Doctrine Shift Detected: COM and Golden Triangle....

Status
Not open for further replies.

geekWithA.45

Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
11,038
Location
SouthEast PA
Normally, rather than link from THR to my blog, I'd paste in relevant posts. In this case though, all the graphics make that impractical, and I figured it would be of interest and relevance to everyone as food for thought and consideration:


Targeting Data

I've noticed that the orthodoxy of defensive targeting is beginning to shift.
Given that the purpose of defensive handgun fire is to stop the attack as quickly as possible, it stands to reason that our techniques should become as aligned with that goal to the degree that proficiency allows.

Canonically, orthodox targeting advice is as follows:

The rest is here, including some groovy anatomical references:

http://geekwitha45.blogspot.com/2005_01_16_geekwitha45_archive.html#110628237678883921
 
Interesting info for sure!
One thing to consider is another place where one can shoot to stop, that is the pelvis. Its being taught in many circles now that if your com shots don't stop, aim for the pelvic region. It seems its very hard to keep moving around with a smashed pelvic bone.
 
1. IDPA has partially corrected this by moving their -0 zone up 3 or 4 inches. Note also that there is no IDPA penalty for what is really the neck (both targets artificially shorten the neck/head unit--the chin is at about the IPSC head's A-zone).

2. Front Sight Firearms Training Institute (tm or whatever), despite apparently alienating many of us with marketing reminiscent of Scientologists and heavy "build a community" land sales and Country-Club style expensive memberships :barf: , has what I consider to be *almost* the best target. It's anatomically correct with the head/neck, includes max-points for a true "ocular box" or whatever they call it, and the -0 zone is basically the lung/cardiac chamber, like all above the diaphragm. Its size is calculated as "average" for U.S. adults.

Unfortunately, the Front Sight target treats peripheral lung hits the same as cardiac complex hits. I'd use it with a B27 target-size 9, 10, and x-ring centered over the heart, and truncated where the 9 would go below the diaphragm.

Neck shots must generally be very well-centered to work well, even for carotid artery bleed-out.

Somewhere in all my junk, I have an early 1980s-era letter from someone like the New Mexico state Medical Examiner, analyzing the training worth of the B27 target. Low 9-point hits were considered by the author to be of marginal defensive utility, and even 10-ring hits were a bit low compared to the cardiac complex. What I remember from that is the B27's scoring rings should be moved upward something like 8 inches to give us the right training.

I've never been comfortable with any other "defensive" target's lack of a fist-size max-value scoring ring. I've even considered writing an article analyzing the commonly-available targets. Perhaps the academic exercise of it all would put use of those copyrighted scoring schemes into the "fair use" exception.
 
I've had the good fortune of about 40 hours of training with Chuck Taylor.

He advocates an aimed pair center of mass, (Thoracic Cavity) with follow up to cranio ocular if there is a failure to stop the opponent.

He also teaches that the pair, while aimed, needs to be fast enough to shock the CNS into shutdown ala subgun burst.

If the bg absorbs these and doesn't at least sit down, 10 more center of mass hits won't stop him until bp drops sufficiently, etc... . This is a physiological fact.

This leaves direct CNS shutdown as the only alternative.

His moral of the story was a handgun is a pathetic manstopper, so here is the best chance to make it work.
 
Otisimo said:
He also teaches that the pair, while aimed, needs to be fast enough to shock the CNS into shutdown ala subgun burst.

If the bg absorbs these and doesn't at least sit down, 10 more center of mass hits won't stop him until bp drops sufficiently, etc... . This is a physiological fact.

This leaves direct CNS shutdown as the only alternative.

It's also a physiological fact that the only way to reliably achieve CNS shutdown is a hit on the brain stem or neural strip. No one has ever proven that multiple hits in a certain amount of time will cause CNS shut down. Different people go into shock from different stimulus. The body does a pretty good job of protecting the brain stem and ocular nerve. They are both small and hard to hit targets. Ex-sanguination is the most reliable way to stop the fight. There are no magic bullets. It doesn't matter if you're shooting a rifle or a handgun or a shotgun...keep shooting until the subject stops what he was doing.

edited to change Ocular nerve to Neural strip. Thanks to GEM for catching my error.
Jeff
 
Last edited:
Actually, Texas has already migrated that direction...

txpt.gif


I actually use a smaller 'triangle' for my aim point. I try to put all my shots into the triangle formed by the notch in the top of the breastbone and both nipples. (see attached pic...)

Regards
--Dan
 

Attachments

  • triangle guy.bmp
    242.6 KB · Views: 253
Jeff's got it right on the money.

Gunfights with handguns are bad news and unpredictable. You can do everything right, ultra tacto .45 with super vaporizer rounds, two shots 3 inches apart right between his nips, the guy looks back at you while you are trying to figure out if this is a nightmare or not and returns fire and kills you deader'n, well you know. Your opponent is pronounced dead on the scene 15 minutes later.

I'd feel OK with a subgun and some +p+ hirtenberger ball in a 3 round burst or a spray of 5.56, but you never know.

I'd feel even better with a .308 right between the eyes. Behind that lies the on/off switch.

I'd feel best not being there.

I trained with another guy who taught pouring fire center of mass until bad guy goes down but in retrospect this is BS.
 
Those pixz make me a little light headed ;)

I've commented regarding the traditional COM efficacy in the past. Glad to see others also think that is a tad low :soapbox:

There are trade offs. On the plus side there is less material getting in the way "up there" (in some cases a LOT less :what: ) so lack of penetration becomes less of a problem but on the other hand it is an area which is more mobile. Getting a well centered hit could be tricky.

I've heard frequent concerns now regarding how small of a target the spinal cord is and your picture shows that very well but I do not believe that little white circle needs to be directly bisected with a bullet in order for a major effect on the target to be observed. A hit impacting any vertebra has a serious affect on the CNS. I'm not saying it's 100% as good but it's way up there as far as incapacitation is concerned. If my past large game hunting experience is any indication that's actually a real easy target to hit. :eek:
 
I've never been comfortable with any other "defensive" target's lack of a fist-size max-value scoring ring.
Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain's training enterprise) uses a proprietary target and the max value ring is fist sized, or slightly smaller. It is a camo target, but on close inspection one can discern outlines of some internal anatomic structures. However, by design, because of the pattern, it is difficult (I found it impossible) to use the outlined structures as aiming points.
Practically, the smaller triangle that Dan describes works well for me. The NTI has been using that for a number of years now, calling it the "cardiac triangle."
 
Interesting info for sure!
One thing to consider is another place where one can shoot to stop, that is the pelvis. Its being taught in many circles now that if your com shots don't stop, aim for the pelvic region. It seems its very hard to keep moving around with a smashed pelvic bone.

We are talking handguns, not rifles. Even then, pelvis shots don't exactly have a great documented history. Most people who teach pelvis shots do not have the anatomy background to be able to explain where to aim to make a pelvis shot that actually causes a failure of the pelvis. Just because you shoot at the lower abdomen does not mean you will hit the pelvis. Just because you hit the pelvis does not mean it will fail. The largest portion of the pelvis is the ilium and and iliac blade is largely NON-load-bearing. As shown on a recent episode on the forensic analysis of the battle at Little Bighorn, the iliac blade can be hit by a large caliber rifle round, not fail, and the round simply pass through, leaving a hole, but the blade still fully functional. You can hit and even break off chunks of the iliac blade without causing a structural failure that will prevent locomotion. Short of hitting the pubis, ischium, acetabulum (and hence femoral head), femoral neck, greater trochanter of the femur and breaking one of those areas, you aren't likely to have the structural failure needed to preclude locomotion. Even then, the hits on the femur aren't actually pelvis shots, but will serve that same purpose, but the bones must fail. As such, your target area is much smaller than what most folks realize and they no more know exactly where to aim on a clothed person to hit that small target area accurately enough to hit the bones underneath than they know to hit specific organs of a clothed person.

Even if successful, pelvic shots don't stop a person from firing on you. Their arms work just fine.

I've had the good fortune of about 40 hours of training with Chuck Taylor.

He advocates an aimed pair center of mass, (Thoracic Cavity) with follow up to cranio ocular if there is a failure to stop the opponent.

This is a good example of the problems of anatomical descriptions and self defense. People often teach and learn to shoot center mass, only they aren't shooting center mass, but center chest. Center mass shots, if they hit where aimed, will come in at the bottom of the sternum, hitting the liver and/or upper digestive tract, but not the cariopulmonary heart/lung region. COM shots are about 3-5" low for highly desired heart/lung shots.

The problem with COM shots is in the teaching and application. COM is the ideal aiming location to help assure a hit on target, giving the most room for error while still managing a hit, but is not the ideal location for hitting the target. So there is a slight conflict. Do you teach to aim at the point that allows the greatest chance for hitting the target but with less chance of actually stopping the target, or do you teach to aim at locations that will undoubtedly produce better stops, by have much less room for error?
 
I said center of mass (thoracic cavity)

I was unintentionally misleading with "center of mass" which is my thought pattern, not Taylor's or other enlightened instructors thinking. He says and means thoracic cavity which is, the cavity in which the thorax, lungs heart etc... reside.

GI tract shots theoretically would not be as good as thoracic cavity unless there was a tough fecal impaction which became a secondary projectile.
 
Upper Chest, Ocular Cavity., disable shooting hand. best chances there in a rapid fire, DS, intense, sudden gunfight..be prepared for some physical contact as well as movements and multiple opponents.. that's the general nature of modern gunfights..keep it simple!

Augment other skills (hand to hand, evasion, use of cover etc.) to help you get by until the shots can take effect (if you have hit ;) )..BGs seem especially tough and bullet resistant...ask any seasoned cop..

Don't quit in the fight!!!!

Peace..
 
I was taught to shoot for a triangle outlined by the nipples and the adams apple. It seems by expanding the tip of the triangle to the nose, you gain a little more area; but fewer vital structures in that area.

A hit to the teeth or cheek is definitely going to be unpleasant but won't effect a physiological stop. Also, it seems most of the vital structures in the head would actually be above the tip of the triangle.

Of course, all of this assumes a nice full torso shot with multiple options instead of an opponent seeking cover where center mass of what you can see (whether vital or not) may be the best you get.
 
A hit to the teeth or cheek is definitely going to be unpleasant but won't effect a physiological stop.

For correctly using the word "effect" as a verb, you win the Official RyanM Grammar Nazi Award! Congratulations! :D


Oh, and to keep from being totally off-topic, it seems like aiming for the golden triangle would mainly be best at "whites-of-their-eyes" distance. Too far away, though, and it's too small and high a target to hit consistently. At medium ranges, I'd rather aim for mid-chest, and at extended ranges, at the exact center of mass. Hits are always more effective than misses.

At the ranges that most defensive shootings occur, though, the golden triangle does sound like a better choice than CoM.
 
Just got done with a Given's course and he recommended: base of throat to sternum, nipple to nipple.
 
a good friend who is a trauma surgeon has expressed his belief in "the zipper shots" After working at a major hospital seeing lots of bg and gg show up at the hospital in need of help, he says the one in the worst way are those shot from the bottom of the zipper going up. His statement, "Almost any hit to the hips area will drop a guy, none can stand after being shot there. it will not kill him but it will let you get away" and " the guys in the worst state have been shot from zipper to collar"

By his count he has worked on over 200 GSW victims, he was going to give me a better count soon. He is currentlly in Detroit, and will soon be leaving there for Mn,

He also states that a cns hit is great but the area involved is not much bigger than a baseball.

What happens with anyANY other hit is loss of bp.
 
a good friend who is a trauma surgeon

Pete F, you must remember trauma surgeons only see the ones that live long enough to make it to the ER. You posted some good info but it should be taken in context.

geekWithA.45, good blog entry. I enjoyed reading it. This is an interesting topic to me. Good thread.
 
I have a friend thatw orks at the center for human simulation... little do they know how their research is being used.

But it does illustrate your point very well.
 
I'm not sure I like the whole 'triangle' business. I'm reminded of a line from 'The Patriot'

Aim small, miss small

I'm not going to aim for a triangle, I'm going to aim for a small point somewhere on the attacker's body. Maybe this debate should be about where that small point should be.

Jeff
 
The next best thing to CNS is considered loss of blood pressure? I wouldn't discount the importance of blood loss considering the target is more than likely not going to be stationary for that perfect shot.

Just wanted to mention that in my experience this can be accomplished a lot faster with a low lung shot than a high one and a liver hit gets this done in short order.

This is at odds with what we are discussing.

IMO well centered hits are a more desirable focus for our attention. The whole upper-vs-lower debate is just a bit like arguing left-vs-right. Though I am sure that can make a nominal difference also.
 
I find the whole debate sort of academic (in the true sense of being pointless). For the following reasons:
1) Debate assumes that all parts of the anatomy are equally available, ala the target pictures. If BG is crouching, turning, at an angle, partially hidden, etc then all bets are off.
2) I once listed all the factors (or many of them) that go into a shooting. Of those the shooter has control of maybe 2 or 3. Most are well beyond anyone's control.
3) In any stress encounter the eye will gravitate to certain parts. they may be the biggest (i.e. torso), the one with the most light on it, the one moving, etc. Those points will then likely become the target.
4) Stop does not necessarily equate with kill. In Shooting To LIve Fairbairn comments that in his experience a wound to the stomach had an almost universal tendency to make the BG stop and clutch his stomach. I would consider that a stop. Whether his observations remain valid or not is not something I know. But I wouldnt discount his experience out of hand.
5) As far as I know, the best area is through the part between the upper lip and nose all the way through the back of the head. That is a very small area. The head can move very rapidly. If you aim for that you are likely not just to miss but to hit someone else. So it comes down to making a shot that is likely to hit but not disable vs a shot that will disable but is not likely to hit.
 
I'm not going to aim for a triangle, I'm going to aim for a small point somewhere on the attacker's body. Maybe this debate should be about where that small point should be.

Yes!

Being brought up around guns primarily for hunting purposes, I was taught the anatomy of the game I was hunting and where to place shots before being allowed to hunt. The vital zone on a deer is is about hte same size as a humans, maybe even a little smaller. It is not hard to hit provided that you pick out a finite spot to shoot at such as a patch of fur or a geometrical poitn where the rear edge of the leg meets the body. Simply shooting at an area causes more misses than anythig else.

Using featureless carboard silhouette targets seems like a pretty piss poor training aid to me. If you have no reference poitn to the vitals, you are taking a shot in the dark at an area.Unlike the conventional wisdom of shooting at the featureless target, vision and perception acutally gets ALOT sharper in moments of stress. I use other's taped bullet holes as aiming points on targets if they are available. real human beings have arms- that would be a good reference point- shoot at the armit level, 3 or 4 inches in on either side.
people weare clothing- aim for a button, aim for a blotch of color on a design on a t-shirt or the inside edge of a shirt pocket. Picking your shots makes the difference between shooting your target and merely shooting at your target.
 
The use of featureless targets is done specifically to train you to "aim small" with no obvious reference point.

I believe in aiming COM...of whatever you can see, be that their head, arm, whatever

Training to only shoot people sized targets facing you straight on is not going to get it done.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top