Do You Keep Records of Private Sales?

Status
Not open for further replies.
For all of you who claim tracing serial numbers is just a TV phenomenon, here's real life proof. The gun used to kill the 2 NYC police officers has been traced back to a 1996 sale. They contacted the original owner and want to know if he had it, or had disposed of it, and to whom. This is the reason I keep signed bill's of sale from a buyer. No, I've never been contacted myself, and I hope I never am.

Please, no comments that it's just because LEO's were killed. They have the ability to do it, period.

Here's an article describing the search: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/n...8F43826362F8B1E03A0&gwt=pay&assetType=nyt_now
 
I would never obstruct an investigation. If I could help, I would (remember a transaction, have an email, phone, whatever). But my duty is to follow the law not to play Nancy Drew and create trail of breadcrumbs for LE to follow. If my state required it, I would comply. It does not. "Sir we've traced this gun to you through your FFL purchase via our not-a-registration and we have reason to believe it was used in a crime." "Officer, I sold it a long time ago in compliance with the laws of my state."
 
Speedo66 said:
For all of you who claim tracing serial numbers is just a TV phenomenon, here's real life proof. The gun used to kill the 2 NYC police officers has been traced back to a 1996 sale. They contacted the original owner and want to know if he had it, or had disposed of it, and to whom. This is the reason I keep signed bill's of sale from a buyer. No, I've never been contacted myself, and I hope I never am.

Please, no comments that it's just because LEO's were killed. They have the ability to do it, period.

Here's an article describing the search: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/n...8F43826362F8B1E03A0&gwt=pay&assetType=nyt_now
Click to expand...
What was the original owner charged with?
How many people have owned the gun in the last 18 yrs?

Did they have documentation to PROVE they didn't still own the gun? Were they arrested for not having it?

How would you having such documentation keep you from being in trouble?

I still want to see a verifiable example of where keeping the info prevented someone from being convicted of whatever crime they were arrested for.

What does knowing who has owned a gun in the past accomplish for LEO's?
 
guyfromohio said:
I would never obstruct an investigation. If I could help, I would (remember a transaction, have an email, phone, whatever). But my duty is to follow the law not to play Nancy Drew and create trail of breadcrumbs for LE to follow. If my state required it, I would comply. It does not. "Sir we've traced this gun to you through your FFL purchase via our not-a-registration and we have reason to believe it was used in a crime." "Officer, I sold it a long time ago in compliance with the laws of my state."
Click to expand...
"Sir, please accompany us down to the station so we can spend some more time trying to jog your memory. Or determine if you're telling the truth. You're not a suspect, at this time."

Easier: "Here's a bill of sale showing who I sold it to". Done

I'll take the latter, please.
 
guyfromohio said:
I would never obstruct an investigation. If I could help, I would (remember a transaction, have an email, phone, whatever). But my duty is to follow the law not to play Nancy Drew and create trail of breadcrumbs for LE to follow. If my state required it, I would comply. It does not. "Sir we've traced this gun to you through your FFL purchase via our not-a-registration and we have reason to believe it was used in a crime." "Officer, I sold it a long time ago in compliance with the laws of my state."
Click to expand...
I actually don't disagree with any of that, and I'm not doing it to facilitate an investigation. I'm just doing it as a CYA.

I guess I should point out again (not because of anything in your reply) that I don't require a written bill of sale. I just need to know your name and to see a valid KY ID so I know I'm not knowingly violating the law.

The only time I ever was involved in paperwork for a private sale was when I sold a rifle on Armslist and the buyer was a C&R FFL who required a bill of sale for his records. I knew this before we met and I printed him one on my computer before we met. This was on a 4473 gun, but I probably would have done the same for one acquired in a private sale.

I think in some cases the fear of a paper trail is as bad and as unwarranted as the desire to have one. I don't know how many guns have passed through my hands in the last 30 years, but statistically I'm sure at least one of them had been stolen at some time. Heck, there may be one acquired in a private sale that I own now that was stolen, even if it was never reported or the owner didn't know the serial number. But I can promise you I didn't know it was stolen at the time, and I understand that if I ever trade it to an FFL that I run the risk of losing the cash value of it if the number comes up stolen. That's the risk of private transactions, and I can see why this would make some folks not want their name on a gun.

I have spent way too much time in this thread--I promise I don't really care if people do or don't keep records--but I do resent some of the comments about being some sort of advocate for registration. Some people don't understant the difference between voluntarily engaging in a practice (freedom) and having it imposed on you (infringement).
 
I want to reiterate that the reason I carry is because bad guys have guns. I don't want bad guys to have guns. I will happily assist in the apprehension of a bad guy if I can. I am not anti-LEO and certainly not obstructionist. I do take solace in the possibility that I may have a firearm in my possession that will not show up on anyone's not-a-registry. Elkins...cheers amigo. I don't think we're that far apart.
 
Having good friends who are cops and one of those friends sold his gun to a guy without one and the guy was a bag of dirt. Turns out he was using it to impersonate a police officer with his security guard uniform, a white crown vic that he had a laptop stand, the spotlight and a dash -cam and light board installed in it.

anyway, gun was removed from him when he was arrested, gun was traced back to the cop, cop had detectives show up at his house, he couldn't prove immediately he sold the gun it went to an IA board. The IA board cleared him because the suspect admitted he bought it legally but not before the cop was threatened with his job, They said if he produced a BoS it would have ended at his doorstep that night.
 
HRnightmare said:
Having good friends who are cops and one of those friends sold his gun to a guy without one and the guy was a bag of dirt. Turns out he was using it to impersonate a police officer with his security guard uniform, a white crown vic that he had a laptop stand, the spotlight and a dash -cam and light board installed in it.

anyway, gun was removed from him when he was arrested, gun was traced back to the cop, cop had detectives show up at his house, he couldn't prove immediately he sold the gun it went to an IA board. The IA board cleared him because the suspect admitted he bought it legally but not before the cop was threatened with his job, They said if he produced a BoS it would have ended at his doorstep that night.
Click to expand...

They took the word of the criminal that the transfer was done legally?

How would a BoS prove it was done legally? What are the requirements in that state for the transfer to be legal?
 
I always ask for one for any gun or portion registered as the "firearm" like a lower receiver, etc.

I have sold one or two without one simply because I forgot about it or one time they guy said he would show me his ID when he showed up, he got real aggressive about the price, showed up with 3-4 buddies all HUGE guys, the buyer had a Los Zeta's tattoo ON HIS FACE. Walked up to me, I popped my trunk, he grabbed the rifle, dropped the cash in my trunk and before I knew it he was in the car and gone.

I got the license plate and the guy who I spoke with said his name was the same name of the registered owner of the car. He had no valid DL, a few battery and drug charges BUT was legally allowed to own firearms. Who knows what his buddies records looked like.

Bottom line is he had a violent gangs symbol tattooed on his face, chances are he had been involved or will be involved in nefarious stuff and it will catch up to him. I DON'T want people like that to have guns that can be linked back to me. As I said in my previous post, I have many friends who are cops so I am cautious what I am "putting out on the street". Will they just get it from someone else? Probably, but imagine if my friend dies at the hands of a guy I sold my gun too?

Its my right to ask and your right to refuse and buy it from someone else.
 
This thread is unbelievable. We don't need any paperwork on intrastate gun sales, period, unless you are in a State (of confusion :D) that requires it.

The KISS Formula will work well here! ;)
 
They took the word of the criminal that the transfer was done legally?

How would a BoS prove it was done legally? What are the requirements in that state for the transfer to be legal?
Click to expand...

Its FL, the requirements are "the seller not knowingly sell to a Felon and the buyer not purchase if they are a felon". That is about it.

The "suspect" was legally allowed to own the gun because at the time he had not been charged or convicted of any crime. However there concern was that my friend (the cop) lent him the gun or knowingly sold it for the intention of impersonating.

IMO the way it was handling shows an inept and poor mgmt and treating of the Departments officers but the particular Dept, Chief and city Mgr are pretty well known for treating their LEO's like garbage. not really the point though, the point was the butt pain my friend and his family endured waiting for it to straighten itself out and hoping he was not black listed from becoming a FL police officer again and loosing a career that was well into his half way mark.
 
Really the bottom line is this, Some people keep it and some people don't, some people require it and some people don't.

I require a BoS. I am up front and post it in my ads or auctions. If you do not like the requirements of the sale you move along, if you are fine with it then we make a deal. There is NO infringement on your rights by a private seller requiring one. That's like me inviting someone into my home and when they start screaming about how they hate me and I tell them to leave they claim a violation of their 1st Amendment.Now if the government is saying one is required then that is a different story.
 
HRnightmare said:
Its FL, the requirements are "the seller not knowingly sell to a Felon and the buyer not purchase if they are a felon". That is about it.

The "suspect" was legally allowed to own the gun because at the time he had not been charged or convicted of any crime. However there concern was that my friend (the cop) lent him the gun or knowingly sold it for the intention of impersonating.

IMO the way it was handling shows an inept and poor mgmt and treating of the Departments officers but the particular Dept, Chief and city Mgr are pretty well known for treating their LEO's like garbage. not really the point though, the point was the butt pain my friend and his family endured waiting for it to straighten itself out and hoping he was not black listed from becoming a FL police officer again and loosing a career that was well into his half way mark.
Click to expand...

That...just doesn't make any sense to me. So IA was worried that their officer was an accomplice in an impersonation case because he legally transferred a gun to somebody? But if he had a voluntarily generated homemade piece of paper saying he transferred the gun they would have shook his hand and walked away instead of treating him like a criminal? :confused:

My take-away lesson here is...don't work for that department.
 
I gave up asking for receipts years ago. People know the law and don't want to give you anything anymore with all of the identity theft going on. If the guy shows me his license and, or permit, he's good to go.
In 40 years I never had a problem, and probably would have lost that stuff anyway with all of the hurricanes in the past 25 years. Most all my photos and documents were lost and the ones that could be replaced, were.
My daughter myself and just about all my friends have had their identity hacked, I would never give anything with important data to anyone.
Even a Sherriff who I used to trade with, never asked for anything.
 
I always find the jailhouse lawyers amusing. "No". Well, it's just as easy to put a hold on a material witness as it is a suspect. If they think you could possibly have any information, especially on a case involving the shooting of a police officer, they will trample your rights. You can bitch and moan all you want later, but in the meanwhile, they will do whatever it takes to get that info from you.

I've seen cases where a person was shifted from precinct to precinct to keep his lawyer from finding his whereabouts. Again, you can whine and complain later, but in the meanwhile, they have you.

I served 40 years in law enforcement, I hope to never enter another police station, courthouse, or jail again. They are generally nasty, filthy places, populated with nasty, filthy people.
 
This thread is unbelievable. We don't need any paperwork on intrastate gun sales, period, unless you are in a State (of confusion ) that requires it.

The KISS Formula will work well here!
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!..the antis paranoia seems to have taken hold very well with some folks.
It is not required, it is not illegal, and it serves no purpose
 
For all of you who claim tracing serial numbers is just a TV phenomenon, here's real life proof. The gun used to kill the 2 NYC police officers has been traced back to a 1996 sale. They contacted the original owner and want to know if he had it, or had disposed of it, and to whom. This is the reason I keep signed bill's of sale from a buyer. No, I've never been contacted myself, and I hope I never am.

Please, no comments that it's just because LEO's were killed. They have the ability to do it, period.
Click to expand...

You do realize they haven't traced the gun?
An Asian man purchased the gun, according to the official, but that buyer told investigators this week that he gave the weapon to a cousin. Federal investigators are now trying to determine what happened to the gun after that.

“We’ll try to piece together the trail of that gun,” the police official said, “from hand to hand, from person to person, to find out how it gets to him.”
Click to expand...


Also, and I don't mean this wrong but I think some of you may be delusional if you believe a BOS will keep the law at bay if they come asking about a gun you sold.
Here is a FACT, I can walk out to my shop RIGHT NOW. And wright out a BOS for EVERY gun in my safe, and get some buddies to sign everyone of them with someone else's name......so I could TOMORROW produce a BOS for every gun I still own!!!! I could go even further, my mother is a notary, so TOMORROW I could have a NOTARIZED BOS for every gun in my safe.
Sorry, but I don't think the average LEO is so trusting, and frankly lazy as to take your word for it walk off and go "well that trail went cold, only 127,835 Joe Smith's to check out?"
 
DeepSouth said:
You do realize they haven't traced the gun?
[/B]

Also, and I don't mean this wrong but I think some of you may be delusional if you believe a BOS will keep the law at bay if they come asking about a gun you sold.
Here is a FACT, I can walk out to my shop RIGHT NOW. And wright out a BOS for EVERY gun in my safe, and get some buddies to sign everyone of them with someone else's name......so I could TOMORROW produce a BOS for every gun I still own!!!! I could go even further, my mother is a notary, so TOMORROW I could have a NOTARIZED BOS for every gun in my safe.
Sorry, but I don't think the average LEO is so trusting, and frankly lazy as to take your word for it walk off and go "well that trail went cold, only 127,835 Joe Smith's to check out?"
Click to expand...
The mere fact that they were able to trace it back almost 20 years to an owner says a lot to me. And they're not done yet.

As far as phony bills of sale, the point is you also have the purchaser sign it that they received it. That coupled with the info from their driv. lic. or permit should help take the onus off of you.

Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone who doesn't care to do this, obviously it's not going to happen. I'm just stating why I feel it's a good idea.
 
So there is no answer this this question, if you follow the law and see a valid drivers license in FL, and ask if the person is prohibited and they say no, That's it, regardless of all the commentary, that's all you are required to do.
No one ever found my guns taken in a robbery of my home some 40 years ago, and I know for a fact that the people responsible died about 20 years ago. So who knows how diligent anyone really is when it comes to tracing them, especially when you leave the state.
There is an online site that allows you to check the serial # of the gun, to see that it is not a stolen weapon, or used in a robbery, etc. So you can do your check right there on premises and have a clear head about what you are buying.
 
Last edited:
Speedo66 said:
The mere fact that they were able to trace it back almost 20 years to an owner says a lot to me. And they're not done yet.

As far as phony bills of sale, the point is you also have the purchaser sign it that they received it. That coupled with the info from their driv. lic. or permit should help take the onus off of you.

Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone who doesn't care to do this, obviously it's not going to happen. I'm just stating why I feel it's a good idea.
Click to expand...
If the manufacturer/importer, any intermediate distributors, and the FFL are all still in business and it has been less than 20 years since the original sale, finding the name of the initial owner is trivial. That's all that they did. No more, no less. If it's through the NYS/NYC registration database, it should be even easier than that. I haven't read the article so I don't know if it's a New York gun.

Matt
 
The mere fact that they were able to trace it back almost 20 years to an owner says a lot to me. And they're not done yet.
Click to expand...
It means the have the gun, then get the serial number call the manufacture and ask them what dealer they sent it to, then they call the dealer and ask who they sold it to.........then the paper work normally ends which is why I bet they are done.

And getting DL info and such is more than the is on the average persons BOS, and if you have the additional info that could easily be a game changer. But their's a lot of people who wouldn't buy said gun if you wanted their personal info, which is reasonable IMO. But remember signatures are worthless alone, I can sign Jack Reacher to something, but I can assure you I'm not Jack Reacher.
 
Speedo66 said:
they will trample your rights
Click to expand...

Rights are not important and do not need to be exercised or understood, just do what the nice government agents say because they will do whatever they want by force anyway, legal or not. :rolleyes:

That's not the kind of attitude I expect to find on THR.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
Senators near a deal on background checks for most private gun sales
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
Ignition Override
I
SASS#23149
  • Locked
How do YOU sell a handgun privately??
2
Replies
40
Views
2K
jeffkirchner
J
G
  • Locked
Bill of sale info?
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
125
Views
5K
dogtown tom
dogtown tom
P
  • Locked
Question about private transactions
Replies
8
Views
522
Bigjake
B
B
  • Locked
How long to keep C&R records
Replies
4
Views
2K
EOD Guy
E
Back
Top