Do you REALLY want to rack a shotgun when you hear a bump in the night?

["yote"]

What happened to the dogs?? Break in to my house and you will have
2 big canines to deal with. An 85lb choc lab and an 80lb Oorang Airedale.
They will keep you VERY occupied while I load. (they are very good at
cleaning up the crime scene after I shoot the badguys. If only I could get
them to eat the crooks tennis shoes then there would be no evidence!).

 

[treeprof]

If circumstances dictate that one has to operate the slide and chamber a round in order to make ready, so be it - few of us have the latitude to really optimize our home defenses. And, it may well serve a dual purpose in bringing the firearm into action and dissuading an intruder intent on burgling. But actually counting on the sound to provide some kind of deterrent effect is tactically unsound, and suggests that little serious consideration has been given to the remainder of one's defensive plan. Some arguments can be made in favor of making the BG aware of your presence in some circumstance, perhaps as a deterrent and possibly to reduce liability if laws don't recognize one's home as one's castle, for example. But if that's the plan, then it is best done verbally.

I have heard the "there is no sound more intimidating that racking a pump shotgun" argument so often in gun stores and on the internet that it's hard to give it any credibility.

 

[SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI]

I don't put much stock in the rack the slide business either. They may not even hear it anyway. I keep my shotgun loaded at all times, with a round in the chamber, and the safety on. I can reach over, grab it by the buttplate, have it shouldered and ready to fire in about 10 seconds. I don't want to waste time fumbling around for shells or having to rack the slide. While I'm covering the locked bedroom door my wife can dial 911.

 

[jobu07]

10 seconds is a long time.... sit and watch a clock for 10 seconds. I imagine it takes you less than that to ready the gun if it's next to you I keep a remington 870 20 gauge youth model (it's so compact it's unbelievable) loaded with one int he tube. Here's to hoping we never have to use them.

 

[patent]

I pretty much agree that your response depends on your circumstances. If I had a rottweiler sitting in the house, I would see little point in racking the shotgun. In my circumstances it is most likely my wife and kids and I will all be sleeping on the second floor. I would probably rack the SG loudly, and then shoot anything coming up the stairs. I know that gives away my position, but that doesn't bother me, as I figure the crook I need to worry about already knows where I am.

Mentally, I prepare for a couple different kinds of home invasions.

(1) Dumb kid, looking for booze/drug money. Police reports for my neighborhood indicate this is the most likely situation I have to face.I figure most of these who hear a shotgun will head on out. I know there is at least some risk to racking the shotgun, but given that I most likely expect to shoot anything headed up the stairs, mentally I need to know that the thing coming up means me harm. If I rack it and he turns to come up the stairs, I know all I need to. I'm sure it seems unnecessary to some, but I expect that I would need that extra knowledge before I would be comfortable taking the shot, and I don't want to hesitate if it comes down to that. I believe that there is a chance I would hesitate if I haven't given off that warning, and I figure that hesitation is more deadly than revealing the position.

(2) Druggie. Will hear the rack (possibly) and not care. Again, some risk in revealing position, but most of these aren't thinking well enough to take full advantage of that knowledge.

(3) Normal burglar. Will leave upon hearing the noise, would usually rather find an easier house to burglarize, especially if he has been inside more than 15 seconds, as he will realize I don't have much worth stealing anyway. (that 10 year old 20 inch television probably ain't worth dieing for, me or him)

(4) Someone who means us harm. Probably knows where we are anyway, so I don't see a great loss in confirming it. In this situation, I especially can't afford any hesitation. I feel that racking the shotgun tells me more about him than it tells him about me, and I want that information.

So, I expect I would rack it, though I'll leave myself some room to change strategy in the real world, should it ever come crashing in.

patent

 

[PATH]

I concur with patent on this one. I'm a fellow who would rack it. I also would yell the police have been called. The cell phone is next to the bed all the time. If your house is not too big then the bad guy has an idea where you'd be anyway.

The sound of a shotgun being racked produces a severe pucker factor as far as I know. When a baddie comes on then the next thing he will hear is boom!

Dogs that are barkers are also good. Best that a dog let you know someone is about seems more important than dog attacking bad guy. I'll depend on my dog to alert me but not to defend me.

In the end it is my life and thus my call. I presume everyone will do what they think will best protect themselves and their loved ones!

 

[Tamara]

You know, I know I'm going to be branded a "Yeehawist" for this, but let's turn a couple of these assumptions back around:

1) Yes, Awerbuck is right: if it's a hit squad of SWAPO terrorists and you rack your shotgun, they won't flee; instead, they'll just fire their AK's through the wall at your now-revealed position. The intruder should hear no sound before you yell "VC in the wire! Blow your claymores!" With all due respect to Mr. Awerbuck, at least in my neck of the woods, nighttime petty burglars outnumber nighttime SWAPO hit squads by about, oh, several zillion to none.

2) You are crazy if you don't call the cops. You are crazy if you give away your position. Hmmm... Riddle me this: how the heck am I going to call the cops without giving away my position? I am not going to be whispering, I am going to be enunciating loudly and clearly; I don't want Suzy Dispatcher to dick things up because she couldn't tell my "C's" from my "V's". This will not "give away my position?"

3) Remember that "Problem #2" thing that El Tejon always rattles on about? I really don't want to shoot anybody, because I really don't like the legal aftermath of a shooting. Especially shooting a teenage burglar from my carefully concealed ambush position. I'd rather, given the odds of it being a burglar versus the odds of it being a terrorist hit squad, let them know that I'm home, armed, and on the phone with Johnny Law before I can see them or they can see me. If they keep coming after receiving that information, then you can pretty well assume that they need shootin'.

We know leave Yeehawism Central and return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of Domicile Interior Nocturnal Close Quarters Combat Tactics (DINCQCT).

 

[pwrtool45]

You know, I know I'm going to be branded a "Yeehawist" for this, but let's turn a couple of these assumptions back around:

1) Yes, Awerbuck is right: if it's a hit squad of SWAPO terrorists and you rack your shotgun, they won't flee; instead, they'll just fire their AK's through the wall at your now-revealed position. The intruder should hear no sound before you yell "VC in the wire! Blow your claymores!" With all due respect to Mr. Awerbuck, at least in my neck of the woods, nighttime petty burglars outnumber nighttime SWAPO hit squads by about, oh, several zillion to none.

2) You are crazy if you don't call the cops. You are crazy if you give away your position. Hmmm... Riddle me this: how the heck am I going to call the cops without giving away my position? I am not going to be whispering, I am going to be enunciating loudly and clearly; I don't want Suzy Dispatcher to dick things up because she couldn't tell my "C's" from my "V's". This will not "give away my position?"

3) Remember that "Problem #2" thing that El Tejon always rattles on about? I really don't want to shoot anybody, because I really don't like the legal aftermath of a shooting. Especially shooting a teenage burglar from my carefully concealed ambush position. I'd rather, given the odds of it being a burglar versus the odds of it being a terrorist hit squad, let them know that I'm home, armed, and on the phone with Johnny Law before I can see them or they can see me. If they keep coming after receiving that information, then you can pretty well assume that they need shootin'.

We know leave Yeehawism Central and return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of Domicile Interior Nocturnal Close Quarters Combat Tactics (DINCQCT).

Sounds good. I like it. Let's pretend I said this and save me the trouble.

I'm not sure about these "pump gun" thingies, though. Can you modify an 11-87 to make the pump shotgun sound?

 

[TechBrute]

If I thought someone was in the house, the first thing I'd do is secure the kidlet. I'd be doing this with a handgun, as working the shotty and carrying said kidlet would be a feat suitable for taping. Once we're all hunkered down, I'd get the shotgun while waiting for the po-po to show. At that point, there would probably be a crying baby (or two if they come after August) so racking a shotgun would probably be drowned out anyway.

This comes to mind:

Thanks, Oleg.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I guess I could always chamber-load it....I don't think a BG would recognize the sound of a Benelli bolt coming home anyway.

 

[fix]

Yes. I'm chambering a round. I'm not doing it to scare the intruder. I'm doing it so I can shoot the intruder if he makes it past the three dogs in the kitchen. What am I gonna do? Wait till he's standing in front of me?

 

[MrAcheson]

First, most of the people that break into houses are little more than petty crooks. They might be armed, but they might not. They certainly value their lives more than your possessions. They are also likely to be high on their own adrenaline while doing the deed. All this means they are much more likely to run than fight when given a chance. Better to live to steal another day...

Secondly, you know your dwelling better than the other guy. This doesn't give you as much of an advantage as you would like, but it gives you something. If someone breaks into your house, he probably knows you live "upstairs." But where? Which door is the office, the bathroom, your bedroom? He probably doesn't know the floorplan of your house that well. He probably doesn't know the location of furniture well in the dark. However he might know enough to be able to hide and shoot you if you come looking for him so don't do that.

Third, sound is a horrible targeting sense. Especially given that he probably doesn't know the specific layout of your home. So the sound of your slide racking tells him "thats a shotgun." But it doesn't contain any detailed information. If he's lucky he knows "upstairs" or "behind me" or "in the kitchen". But he doesn't know specifics or anything that will let him target you because sound bends and bounces a lot inside a home. He isn't going to be able to pinpoint your location and shoot you just by the sound of your slide racking once. He is going to be able to make a risk assessment and run or raise his guard though. Chances are very good that he will run.

 

[Sleuth]

In reading the responses, one thing come to mind: Most folks either think the outlaws will leave if they know you are home, or they are there to kill you. Why do so many of you think you will be targeted?

I understand that, as a retired Federal Agent, some of the 1,000 folks I put in prison for years would like revenge. Yes, I could be targeted. But what makes so many of the rest of you think the outlaws will stick around for a gunfight? Check the police statistics - the number of home invasions is tiny compared to the number of burglaries.

So, racking the shotgun seperates the common outlaws (cowards) from those who want to kill you. It just eliminated the "good little kid from down the street" who wants your TV. It adds to the justification for the use of deadly force. It further proves your good intent, and "reasonable fear", and increased the probability of "death or serious bodily harm" should you fail to protect yourself..

As far as locating you in a dark house, if a pro, a "hit man", cased your house at all, he/she/it already knows where you are likely to be. But he/she/it also would not enter in such a way as to alert you any way. If you are truely identified as the target of a hit man, you will just go to sleep and never wake up.

All in all, I see no down side to the "rack & warn". A failure on the part of the outlaw to react by leaving is "probable cause".

 

[444]

"Why do so many of you think you will be targeted?"

A couple reasons: #1) I am going to assume that anyone forcing entry into my home is presenting me with a deadly threat. Why ? Because this is my house and I don't have to be fair. Since I can't easily prove otherwise, I am going to assume so. #2) There is no way I can know what a home invader/burgler is thinking or if he is thinking at all. All I can do is apply the logic of a thinking rational person. In other words I put myself in his place. Odds are that he won't think like me, but me is all I have to go on. As I outlined in my previous post I unfortuantely have several teltale signs that I am armed and own a big dog. Anyone who is paying attention would realize that. Even if they arn't paying attention, since I have no way of knowing, I have to assume they were. Again, if they choose to enter the house of an armed man that owns a big dog then I have to assume they are not going to be easily scared away and are willingly putting themselves at risk. 3) I have been the victim of crime several times in the past. I had my house broken into. I had my motorcycle stolen. I had my mountain bike stolen. I had my truck broken into. The home break-in and the car break-in were handled by my cute little Rottweiler. The bicycle theft occured when I was at work. (It was chained up with something just short of a logging chain) and the dog was inside and couldn't get to it. The motorcycle theft occured right outside my bedroom window while I was sleeping inside. So, I have never had someone break-in while I was there, but it isn't out of the relm of my immagination.

Do I think I would be a likely target or do I think the odds of this happening are great ? No, I think I have a better chance of hitting the lottery. But this board is about discussions such as this, so I discuss it. It is about preparation. Odds are that it will never happen, but if it does we have given it some serious thought, exchanged ideas about it with out friends and have a plan of action. We hope we never need it, but if we do, this is better than making it up as we go along.

"All in all, I see no down side to the "rack & warn"."
As I mentioned, I do. A shotgun is a deadly weapon. I am not brandishing the weapon to scare people, I am brandishing the weapon because I am in fear for my life. If I am in fear for my life I want to have the weapon ready to go when I pick it up. I don't want to have to jump through any hoops to make it ready to go when I need it. This to me is no different than carrying a concealed handgun. We have had numerous discussions on this board about carrying a concealed handgun with an empty chamber. Just like this, I disagree with that approach. I think that or any other weapon should be ready to fire when and if you need it. And again, if my handgun is coming out of the holster, I have been presented with a situation where I not only feel that my life is threatened, but my only response to that is to shoot for my life. Otherwise, the gun is not leaving the holster.
It is my belief that many people have specific senarios in their minds about self-defense situation and exactly how they will occur. And they can't accept the fact that there is no script. This is evident by the many posts that make statements presented as facts about exactly what they are going to do and how they are going to do it. Personally, I don't believe in that. I don't believe there is any set way something like this could go down. So, I think you have to prepare for the worst case senario and if it doesn't occur, count yourself fortunate. For this reason I could see it making a lot more sense to have a fully loaded and ready to fire shotgun on hand and if you feel that running the action is going to provide you with some advantage, you run the action and eject a live round on the floor.

 

[Standing Wolf]

No empty chambers at my house.

 

[pwrtool45]

It is my belief that many people have specific senarios in their minds about self-defense situation and exactly how they will occur. And they can't accept the fact that there is no script. This is evident by the many posts that make statements presented as facts about exactly what they are going to do and how they are going to do it. Personally, I don't believe in that. I don't believe there is any set way something like this could go down. So, I think you have to prepare for the worst case senario and if it doesn't occur, count yourself fortunate. For this reason I could see it making a lot more sense to have a fully loaded and ready to fire shotgun on hand and if you feel that running the action is going to provide you with some advantage, you run the action and eject a live round on the floor.

Yep. I agree with that principle. I don't, however, think that most of the "rackers" here would go for intimidation if they were to wake up and find the assailant entering their room. I think that skips straight to the part with the shooting. Taking into account the most probable situations (common thief as opposed to a zombie-ninja hit squad) isn't necessarily a bad idea when formulating a plan (which may or may not survive first contact) either-- just so long as that "plan" isn't the be-all and end-all of your functional ability. We all have "stub" plans (e.g., if someone's shooting at you, you're probably intending to shoot back). I think the key is to not fall into a "scripted act" mentality (as you suggest, such as "I pull my SuperTactical .45 Win Mag, go kneeling and execute a double-tap to the chest"). I wholeheartedly agree that holding to such a mentality is a bad, bad idea. Not only for the reasons you've pointed out, but because of the possible misunderstandings that may happen when a situation partially fits a script and the defender acts on this incomplete understanding of the situation.

I also don't think this necessarily applies to some of the situations offered, such as hearing glass break downstairs. I think the "rack the pump gun" falls into the "stub" plan category and is a perfectly acceptable level of planning. The tactical validity is, of course, completely open for debate.

 

[Dionysusigma]

I don't rack a shotgun.

Iraq an AK.


(sorry, couldn't resist ) I'll get a shottie one of these days when I can afford one, but 'til then it's shot placement with hollowpoints. I've come across a couple of suspicious situations in the last few months, and the very first thing I did was have 911 dialed into my cell phone with my thumb near the "Send" button. Step 2, if necessary, is to press "Send" and alert the authorities. Step 3 is grab the AK. Step 4 is rack the AK. Step 5 is use the AK. Step 6 is get a roll of paper towels, a mop and bucket, and/ or carpet shampoo.

Fortunately for me, I haven't gotten to step 2 yet.

 

[The Rabbi]

I have to agree with the "rack" crowd. THis seems like the tactical equivalent of pulling the handgun when confronted by BG's. No one should count on that alone for deterrent, but generally and characteristically that one act will end the confrontation. It happens often enough to be a reasonable tactic. As for "giving away your position" no one says you have to stay glued to the spot after racking. If you are going to hunt them down then you are already moving, so thats not an issue. But I think that lying in wait and bushwhacking them when they turn the corner will be less convincing to the DA then hunkering down behind the bed.
I like what someone said about the nature of attackers. Sure, it could be a sophisticated hit squad mistaking your house for a drug lord's. But most likely it is some low-life with a very low tolerance for risk (otherwise he would be confronting people on the street or robbing banks).
And even where the BG has cased the place first, things look different in the dark and when the adrenaline is going. Heck, I sometimes have trouble finding the bathroom at 2AM and I have lived here for 5 years.

 

[444]

" I don't, however, think that most of the "rackers" here would go for intimidation if they were to wake up and find the assailant entering their room. "
This is what I am talking about. Let's say you had a really tough day. You are mentally and physically exhausted. Or maybe you took some cold or cough medicine. You ate a big meal, maybe had a little wine with dinner and you go to bed. The possibility exists that you might not hear someone entering your house. Or maybe the guy is just an experienced burgler. If the guy is in your bedroom this is definitely a shoot situation. You jump out of bed to grab your unloaded shotgun ? Oh that's right, in your senario you always have time and the ability to run the action.
I live in a single story house. If someone broke in I would expect them to come through the doors. But what if they don't ? Obviously that means they come through a window. My bedroom window faces the street. It is the second closest window to the driveway. What if some tweeker drove a car right up to my window, hopped on the hood and basically ran right through the window ? Far fetched ? Probably, but truth is stanger than fiction. I have that proven to me all the time. I suppose in that senario I would also have time to run the action while I struggled with the guy ? I obviously am just making up senarios that fit my argument. But, I don't think this makes them any more unlikely to occur than any other senario.

" THis seems like the tactical equivalent of pulling the handgun when confronted by BG's."
I am not sure that is a good idea. I am also not sure if that is even legal where I live. If you produce a gun and the other person doesn't have one, you have escalated force. If he has a gun out and you dont' you are in serious trouble. If he has threatened you verbally with deadly force and has no obvious means of employing deadly force, you are not justified in responding with deadly force.
In other words, If my gun comes out of the holster, it is going to be a five step draw; front sight, press. Otherwise it stays in the holster.

 

[treeprof]

This seems like the tactical equivalent of pulling the handgun when confronted by BG's.

I am not sure that is a good idea.

Me neither, for the reasons mentioned, tho I do practice drawing w/out shooting.

 

[444]

"Me neither, for the reasons mentioned, tho I do practice drawing w/out shooting."

As I was told at a shooting school: "Remember that once you start carrying a gun, every argument or fight you get into is going to involve at least one gun: YOURS." From that point on, you have to take that into consideration. Everything you say and do could possibly escalate into a deadly force situation because there is a gun involved. It is your responsibility to see that it doesn't.


Speaking of senarios, most people mention calling 911. Obviously this is only a good idea if it is safe to do so. In my mind the number one thing to do would be to grab the means to protect myself. If I had a family that would be closely associated with number two which would be to use that means to protect my family. Number three would be to secure the bedroom door with everyone inside. THEN I would find the phone and call 911. I would not grab a phone as my first response to the situation. That would be one of the last things I would do. Now as I mentioned in previous posts. I wouldn't have a lot of time to do this stuff. Someone coming in my front door could be in my bedroom in a matter of seconds. I don't have time to grab a phone, grab a shotgun, and close the door and lock it. If nothing else, I don't have a free hand to manipulate the door and lock because I have a shotgun in one hand and a phone in the other.
Another note on calling 911. If the situation you are in dictates that you try to conceal your position, as long as you are using a landline phone you don't have to say a word. At least here where I live. When you place that call, they know where you are and there will be an immediate police and medical response. I don't know about the police, but the medical response WILL be code 3. Even if you call and hang up, the same thing will occur. I guarentee that if you dial 911 and leave the phone off the hook and they hear you say something like "Get out of my house, I have a gun" every available police officer in that divison's right hand will be reaching for the switch to turn on their lights and siren. Within a couple minutes you will have more police there than you knew were on the department along with two paramedic units, one possibly a fire engine.

 

[treeprof]

As I was told at a shooting school: "Remember that once you start carrying a gun, every argument or fight you get into is going to involve at least one gun: YOURS." From that point on, you have to take that into consideration. Everything you say and do could possibly escalate into a deadly force situation because there is a gun involved. It is your responsibility to see that it doesn't.

Let me clarify my statement. I've been taught the same thing that most people who've received formal training have: the gun stays holstered unless you intend to use it, because once its out, pretty much all your cards have been played. But two instructors that I've trained with have also made the point that in the time it takes to draw and bring your gun on target (fully intending to shoot), the fight could end before you fire if your opponent surrenders or runs, or your line-of-fire gets obstructed by someone or something, or BG1 or his newly materialized friend BG2 make physical contact and interrupt your draw or aim, etc. Andy Stanford covers this in his classes and has you practice drawing and not firing, as well as firing from less than a full draw, the point being that everything abt the draw might be autopilot, but the last act of pulling the trigger needs to be a conscious one. A LEO academy instructor with whom I've trained makes the point that while the police are the most likely to draw a gun with the intention of not immediately firing it, it's good for CCW holders to learn something other than reflexive "draw and fire" as well, principally for the above reasons. None of these situations, of course, equate to drawing a gun as a deterrent or pre-emptive action, a singularly stupid move that is more likely to make things worse than better.

 

[444]

I agree treeprof, and you said it very well.

I realize that there are certainly situatuions where you see that you need to employ deadly force but by the time you draw your weapon the situation has changed. My point (as you noted) is that you only draw your gun with the intention of firing it in defense of your life. You NEVER draw your gun to resolve any situation that doesn't demand the immediate use of deadly force as you so correctly point out.

 

[pwrtool45]

" I don't, however, think that most of the "rackers" here would go for intimidation if they were to wake up and find the assailant entering their room. "
This is what I am talking about. Let's say you had a really tough day. You are mentally and physically exhausted. Or maybe you took some cold or cough medicine. You ate a big meal, maybe had a little wine with dinner and you go to bed. The possibility exists that you might not hear someone entering your house. Or maybe the guy is just an experienced burgler. If the guy is in your bedroom this is definitely a shoot situation. You jump out of bed to grab your unloaded shotgun ? Oh that's right, in your senario you always have time and the ability to run the action.
I live in a single story house. If someone broke in I would expect them to come through the doors. But what if they don't ? Obviously that means they come through a window. My bedroom window faces the street. It is the second closest window to the driveway. What if some tweeker drove a car right up to my window, hopped on the hood and basically ran right through the window ? Far fetched ? Probably, but truth is stanger than fiction. I have that proven to me all the time. I suppose in that senario I would also have time to run the action while I struggled with the guy ? I obviously am just making up senarios that fit my argument. But, I don't think this makes them any more unlikely to occur than any other senario.

Certainly. I agree. I don't have a second floor (or basement) either. If someone breaks in (probably using the large sliding glass doors) then they're going to be quite close to me. It's my opinion, however, that if someone is in close enough proximity to prevent me from racking a shotgun from cruiser ready, then they're too close for the shotgun. That's just me, though. I know how to retain a handgun. I'm not drilled as thoroughly on retaining a longarm. Hence, my decision. (Even given equal retention skills between the two, I think that one would do more shooting and less struggling with a pistol in this situation, but that's just me.)

 

[The Rabbi]

On drawing the gun: In the free state of TN you are justified using your gun to neutralize the threat of death or bodily harm to you or another. I think that is the language of the statute. So if someone yells at me across the street that he hates Jews and he is going to come over and kick my a$$ and proceeds across the street, I am justified in pullling the gun when he gets within a reasonable distance, regardless of whether he is armed or unarmed (lots of people beaten to death). As I said, I would not count on the act of drawing to deter, but in real life that is what happens more times than not.

On the home front: lets take the scenario that you are soundly asleep and wake up at 2AM to find the BG with a knife to your throat and his buddy behind him with a shotgun. I would say you're SOL on this one. The point is you cannot prepare for every eventuality and people dont. It is far more likely that you will have warning of a break-in. It is even more likely that you will never experience any of this unless you have some consideration (live in an expensive neighborhood, are 80 years old and look weak, have a long list of enemies). My point being that common sense and the experience of others here suggests the racking option.