Do You Keep Records of Private Sales?

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This thread really has run its course as this topic usually does. At this point it is going nowhere.

If you want to ask for, sign etc... a bill of sale do so. If you do not that is OK too. If you do not want to do business with someone who does not share your approach then don't.

In the end people should follow federal and state law which apply and then conduct business as they see fit.
 
I'm still curious as to how a law abiding citizens finger prints show up on a gun that he/she sold? That gun may have passed through several people's hands and yet the only prints on it are from the law abiding citizen of whom the authorities have no finger print records? I'm sorry, I'm just not buying that argument, especially if that gun has moved from one state to another.

That being said, I will never do a private sale to someone I don't personally know, and I will (99.9% sure on this) never buy a gun from someone I don't personally know. I don't own guns in order to sell them. If I do want to get rid of a gun I just take it to my local dealer and sell it to them, then they can do whatever they want with it.
 
I shouldn't have to ask for proof that someone is allowed to buy my gun, we have laws against them buying if they aren't.

If your ATF guy tries to buy my gun and isn't a resident of my state, HE is committing a crime & should be arrested.

Neither my state nor the Federal government have a law stating I need to KEEP any record of any firearm sales so being the law abiding citizen that I am, I don't.
 
counsel - you are trying to make a case where there is no need (at least in most states) and trying to determine every "what if" scenario that can happen. That is impossible, and is not necessary. What if you get hit by a potato chip truck today? What if someone shoots you with a gun stolen or not? what if the sky really IS falling? You can drive yourself insane trying to imagine all of this, but here in FL, what I do is all that is legally required. YOU, if you really are a lawyer, should know you do what the law requires, nothing less and nothing more.
 
I'm still curious as to how a law abiding citizens finger prints show up on a gun that he/she sold? That gun may have passed through several people's hands and yet the only prints on it are from the law abiding citizen of whom the authorities have no finger print records? I'm sorry, I'm just not buying that argument, especially if that gun has moved from one state to another.

I'm very much a law abiding citizen, but I can guarantee you that the FBI has my fingerprints, and the state of Utah probably does also. I've had to have several background checks run for employment along with the CFP background check through the state. I was informed by the company running the initial background check for employment that if the FBI didn't already have my fingerprints, that they would now. (Not arguing with the rest of your statement.)

Going back a couple of days....

Oh, btw, if I'm that John Q. Citizen, I'm going to sue the crap out of the cops and the DA and all the other morons who made my life a living hell for no other reason than they were idiots who don't know the differnce between a law-abiding citizen and a felon.

Unless you have some evidence that the cops and DA acted maliciously, you'll get laughed out of court. At least in Utah, the DA would have absolute immunity and the cops would have qualified immunity. That means that the suit against the DA would be a non-starter and the cop would have the opportunity to assert qualified immunity and you would have to prove that they were either negligent or malicious in the performance of their duties.

I'm on your side on this one, but needed to correct a few things.

Going back to the OP's question, in the post he asked about a Bill of Sale. I don't do a bill of sale, but I do keep track of sold-date, serial number. I do verify ID, to make sure the person is a resident of Utah. Before meeting them, I ask if they're prohibited in any way from owning a firearm and take their word for it. I ask again when meeting and I have no problem walking away from a deal, either buying or selling, if something smells funny. I also meet somewhere public and never go alone. If it's a C&R firearm that I'm selling, I have to get their name, DL/other-ID number, and address (or simply a copy of their FFL if they have one). So, I guess I keep a record of private sales, just not a bill-of-sale.

Matt
 
I'm very much a law abiding citizen, but I can guarantee you that the FBI has my fingerprints, and the state of Utah probably does also. I've had to have several background checks run for employment along with the CFP background check through the state. I was informed by the company running the initial background check for employment that if the FBI didn't already have my fingerprints, that they would now. (Not arguing with the rest of your statement.)

Going back a couple of days....



Unless you have some evidence that the cops and DA acted maliciously, you'll get laughed out of court. At least in Utah, the DA would have absolute immunity and the cops would have qualified immunity. That means that the suit against the DA would be a non-starter and the cop would have the opportunity to assert qualified immunity and you would have to prove that they were either negligent or malicious in the performance of their duties.

I'm on your side on this one, but needed to correct a few things.

Going back to the OP's question, in the post he asked about a Bill of Sale. I don't do a bill of sale, but I do keep track of sold-date, serial number. I do verify ID, to make sure the person is a resident of Utah. Before meeting them, I ask if they're prohibited in any way from owning a firearm and take their word for it. I ask again when meeting and I have no problem walking away from a deal, either buying or selling, if something smells funny. I also meet somewhere public and never go alone. If it's a C&R firearm that I'm selling, I have to get their name, DL/other-ID number, and address (or simply a copy of their FFL if they have one). So, I guess I keep a record of private sales, just not a bill-of-sale.

Matt
Thanks for your reply, I understand and agree with everything you said. I'm not sure what line of work you are in that requires finger prints but I have yet to work for anyone who required my finger prints. I've had many a background check done prior to employment but never have I been asked for finger prints. I think this is the norm for almost all employement in the US (that is, NOT required to provide finger prints, at least I hope this is the case).

Now, I have been finger printed because this is required by law to get a CWP. So, my prints are there for all the law enforcement agencies to have and access. That being said, had I never applied for a CWP then who has my finger prints? They are not in anyone's database, nor should they be, right?

All this being said, I seriously doubt that if your prints (yes you, because it appears to me that you have sold to private parties) show up on a gun you sold to someone then you were being set up from the beginning and you should not have sold the gun, right? How does a gun go through many different hands and only have your pints on it? Is everyone wearing gloves? Did the person you sold the gun to have gloves on at the time of the sale? If yes, don't you think that is a little suspicious?

And as for law enforecment going right to a judge for a search warrant without doing some basic investigation first, just BASIC stuff, you bet your ass I'm gonna buy the best, LAW FIRM in town in order to get that dumbass judge fired who issued a search warrant without asking a few questions first like "why do you want a search warrant on a guy who has no criminal record, and lives 500 miles away from the crime scene?" Then the idiot cops say "well, because his prints are on the murder weapon, that's why." Then the judge shoud say "did you bring him in for questioning, does he have a motive, where was he during the crime, in other words, do you have anything else?" If the cops say "no, that's all we got." then the judge should say something along these lines:

"GTF OUT OF HERE. Give me something else before you ask me to provide a search warrant to person who has no motive, no criminal history and as far as we know, because you idiots have not done your job, was no where close to the crime scene when the crime happened."

Again, if this is happening in our society, or if this can happen, then we all are in trouble because the cops are idiots and the judge is no damn better.
 
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I don't sell any guns I buy. Have no fear, follow the law, destroy the paper trail, and stop projecting about all the awful things that are going to happen in your life.
 
Thanks for your reply, I understand and agree with everything you said. I'm not sure what line of work you are in that requires finger prints but I have yet to work for anyone who required my finger prints. I've had many a background check done prior to employment but never have I been asked for finger prints. I think this is the norm for almost all employement in the US (that is, NOT required to provide finger prints, at least I hope this is the case).

I'm a software engineer for a subsidiary of a large financial institution. If you knew what I actually worked on, you'd be asking "You're running a background check on him why?" I have absolutely no access to any classified, customer-specific, or sensitive information. But apparently it's the law. Now if my CFP could waive that background check like it does for gun purchases, I'd be happy. :)

Matt
 
Do You Keep Records of Private Sales?

For guns I've sold, yes, at least for a good length of time. After a few years, however, my previously-owned-gun-records all seem to vanish. If the weapon hasn't been used in a crime by then, I figure I'm OK. Anyway, I now only sell guns on consignment through a dealer or other secure methods.

For guns purchased, well, that's different.
 
VAgunner said:
In the end people should follow federal and state law which apply and then conduct business as they see fit.

This sounds like good common sense to me! ;) YMMV.It certainly has on this thread. From paranoia to blase' and all the points in between! :D

That's America.
 
Originally Posted by guyfromohio
I'm trying to find a post where not checking ID was encouraged. I think most, including myself, are stating that they verify age and residency and make a good faith effort to not knowingly sell to a prohibited person.


Elkins45,
You can find one just two posts above yours (#162).

You left out this part from my quote (#162) from the preceding post #161:

oneounceload:LOOK at a ID all you want; try to record data and the sale stops right now.

For shame Elkins, sniping a sound bite! :D
 
A sidebar point, but this is directed at Lycidius.

As for finger prints, I'm a law abiding citizen yet I've gone through perhaps as many as 10 rounds of fingerprints and background checks requiring same. Anyone in the modern military gets a clearance and that requires it. A concealed carry permit requires it. Employers in sensitive areas/jobs require it. Professional licenses (doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, etc.) require it. So, you get the idea.

Whether it's by chance or setup would matter not. Fingerprint lifting technology is quite advanced and a good print can remain on a blued gun service for quite some time. You can be 100% certain that if your fingerprints were on a murder weapon at a crime scene, you'd be visited by the cops. That is elementary. They'd want to know whether it was YOU who dun it, or who you sold/gave the gun to, or when you reported it stolen. I'd pray you'd have those records. If not, suddenly YOU have become the prime suspect, absent any other leads. This was just an example mind you. It is rare that prints would last may people handling a gun over time... but that's not the point which is obviously being missed.

As for how warrants are issued, and how police execute warrants, it's quite obvious you're mistaken. You're also not going to be able to sue the DA or cops, nor will you be getting judges fired or disrupting the police department for doing their jobs.

Regarding hiring a LAW FIRM to represent you... felony criminal defense STARTS at around $10,000, and can quickly get into $30,000-$50,000 and more. Some cases can even hit 6 digits. Seems to me a lot easier to just keep some paperwork of transactions.

Perhaps I'm overly risk averse. But having the experiences in law and the military I've had, I've seen what can happen to good or otherwise innocent people. On balance, weighing the difficulty with record keeping versus not, and the consequence of either, I stand by my practice.

This thread has perhaps run its course, but I have yet to hear any reasons other than "I'm not required to" as to good personal rationale for not keeping said records. There are lots of things the law doesn't require me to do, but it's a good idea to do it (brushing my teeth, exercise, prayer, car maintenance, saving, BUYING A GUN, etc.).
 
leadcounsel said:
Perhaps I'm overly risk averse. But having the experiences in law and the military I've had, I've seen what can happen to good or otherwise innocent people. On balance, weighing the difficulty with record keeping versus not, and the consequence of either, I stand by my practice.


You certainly are. But with your profession and your background, I can appreciate your thinking. Until 1968, none of this nonsense was necessary. It's a severe infringement of 1791.

For the most part, I'm singing to the choir here. So I will shut up on this thread. Au Revoir. :)
 
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No that's exacty what does matter, you've been asked to back up your argument real life events and the fact is you can't.
So you say it doesn't matter, it's not "blah blah blah" it's someone who disagrees with you asking for FACTS.
You want to win me over? You can do that with FACTS.
Asking for "STATS" on such matters is absurd and would take hours of vague research... topics such as "wrongful convictions" comes to mine, or perhaps "guns sold and reported stolen," or various other topics... if you'd like to review it yourself. I have better things to do, as even after hours of my time I doubt it would sway anyone, nor do I really care that much other than to engage in this mildly amusing discussion.

For a variety of reasons, this "low level" stuff - insurance fraud, wrongful murder conviction, etc. (stuff that is very impactful on the individual but barely reported if at all), it just doesn't make any 'research-worthy' records.

Court records aren't generally cited until they hit high level appellate courts so that's useless. Everything doesn't make the newspapers and even then it doesn't always hit the internet. And going back over two decades is difficult using even the best online tools...

In short, some here are wanting me to spend my afternoon to prove what should otherwise be quite obvious possibilities with significant consequences of not checking IDs and keeping basic records. I'm simply going to prove it to you. Nor do I care to "win" you over... but instead perhaps anyone reading this will weigh your positions and mine, and make an intelligent decision about their own practices.

Edited to add some light research. Out of curiosity I looked up wrongful fingerprint conviction and got pages of hits, much of it through the Innocence Project. Prints stay around on a lot of items... Keep in mind that these people suffered through a felony murder trial, tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, ruined lives, prison, etc. for YEARS until their case was overturned... and those are the lucky ones. Many never have their cases overturned. Sure would be nice to be able to produce a piece of paper with a name and information on it to say, "No officer, I sold that gun to Jim Swanson five years ago - here's his information and signature and a copy of the email discussion we had, along with a copy of the ad I had placed." Should be enough to distance YOU from that weapon, severing your ties to it. Without it, you'd be in worse shape. Again, just a worst case scenario example, for which I have been perhaps trained to be overly cautious because I've had a LOT of clients sitting across from me suffering from worst case scenarios in their lives.
http://www.livescience.com/9341-real-crime-1-000-errors-fingerprint-matching-year.html
http://californiainnocenceproject.o...take-leads-to-wrongful-conviction-in-indiana/
http://floridainnocence.org/content/?tag=fingerprints
 
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Morley, I think most folks do the same, that is keeping a little log that says they sold their xyz gun on Monday such and such a date. I do as well, but I keep no log as to name or other personal data. The only reason I do it is for my insurance rider.
 
In the City of New York before the SAFE Act.... if one wanted to purchase a handgun in a private sale and then register the gun with the NYPD, you had to present a Notarized bill of sale. Now you have to go through an FFL holder.
Pete
 
Asking for "STATS" on such matters is absurd and would take hours of vague research... topics such as "wrongful convictions" comes to mine, or perhaps "guns sold and reported stolen," or various other topics... if you'd like to review it yourself. I have better things to do, as even after hours of my time I doubt it would sway anyone, nor do I really care that much other than to engage in this mildly amusing discussion


In short, some here are wanting me to spend my afternoon to prove what should otherwise be quite obvious possibilities with significant consequences of not checking IDs and keeping basic records. I'm simply going to prove it to you. Nor do I care to "win" you over... but instead perhaps anyone reading this will weigh your positions and mine, and make an intelligent decision about their own practices.

Are you honestly saying asking my asking for facts to support your arguement is "absurd" if you make the arguement you have to back it up, not tell me to.....
I have yet to see you show any facts, your entire arguement is based on what if's and theories. Theories and what if's are useless if you can't back them up, and honestly it appears to me that you can't.
And I'll be straight with you, if you can show me a few case where people have been arrested, locked up, or had warrants served because they couldn't prove they legally sold a gun then I will in fact change my mind.....but I bet youll find nothing...... Wonder why?


If it's so obvious, why is so hard to prove?
I have weiged the options, I could keep books like a FFL, not buy or sell some guns I want because people aren't willing to give me (a total stranger in some cases) the same info an identity theif wants. OR I could realize that of the millions of FTF firearm transactions in the country every year I have never heard of anyone getting in any sort of legal trouble at all for record keeping issues, lack of record keeping. I've never heard of any legal trouble that someone could have gotten out of by haveing sales records. Of the millions of FTF gun transfers I'll be surprised if 1 in a million have legal trouble that could have been prevent by paperwork, so now the odds are now similar to htting the lottery. Guess what, I don't play the lottery either.

I'll also I've never been fingerprinted, even for my CCW.
 
Deepsouth: I have weiged the options, I could keep books like a FFL, not buy or sell some guns I want because people aren't willing to give me (a total stranger in some cases) the same info an identity theif wants. OR I could realize that of the millions of FTF firearm transactions in the country every year I have never heard of anyone getting in any sort of legal trouble at all for record keeping issues, lack of record keeping. I've never heard of any legal trouble that someone could have gotten out of by haveing sales records. Of the millions of FTF gun transfers I'll be surprised if 1 in a million have legal trouble that could have been prevent by paperwork, so now the odds are now similar to htting the lottery. Guess what, I don't play the lottery either.

I'll also I've never been fingerprinted, even for my CCW.

More hyperbole... odds huh? Okay, lets discuss odds. Odds of you being the victim of a violent crime and ever needing your carry piece is nearly zero. So why bother carrying?

Not suggesting you "keep records like an FFL." Why insist on hyperbole to make a point. Name, date, location, serial number, gun make/model, any notes. A spreadsheet with a few entries requires about 1 minute of time and lasts forever. Saving the email/pdf of any buy/sell ad. Paperwork takes about 1 inch of space in my safe. And in the admittedly very rare case I'd need it, it's there.

My spreadsheet records by the way is also quite helpful. I've had to refer back to it for personal reasons to recall how many magazines came with a particular gun for inventory purposes, or when I moved I couldn't locate a particular gun, and ultimately did find it. Notes I keep about a gun and any details (new springs installed on xyz date, repaired on xyz date, etc). Purchase price. List of accessories for a particular gun (holsters, mags, scopes, etc.). I also keep an inventory of ammo on hand. A quick summary of my total investments etc. So if I see a sale on an item, I can quickly look to see my inventory and see where I am short... Name/address of my insurer. Etc. etc. etc.

I've digressed... but this all goes back to the OP of keeping a bill of sale or some other evidence of the transaction, which is all important. I boil mine down to an easily digestible spreadsheet. I don't gamble with important things, like the off chance I'd be wrongly accused of a crime if a gun I traded away or bought was linked to a crime... I can easily say who/where/when that transaction occurred.... but I do play the lotto... go figure...

Some don't. Such is life.

I will concede that you should NOT provide excess detail or sensitive information such as DL #, SS#, or even exact address (yes, I know that stuff is searchable online). I've come to the conclusion that you are more likely of Identity theft or a burglary by providing that precise information. That is a far greater risk than the risks I've mentioned. Life is full of risks I suppose, to each their own.
 
BINGO DeepSouth!...Some folks just don't get it and want to play "What If" games which do nothing but drive themselves crazy trying to justify something that has nothing to back it up

Lawyer - you do what makes YOU happy; simple fact is you are over complicating something you can't back up with facts and in most states, simply isn't needed, required or against the law. Follow the law - nothing less, nothing more and that way you'll keep your BP in the normal range
 
More hyperbole... odds huh? Okay, lets discuss odds. Odds of you being the victim of a violent crime and ever needing your carry piece is nearly zero. So why bother carrying?
Honestly, I maily carry because I like guns. I don't really carry anticipating ever needing it which is why most people here would chastise me for spending to much time and money on gear and not enough on training.



Name, date, location, serial number, gun make/model, any notes. A spreadsheet with a few entries requires about 1 minute of time and lasts forever. Saving the email/pdf of any buy/sell ad. Paperwork takes about 1 inch of space in my safe. And in the admittedly very rare case I'd need it, it's there.
And the above, other than the emails and adds is useless without below
will concede that you should NOT provide excess detail or sensitive information such as DL #, SS#, or even exact address

Like I said the average Bill of sale is very easily forged. I could have a notarized BOS for every gun I currently own by the time the sun comes up, Leo's know this to. Which is why it's worthles with out the info.
 
More hyperbole... odds huh? Okay, lets discuss odds. Odds of you being the victim of a violent crime and ever needing your carry piece is nearly zero. So why bother carrying?

And the odds of you selling a gun that is used in a crime AND traced back to you is even more remote, so why continue with your imaginary what ifs?
You have better odds of hitting the Powerball
 
Anybody want to start a discussion on abortion? How about gay marriage or maybe immigration? It seems to me we will be equally unlikely to change each other's opinions on those topics as we have been on this one.

Might as well all declare ourselves winners and stick a fork in this one.
 
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