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orionengnr
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If you want to invest in handloading equipment, then almost any cartridge is viable in the long term.
Factory ammo, available at a reasonable price? Depends entirely upon demand. I would not bet a lot on that particular cartridge as far as having enough demand to ensure a steady supply of reasonably priced factory ammo.
Again, consider handloading. I own and shoot (among others) 10mm, .41 Mag and .45 Long Colt. Any of those would cost me $35-45 for a box of 50 rounds, but I can (and do) manufacture each for about $6/box. As such, I have no incentive to sell any of those handguns, and every incentive to continue enjoying them.
Factory ammo, available at a reasonable price? Depends entirely upon demand. I would not bet a lot on that particular cartridge as far as having enough demand to ensure a steady supply of reasonably priced factory ammo.
Again, consider handloading. I own and shoot (among others) 10mm, .41 Mag and .45 Long Colt. Any of those would cost me $35-45 for a box of 50 rounds, but I can (and do) manufacture each for about $6/box. As such, I have no incentive to sell any of those handguns, and every incentive to continue enjoying them.
North Bender
Member
There are 13 pages of 9x18-related items on Gunbroker right now.
I love my PM and my CZ82.
Buddy of mine wants to sell his Bulgarian Mak.
May get it. Accurate, reliable, good trigger pull.
What's not to like?
More powerful than .380.
Larger boolit diameter than .380.
9x19 in a micro pistol is great, on paper.
Unfortunately, it loses quite a bit of velocity from a stubby barrel.
Buddy of mine wants to sell his Bulgarian Mak.
May get it. Accurate, reliable, good trigger pull.
What's not to like?
More powerful than .380.
Larger boolit diameter than .380.
9x19 in a micro pistol is great, on paper.
Unfortunately, it loses quite a bit of velocity from a stubby barrel.
I've Been Around Long Enough
...to have seen .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .38 Short and Long Colt, .38 S&W, .38 ACP, all of the WCF pistol/carbine rounds (some in "high speed"), .30 Luger, and .30 Mauser cartridges on the shelves. Plus .22 Win Auto RF. I may have forgotten some--maybe .32 and .41 Colt, for example, and some more obscure 7.65 and 9MM European rounds, perhaps. That's not to mention probably a dozen rifle rounds that are now gone.
To be frank, had someone told me in 1964 that some of those cartridges would be collector's items--that one day, one would not be able to afford to feed a S&W .38 Regulation Police, and that one would have to look far and wide for ammo for my S&W .32 Regulation Police--I probably would not have listened.
As long as one can find bullets and boxer primed brass one can handload, but I do not like handloading SD carry ammo. For plinking and practice, great. But unless the brass has a common head and rim, even that will come to an end.
At one time the .32 and .38 S&W loads were almost ubiquitous, but no more. I consider the 9X18 to be on the same road, just not as far down it yet.
...to have seen .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .38 Short and Long Colt, .38 S&W, .38 ACP, all of the WCF pistol/carbine rounds (some in "high speed"), .30 Luger, and .30 Mauser cartridges on the shelves. Plus .22 Win Auto RF. I may have forgotten some--maybe .32 and .41 Colt, for example, and some more obscure 7.65 and 9MM European rounds, perhaps. That's not to mention probably a dozen rifle rounds that are now gone.
To be frank, had someone told me in 1964 that some of those cartridges would be collector's items--that one day, one would not be able to afford to feed a S&W .38 Regulation Police, and that one would have to look far and wide for ammo for my S&W .32 Regulation Police--I probably would not have listened.
As long as one can find bullets and boxer primed brass one can handload, but I do not like handloading SD carry ammo. For plinking and practice, great. But unless the brass has a common head and rim, even that will come to an end.
At one time the .32 and .38 S&W loads were almost ubiquitous, but no more. I consider the 9X18 to be on the same road, just not as far down it yet.
Gun Master
Member
Future of 9x18
Well, let's enjoy the ride while we are going !
Some say they are prophets, maybe others nay sayers, but I say, "Enjoy" !
Facts are one thing. We can learn, but have fun while you are there !
Good Shooting !
Well, let's enjoy the ride while we are going !
Some say they are prophets, maybe others nay sayers, but I say, "Enjoy" !
Facts are one thing. We can learn, but have fun while you are there !
Good Shooting !
lincen
Member
Here we are discussing 9x18 and I know a few folks that are ready to sell their 22's because they cannot find ammo. The lesson here is to keep a decent supply of any and all calibers that you use or have sufficient reloading components. I'm no talking about hording but simple planning.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Why not just rebarrel the gun in .380?
Hard to justify buying a pistol that shoots .22 caliber when it's the weakest round produced when 1000 rounds of .22 will set you back the same price as 500 rounds of 9mm. The reason .22 was popular was because you could get 500 rounds for $20. If 500 rounds is going to cost $100 for it thru resellers, or if the ammo is unavailable at any price, then it makes sense to sell the .22 firearms and use the money to by ammo for something else with some power behind it.
LouisianaAviator
Member
For me it does. I sometimes carry a Bulgarian Makarov. Very slim and easy to carry. It's not the lightest pistol, but it's a compact package and the weight is not enough to make a difference to me. Being all steel, the recoil is very light, and it's a very accurate pistol. When I do carry it, I load it with Hornady XTP's.
So for me, yes it does. I just wish 9x18 was as cheap as it used to be. It's still a fraction the cost of .380
So for me, yes it does. I just wish 9x18 was as cheap as it used to be. It's still a fraction the cost of .380
JohnhenrySTL
Member
I hope so. I love my CZ-82.
lincen
Member
My comment about 22 firearms was serious and somewhat, for now at least, the opposite of the original question about the future of 9x18's.
On one hand you have an abundance of ammo for guns that are no longer made and on the other you have an abundance of new production handguns and long guns that you cannot get ammo for. In my area it does look like the panic buying and reselling of 22lr is slowing down. Still not much on the shelves but the resale price is dropping.
On one hand you have an abundance of ammo for guns that are no longer made and on the other you have an abundance of new production handguns and long guns that you cannot get ammo for. In my area it does look like the panic buying and reselling of 22lr is slowing down. Still not much on the shelves but the resale price is dropping.
9x18 ammo has been ridiculous at my local sources since I got started with the round a couple of years ago. I was able to buy it online quite easily at about $.31 delivered which I thought was reasonable so I snapped up a bunch of the Fiocchi. Same stuff the LGS's were selling at about 1/2 the price. I haven't looked in several months so the supply may be down or prices may be up.
As far as 22 ammo being unavailable or $100 per brick, I haven't paid more than $.05 per round delivered to my door since all this started. Sure it's not sitting on the Walmart shelves like it was 5 years ago but it is still readily available and still 1/2 the price of centerfire ammo if you have the time to peruse the internet and the cash to buy it when you find it. I get notifications almost every day with .22 for a nickle a round. If .22 becomes obsolete then the world will end.
As far as 22 ammo being unavailable or $100 per brick, I haven't paid more than $.05 per round delivered to my door since all this started. Sure it's not sitting on the Walmart shelves like it was 5 years ago but it is still readily available and still 1/2 the price of centerfire ammo if you have the time to peruse the internet and the cash to buy it when you find it. I get notifications almost every day with .22 for a nickle a round. If .22 becomes obsolete then the world will end.
Quiet
Member
Ammo will still be available for the 9x18mm cartridge.
But, do not expect any new handguns chambered for it.
Even the Russian Military has dropped it and adopted the 9x19mm cartridge as their new standard issue pistol caliber.
But, do not expect any new handguns chambered for it.
Even the Russian Military has dropped it and adopted the 9x19mm cartridge as their new standard issue pistol caliber.
JHansenAK47
Member
The 9x18 may not have a bright future on American soil but in the commercial market of former combloc countries it will have a future, especially with the propensity to ban military calibers ie 9x19.
Averageman
Member
I bought a P64 during the height of the most recent ammo shortage drama.
I had no problem getting ammo and even Federal is making quality 9x18 ammo that is very available here.
I think it is a very overlooked caliber and a shade better than .380.
I have enough of it laying around to last the rest of my life for both carry and practise.
I had no problem getting ammo and even Federal is making quality 9x18 ammo that is very available here.
I think it is a very overlooked caliber and a shade better than .380.
I have enough of it laying around to last the rest of my life for both carry and practise.
Gun Master
Member
Some people are still acting like their .22 pistols have some inherent value over 9x18, or 9x19 or .357 and ask the same price that a 9mm or .380 can bring. $300 or $350 or even higher...for pistols that shoot a cartridge that is considerably weaker, less reliable, jams more frequently etc. When this is over, .22 ammo is likely to be double or perhaps triple in price at retail from what it use to be. $60 for 500 rounds honestly wouldn't seem a crazy price to pay in any other cartridge except .22. So the days of cheap .22 may be gone forever. My question becomes...why is there a belief that the value of a .22 pistols won't fall, and isn't falling, and that people might choose to divest themselves of owning one, when the rimfire is less powerful, less reliable on ignition than centerfire, and, at the moment, the price to purchase ammunition is approaching similarity to buying an equal number of centerfire rounds in larger, more reliable, caliber choices? If .22 ammunition continues to remain hard to get, or becomes available but at higher prices, then pistols in that caliber will become *far* less desirable for people to own. 22 Rifles will always have a place as a varmit and small game hunters. But the pistols...If I owned one I'd be considering getting rid of it right now for sure, while the price of a used one is high and I can expect someone out there to pay a pretty penny for it. Very soon the market on .22 pistols may plunge..and all it will take is for .22 ammo to be resupplied at Walmart in large quantities..but at prices that are 3x what they use to be. ($65-80 per 500 brick, let's say) In another year or so, manufacturers may shift their production to centerfire and away from .22 in any event. (If they haven't already.) How much metal goes into a box of 500 .22? I'll do a quick calculation..and use one of the heavier calibers (.45 ACP) as a counterpoint to show what I mean. 40 grains of .22 x500 rounds is 20,000 grains in weight of metal. Lead in this case. 500 times 230 grains of .45 ACP is 115,000 grains. But .45 sells in 50 round boxes, not 500. So 11,500 grains of .45 ammo sells at..what? $30 a box? $35? You could almost double the .45 to 2 boxes of 50, at 23,000 grains, and almost equal the 20,000 grain weight of a single brick of 500 .22. So for the same amount of lead and brass purchased by an ammo company, they could make a 50 round box of .45 that would net them the $15 difference between a $20 brick of 500 22 and the $35 box of .45. And they could almost make two boxes of .45 for the same weight of brass and lead that they as a company have to purchase for a $30 difference...for the same amount of lead and brass. So there's 2 boxes of 45 selling at $70, which is nearly the same weight as a 500 round box of .22 that everyone and their brother expects to get for $20 or less like it use to be. If you go to lighter calibers like .380 or 9mm, even .38 and 357...how many boxes of those can you produce for the same amount of metal you'd find in a box of 500 .22s? Would you rather sell 3 boxes of .380 or 1 box of .22? The reason why there may not be any .22 on the shelves right now could be because companies have already made this calculation and come to realize that their profit is best served in selling smaller amounts of 50 round boxes of centerfire than in bulk .22 ammo. If they haven't already made this calculation..then they soon will. So .22 may be a cartridge that doesn't receive a lot of interest for manufacturers to produce from now on..because it is less profitable....until the price becomes equal in profit to what producing a couple of centerfire boxes of equal weight and material input will equal. The availability of .22, in my opinion, may remain low for these reasons, and as a way to keep the price high. The days of the cheap .22 are gone, in my opinion.
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Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
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in the commercial market of former combloc countries it will have a future, especially with the propensity to ban military calibers ie 9x19
Interesting proposition....
Can you offer one example of a former Warsaw Pact nation that has banned 9x19?
Willie
.
Interesting proposition....
Can you offer one example of a former Warsaw Pact nation that has banned 9x19?
Willie
.
BSA1
member
Dear Killian,
Baloney!
Regards,
BSA1
Baloney!
Regards,
BSA1
^^^Agreed. Baloney!
.22 Ammo is not "going away" or likely to remain at these inflated prices. I don't know anything about ammo manufacturing but if you think manufacturers have been losing money on .22 for the past 50 years then you don't know much about business. I assure you that the ammo companies know EXACTLY what it costs them to manufacture a round on .22, .45 and every other ammo they make. The fact that newly produced .22 ammo is being sold at prices just slightly above what it was 2 years ago pretty much disproves the theory. Will it go back to where it was in 2005 or 2011? I doubt it but will it be $60 a brick at Walmart for Golden Bullets? I think not.
The lowly .22 is a good weapon to train with and the caliber that most gun people got started with. At 25-30 yards it will punch a hole in paper just as good as a .45 or 9mm and make a steel target go "ding". For many, many young and recoil/noise sensitive people it is still the preferred round.
I have seen several people complaining about ammo price and availability and claiming they are going to sell off their .22 guns but I haven't seen that happening. .22 pistols and rifles are still flying off the shelves at prices approaching, and often exceeding, CF calibers. Ammo is still being produced 24/7 by all the ammo companies and they have all indicated that they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I can pick up a NIB Hi Point 9mm for less than $200 at most places around town and I will have a reliable, albeit butt ugly and heavy, pistol. I don't know of a reliable .22 LR pistol that is less than $200 NIB.
9x18? I haven't seen a "new" design for that caliber in years nor have I seen any major advances in bullet design. I imagine it could be considered "obsolete" and "old" but it is still a viable round because of the millions of surplus pistols available in the caliber. I have several and enjoy shooting them. It is rare for a trip to the range to NOT include one of my "Makarovs", even if it is not a true Makarov. With the bullets and brass I have on hand now I can shoot 9x18 until my shooting days are over.
.22 Ammo is not "going away" or likely to remain at these inflated prices. I don't know anything about ammo manufacturing but if you think manufacturers have been losing money on .22 for the past 50 years then you don't know much about business. I assure you that the ammo companies know EXACTLY what it costs them to manufacture a round on .22, .45 and every other ammo they make. The fact that newly produced .22 ammo is being sold at prices just slightly above what it was 2 years ago pretty much disproves the theory. Will it go back to where it was in 2005 or 2011? I doubt it but will it be $60 a brick at Walmart for Golden Bullets? I think not.
The lowly .22 is a good weapon to train with and the caliber that most gun people got started with. At 25-30 yards it will punch a hole in paper just as good as a .45 or 9mm and make a steel target go "ding". For many, many young and recoil/noise sensitive people it is still the preferred round.
I have seen several people complaining about ammo price and availability and claiming they are going to sell off their .22 guns but I haven't seen that happening. .22 pistols and rifles are still flying off the shelves at prices approaching, and often exceeding, CF calibers. Ammo is still being produced 24/7 by all the ammo companies and they have all indicated that they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I can pick up a NIB Hi Point 9mm for less than $200 at most places around town and I will have a reliable, albeit butt ugly and heavy, pistol. I don't know of a reliable .22 LR pistol that is less than $200 NIB.
9x18? I haven't seen a "new" design for that caliber in years nor have I seen any major advances in bullet design. I imagine it could be considered "obsolete" and "old" but it is still a viable round because of the millions of surplus pistols available in the caliber. I have several and enjoy shooting them. It is rare for a trip to the range to NOT include one of my "Makarovs", even if it is not a true Makarov. With the bullets and brass I have on hand now I can shoot 9x18 until my shooting days are over.
Gun Master
Member
Agreed, with one exception..........and two possibilities : 1. It can be spelled "bologna", and 2. It can be spelled "balonie". Both are essentially the same.
The .22 and 9x18mm will be around a long time.
Just wait and see !
The .22 and 9x18mm will be around a long time.
Just wait and see !
North Bender
Member
Killian,
If you had provided some punctuation I may have been able to grasp the meaning of your post. I realize it was a heart felt message - was it about 9x18 or only about 22?
You don't follow 9x18 much do you? Look up what Buffalo Bore has provided. And Underwood. If you don't follow the caliber there is no need to post.
If you had provided some punctuation I may have been able to grasp the meaning of your post. I realize it was a heart felt message - was it about 9x18 or only about 22?
You don't follow 9x18 much do you? Look up what Buffalo Bore has provided. And Underwood. If you don't follow the caliber there is no need to post.
When you become a moderator then I will follow your advice. Until then....
I have some Buffalo Bore in 9x18. I also have some Hornady Critical Defense. Buffalo actually advertises that theirs is "not affected by heavy clothing". Neither of them is a huge improvement over anything that has been around for 50 years. I keep my P-64 loaded with FMJ.
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