
Whether they note your license plate or not, you won't know to whom they might later sell the same gun.

So if this is a serious concern, sell only to a relative, friend or at a major "discount";) to a retail gun shop.
 
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Fear of big brother aside, what about civil concerns? I work in healthcare. I can't count the number of times that I received notice that we were involved in a suit because we were merely one stop in the recovery from an at-fault vehicle accident. If your gun is used in a crime, it is quite feasible that a plaintiff sue every person in that transaction chain. No records no chain. There is another thread on here about registration. Would be interesting to cross-reference the two to see who pounds their fist about government registration yet happily provided their own. There is a word for that....
 
Lycidas Janwor said:
yes, it should, if the bill of sale is signed by both parties. It should absolutely hold up in a court of law.
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Is it notarized?

Are you sure a signature without proof of who did the signing will absolutely hold up in court?

guyfromohio said:
Fear of big brother aside, what about civil concerns? I work in healthcare. I can't count the number of times that I received notice that we were involved in a suit because we were merely one stop in the recovery from an at-fault vehicle accident. If your gun is used in a crime, it is quite feasible that a plaintiff sue every person in that transaction chain. No records no chain. There is another thread on here about registration. Would be interesting to cross-reference the two to see who pounds their fist about government registration yet happily provided their own. There is a word for that....
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Not exactly the same situations between those two. Most of the people explaining why they believe having a sales record could be beneficial are doing so under the premise that they are already possibly essentially "registered" to the gun via a 4473 from when they had it transferred to them at a dealer.
 
It is against the law to buy a gun if you are a criminal or not old enough or a resident of my state.
Isn't that enough?
Why do *I* have to assume that you would do something illegal?

Here in MI we have handgun registration and paperwork is required for their sale.
NOTHING says I need to keep any of that paperwork after buying (beyond 30 days) or selling any gun.
To date, I haven't been able to find where registration has helped solve any crime other then possession of an unregistered handgun.
I can't find any proof that it keeps guns out of the hands of "prohibited" people or has saved any lives.

I also can not find a verifiable case where a lack of a bill of sale or any other paperwork has caused anyone to be charged with any crime or having paperwork has contributed to them not being charged.
 
Leader said:
It is against the law to buy a gun if you are a criminal or not old enough or a resident of my state.
Isn't that enough?
Why do *I* have to assume that you would do something illegal?

Here in MI we have handgun registration and paperwork is required for their sale.
NOTHING says I need to keep any of that paperwork after buying (beyond 30 days) or selling any gun.
To date, I haven't been able to find where registration has helped solve any crime other then possession of an unregistered handgun.
I can't find any proof that it keeps guns out of the hands of "prohibited" people or has saved any lives.

I also can not find a verifiable case where a lack of a bill of sale or any other paperwork has caused anyone to be charged with any crime or having paperwork has contributed to them not being charged.
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You don't.

But you cannot have reason to believe I (the buyer) is prohibited.

You can't sell alcohol to a 15 year old either.

You are of course correct on the registration. All of these hoops and expenses that certain groups create accomplish is to make it more expensive and time consuming for law abiding folks to arm themselves, which means fewer do so, which in turn makes it easier for them to pass yet more restrictive laws until eventually they start sending letters to all of those registered owners with instructions on how to turn in, destroy, or ship-out-of-state their soon-to-be illegal items. Just ask NY and NYC about that.
 
guyfromohio said:
Fear of big brother aside, what about civil concerns? I work in healthcare. I can't count the number of times that I received notice that we were involved in a suit because we were merely one stop in the recovery from an at-fault vehicle accident. If your gun is used in a crime, it is quite feasible that a plaintiff sue every person in that transaction chain. No records no chain. There is another thread on here about registration. Would be interesting to cross-reference the two to see who pounds their fist about government registration yet happily provided their own. There is a word for that....
Click to expand...
If there's a 4473 form on the gun with my name it is already essentially "registered" to me. Writing down the name of the person I sold it to is an attempt to "unregistered" it, at least a bit. If I can provide a name of who I sold it to then at least I might give investigators a credible place to start on the trail of who the last owner was. If you see some sort of hypocrisy in that then might I suggest you direct your righteous indignation upon anyone who has ever purchased a gun from an FFL since 1968 because they apparently have all been compliant toadies with Big Brother.

For a gun that I bought in a private sale I don't bother getting their name, just seeing that they are a resident and asking if they are prohibited. You would be surprised how many people don't know that private sales are illegal across state lines, or at least pretend not to know.
 
I follow IL law as prescribed.

We have to keep a record of the transfer for 10 years:
Date of transfer
Description, serial number, or other info identifying the firearm if no serial
If transfer is within IL, you must keep the transferee's FOID number and you have to use their FOID number and birth date to submit it to the IL State Police to get a "Transfer Approval Number" that also must be kept with the record.

Per the back of the FOID Card:
"On demand of a peace officer such transferor shall produce for inspection such record of transfer."

Yes, it's a paper trail. However, I do find some comfort in knowing the person I'm transferring the firearm to has a valid FOID card so theoretically (nothing is perfect) they should be legally permitted to purchase a firearm in IL.
 
Yes. The state provides the forms, mandates their use, and mandates that they be kept forever. In the case of handguns, they also require that a copy be sent to the state police and to the police department of the town where the buyer lives.

I know what you're thinking and yes, I do live in the USA!
 
"Yes, it's a paper trail. However, I do find some comfort in knowing the person I'm transferring the firearm to has a valid FOID card so theoretically (nothing is perfect) they should be legally permitted to purchase a firearm in IL."

I agree. There are occasional benefits to our system. We must get a permit from the local PD prior to each handgun purchase. Many years ago we had an incident where a robbery was committed with a guard being killed and his gun taken. A number of years later his gun (listed as stolen) turned up in the collection of a local gun collector following a devastating fire at his house. The only thing that saved the collector was his copy of the permit showing that he'd purchased the gun several years before and had reported it to the state police as required. They had all the info but never flagged it as a stolen gun. The collector was spared a costly legal nightmare.
 
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycidas Janwor View Post
yes, it should, if the bill of sale is signed by both parties. It should absolutely hold up in a court of law."

"Is it notarized?
Are you sure a signature without proof of who did the signing will absolutely hold up in court?"



A suggestion for those of you who do this - when I sell a vehicle I scan and print out my driver license and the buyer's on top of a sheet of paper and type the bill of sale below the images. This provides a positive ID record and most driver licenses bear a signature so that can be used to validate the signature on the bill of sale. I don't think it would have any trouble being upheld in court but even if it did it shows a good faith effort.
 
For all the guys who ask for a CC permit. Would you turn the buyer away if they didn't have one? I know lots of people that have guns but don't CC so they never bothered to get their permit. My father for example doesn't have a CC permit because he mainly has guns for hunting and occasional trips to the range. Would you guys accept a hunting license in place of a CC permit? I'm not trying to come off like a jerk or anything, I'm just curious.
 
I keep names and addresses of people from whom I purchased a weapon, and if I sell one, I keep a record to whom I sold it to.

Since I have a number of store bought firearms, if anything goes wrong with a firearm I sold, I am the first person the BATF will come to in a trace. While these things can go through many hands, I at least know to whom I sold it to.

I am not a criminal, not intentionally selling to criminals, I know that acting like you have something to hide will only cause Law Enforcement to more closely scrutinize everything about you. I am remember the Blue Card system in Massachusetts, private sales were reported to the Police and the transfer to another individual was recorded on a Blue Card. It did not cut down on crime but it made it easy for the Police to trace guns. If you did not like that, you have the option of leaving Massachusetts, a state I will never be a resident. However, the residents accept this intrusion and it is not an issue for them. Most of what I read in this thread about not keeping records is paranoia based. Recording or not recording sales will not change for one iota the laws of your State. Losing elections changes laws. If the citizens of your state authorize your Government to pick up all guns, you unfortunately, lost the election. At that point, you will have the choice of going to jail, or turning them in. If a gun turns up in a crime and it is traced to you, but you don’t know to whom you sold it, you may have a problem explaining things.
 
Warp said:
Are you sure that your homemade piece of paper claiming you transferred the gun to somebody constitutes "proof" in the legal sense?
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The way I write it, including info from your drivers lic. or carry permit and your signature as having received it at a specified time and date goes a long way towards legal proof. I'm not filing a deed, just covering my ass. You do something stupid and the weapon is found, I don't want it coming back to me.

Don't like my terms, don't buy it. Whatever money I may lose by not selling it will be much less than legal fees if I have to hire a lawyer because I'm a suspect.
 
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Ranger Roberts.... Personally, I just post that it's preferred. My thought is that it might show that I respect the law and prefer to do business with those also respecting the law. It also says that I hVe an expectation that the buyer will be armed and I'm ok with that. I'd say about 1/3 of people who have purchased guns that I've grown tired of have just shown DL.
 
I don't do it. That being said I do not mind when other people ask me to fill out one. I have always found people who get upset over something so trivial kind of silly. I have never really understood what the big deal is. I think a lot of people make a big deal about it just to have something to make a big deal out of.
 
^ So true, no need. Exchange gun for money and walk away. No paper, no trail, so simple.

Why do we just gotta complicate it. Why? I have no rational idea.
 
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Red Wind said:
^ So true, no need. Exchange gun for money and walk away. No paper, no trail, so simple.

Why do we just gotta complicate it. Why? I have no rational idea.
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There are a couple of dozen posts in this thread explaining the rational idea and the reason to "complicate it."

Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it isn't rational or that it doesn't have merit. But since you brought it up let me ask you a question: how many guns that you bought new on a 4473 form have you sold to someone without having any idea of who they were? I have several that I traded from my younger days and I can tell you that one of my hopes is that I never to have to explain, with no credible alternative, why I wasn't the one who used it in a crime.

Apparently to some people wanting to know the name of the person I sell a gun to makes me Chuck Schumer's evil cousin. This thread is like debating abortion: both sides know they are right and have no desire to change their views.
 
Elkins45 said:
There are a couple of dozen posts in this thread explaining the rational idea and the reason to "complicate it."

Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it isn't rational or that it doesn't have merit. But since you brought it up let me ask you a question: how many guns that you bought new on a 4473 form have you sold to someone without having any idea of who they were? I have several that I traded from my younger days and I can tell you that one of my hopes is that I never to have to explain, with no credible alternative, why I wasn't the one who used it in a crime.

Apparently to some people wanting to know the name of the person I sell a gun to makes me Chuck Schumer's evil cousin. This thread is like debating abortion: both sides know they are right and have no desire to change their views.
Click to expand...

I don't think the "without having any idea of who they were" part is completely accurate, meeting somebody face to face just for a few minutes gives you some idea, but I get what you are driving at there.

Five.
 
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