Does changing the barrel on a bolt action also change the chamber?

[Aim1]

I goggled this and couldn't find it but if you change the barrel on a Ruger American Ranch Rifle will it also change the chamber?

I had one of these and sent it in because it wouldn't chamber most rounds reliably. The original rifle had 2 gouges in it from a vise. The rifle was sent into Ruger and returned to me and it appears to have a new barrel with no gouges in the barrel. I'm wondering if they replaced the barrel o fix the chambering issue and it just happened to also fix the problem of the gouged barrel. Checked the serial number and it's the same as the original.


How does this work?

 

[boom boom]

Not really sure what you are getting at here. The chamber is in the barrel only so a new barrel=new chamber. I think what you are trying to say is whether headspace was affected. On a rimless case, it is measured from the bolt face to a specified datum point on the shoulder of the chamber (assuming a bottleneck case). A new barrel and chamber can change the headspace of a rifle but not always enough to matter. Ruger has no problem matching the serial number of the barrel and receiver (if you have one on both) or did you mean the receiver on the rifle had gouges and might have been replaced? Ruger can replace a serial numbered receiver as the original manufacturer with the same number by jumping through a few hoops. The barrel is not a controlled item for the ATF on a bolt action so not a big issue to change.

 

[Aim1]

Not really sure what you are getting at here. The chamber is in the barrel only so a new barrel=new chamber. I think what you are trying to say is whether headspace was affected. On a rimless case, it is measured from the bolt face to a specified datum point on the shoulder of the chamber (assuming a bottleneck case). A new barrel and chamber can change the headspace of a rifle but not always enough to matter. Ruger has no problem matching the serial number of the barrel and receiver (if you have one on both) or did you mean the receiver on the rifle had gouges and might have been replaced? Ruger can replace a serial numbered receiver as the original manufacturer with the same number by jumping through a few hoops. The barrel is not a controlled item for the ATF on a bolt action so not a big issue to change.

Sorry to be confusing. I don’t know how this stuff works.

I thought a barrel and chamber were completely separate.


So, you could change barrels and not effect the chamber at all.


Or if the barrel and chamber were the same that they changed barrels to fix the chamber issue and in doing so I got a new barrel that wasn’t gouged vs. them fixing the chamber issue and then throwing on a new barrel to fix the gouge even though it wasn’t a manufacturing issue.

 

[Tommygunn]

You might be changing the headspace.
Are you changing calibers? What part of the cartridge does it headspace on?

If you are replacing it with the exact same caliber and brand barrel, it should be the same, if properly assembled. This might be if the old barrel was severely worn to the point of being unrehabilitatable.


More information would really be helpful.

 

[jmorris]

I thought a barrel and chamber were completely separate.


So, you could change barrels and not effect the chamber at all.

On a revolver that would be true.

On a bolt action you thread the barrel to fit the receiver and ream the chamber in the rifled blank.

 

[boom boom]

Sorry to be confusing. I don’t know how this stuff works.

I thought a barrel and chamber were completely separate.


So, you could change barrels and not effect the chamber at all.


Or if the barrel and chamber were the same that they changed barrels to fix the chamber issue and in doing so I got a new barrel that wasn’t gouged vs. them fixing the chamber issue and then throwing on a new barrel to fix the gouge even though it wasn’t a manufacturing issue.

No, the receiver and the barrel are separate parts and a firing chamber is usually reamed out of a rifled blank barrel of a certain diameter. The process (not dealing with hammer forged issues here) is that a round bar of specified steel is drilled out, rifled to something like 6.5 mm and then the chamber is reamed at the breech which is externally threaded to the receiver (the end where the cartridge goes to be fired) for a specified 6.5 mm cartridge such as the 6.5 Creedmoor. The receiver in most bolt action rifles is simply to hold the bolt face and barrel in a specified relationship (aka headspace), provide a magazine for feeding the chamber, housing the trigger and sear mechanism, and providing locking recesses for the bolt lugs upon firing to keep the bolt from coming out and poking the shooter in the eye. The receiver is the heart of the bolt action firearm while the barrel is a somewhat expendable/replaceable part.

Ruger took the easier manufacturing path in the American series which was originally popularized by Savage in using a barrel nut to attach the barrel and adjust the headspace for the rifle. This design makes it very easy to replace and headspace barrels to fit the receiver and bolt. What I am guessing that Ruger did from your description is to put a new barrel, and maybe a new barrel nut on the rifle and it should be properly headspaced to the original rifle's cartridge. A new barrel for your rifle will have a new chamber as the chamber is within the barrel itself as explained above.

Here is an old THR thread about changing the barrel in a Ruger American
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ruger-american-barrel-nut-quick-change-barrel.814579/

Major difficulty is that it was (haven't looked recently) difficult to find aftermarket barrels unlike the Savage barrel nut receivers which have been around for decades. Receiver lengths do differ as does feeding from the magazine so usually the easiest switches are within cartridge families--.30-06 family long action receivers, the .308 and its progeny, and so on.

 

[Deanimator]

In almost every case, the chamber of a rifle is merely the rear end of the barrel, bored out to match the shape of a loaded cartridge, and into which the cartridge is loaded.

Exceptions such as revolving rifles and especially the H&K G11 and other caseless ammunition rifles are so vanishingly rare as to mostly be irrelevant.

 

[Aim1]

Update:

Found out there was a piece of paper with it. Itsaid:

Replaced: barrel

Refinished: barrel action (not sure what that means)



I'm wondering if they could have just refinished the chamber to fix the chambering issue? Perhaps they just changed out the barrel to be nice because the original had a gouge in it. Or maybe they needed to refinish the chamber and replace the barrel to make it chamber rounds.

Either way it appears to chamber rounds very well now. It used to have a problem chambering basically every round. I just checked it and it seems to cycle all the ammo I have for it, 220gr. Remington and Sig subsonics, and 194gr. Leheigh subs. It was really having issues with the .194gr. Leheigh rounds originally and sometimes the 220gr. It was really frustrating to have a new gun not chamber many rounds.

Note also said that this rifle works well with all ammo except Remington and Barnes.

When I sent it in it had a broken magazine, the 2nd broken magazine actually which was a replacement for the original magazine which broke. They also threw in 2 new magazines which was really nice of them. They paid shipping both ways too.

Definitely a fan of Ruger CS now.

 

[Pat Riot]

If Ruger changed the barrel, yes, they also changed the chamber as it is part of the rear of the barrel. Here are a couple diagrams I found.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--gTl4-dVJEI/UXjcGQt3q8I/AAAAAAAABok/cOy6uNRjb0c/s1600/barrel-parts.jpg

https://aegisacademy.com/schedule/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Barrel-Contours2.jpg

 

[Deus Machina]

For rigidity of machining, they almost certainly had to remove the barrel to rechamber it--see jmorris' picture.
So it was probably just easier to take a look at the chamber end of a new finished barrel and swap that out.
So, yes, by changing the barrel they rechambered the rifle by default.

 

[reddog81]

On your rifle the barrel and the chamber are made from the same piece of metal.

You can change out the barrel and the new chamber could be identical to the previous one or could be a completely different caliber or could just slightly alter the dimensions of the original.

You can also take the existing barrel and ream it out to a new caliber or just cleaned up with a finish reamer if so inclined.

Ruger probably could have cleaned up the old chamber but it must have been easier for them to just take off the old barrel and install a new one.

 

[jmorris]

Said that they replaced the barrel and refinished the chamber.

I'm wondering if they could have just refinished the chamber to fix the chambering issue?

You can remove a barrel, re-ream the chamber, face it off and replace it in the receiver. There wouldn’t be any need to “refinish the chamber” of a new barrel. Who knows what they actually did, whom ever typed up the note you read, likely didn’t do the work.

Is it all better now?

 

[Obturation]

Who knows what they actually did, whom ever typed up the note you read, likely didn’t do the work.

Had ruger do warranty work on a revolver last summer, they were specific about the repair. Coincidentally also a bad barrel.

 

[CapnMac]

Perhaps they just changed out the barrel to be nice because the original had a gouge in it.

Probably hit the nail right there. QC took the return and put on their checklist to eliminate the blemished barrel. QC very liely also mandated using a chamber reamer as part of the repair process, just to be sure (or, perhaps, that's SOP at Ruger).

 

[mrmeval]

This shows how to chamber a new barrel. There are other videos that show how to install them. The barrel appears to have all of the other machine work done, threads cut, etc. There are other videos that show screwing on the barrel and verifying it is correctly done.

 

[Varminterror]

I'm wondering if they could have just refinished the chamber to fix the chambering issue?

Not likely, and not for the cost to them to do it. It’s simply cheaper to install a new barrel than try to re-ream the chamber.

Ruger would NOT “set back” a barrel (described above as removing, facing the barrel tenon, and recutting a new chamber). That’s not their MO for warranty work. Bad chamber? New barrel. Bad throat? New barrel. Bad crown? New barrel. Their system is designed to minimize skilled labor work - low level machinists install their barrels, not experienced gunsmiths. Largely, they know to push a button and operate the equipment - that’s how we get Ruger products at such low costs.

In a bolt rifle, as with almost ALL rifles, pistols, and shotguns, the chamber is cut into the barrel, which is then inserted into the receiver. The bolt face sets the dimension for the back of the chamber, but the chamber itself is cut into the barrel. Changing barrels changes the chamber.

“Refinishing” the action just means they redid the outer coating - effectively they gave it a new coat of paint. Refinishing the chamber would have done absolutely nothing to correct a headspace issue.

 

[MachIVshooter]

This shows how to chamber a new barrel. There are other videos that show how to install them. The barrel appears to have all of the other machine work done, threads cut, etc. There are other videos that show screwing on the barrel and verifying it is correctly done.

You can buy certain barrels pre-threaded & short chambered, but those of us who do this professionally almost always start with a profiled blank that we cut to length, face, thread & chamber. Once in awhile we get an "in the white" blank, which is just thick, straight tube that we have to profile, but with the plethora of profiles available from barrel makers, that's pretty uncommon.

Using a steady rest and a dog on the tailstock also isn't the best way.

I run barrels through my headstock and indicate the bore radially & axially, turn, thread & undercut, face the rear, then chamber using a floating reamer holder on my turret. I also do not have the lathe turning when inserting or removing the reamer, good way to gouge and introduce chatter. And you can't properly set headspace without the action.

 

[boom boom]

Update:

Found out there was a piece of paper with it. Itsaid:

Replaced: barrel

Refinished: barrel action (not sure what that means)



I'm wondering if they could have just refinished the chamber to fix the chambering issue? Perhaps they just changed out the barrel to be nice because the original had a gouge in it. Or maybe they needed to refinish the chamber and replace the barrel to make it chamber rounds.

Either way it appears to chamber rounds very well now. It used to have a problem chambering basically every round. I just checked it and it seems to cycle all the ammo I have for it, 220gr. Remington and Sig subsonics, and 194gr. Leheigh subs. It was really having issues with the .194gr. Leheigh rounds originally and sometimes the 220gr. It was really frustrating to have a new gun not chamber many rounds.

Note also said that this rifle works well with all ammo except Remington and Barnes.

When I sent it in it had a broken magazine, the 2nd broken magazine actually which was a replacement for the original magazine which broke. They also threw in 2 new magazines which was really nice of them. They paid shipping both ways too.

Definitely a fan of Ruger CS now.

Glad everything is working out for you.

Unfortunately, labor cost more than parts in many cases so it was a very simple and cheaper fix for them to simply put a new barrel on it rather than fix the old parts. Say maybe 5-10 minutes for a new barrel and headspacing (as they are set up for it) versus getting the grinder out to remove gouges, evening and refinishing the surfaces after, re-reaming the barrel, etc. which would require more individual worker time. I suspect things like reaming the barrels, barrel finishing, etc. are mostly automated by now at Ruger so interrupting a production line to do a one off is generally a no-no. Ruger has a barrel making facility inhouse using hammer forging so barrels are relatively cheap for them. Cold hammer forging is a technique where a mandrel is inserted into the previously drilled bore and massive hammers beat the steel into shape around the mandrel which provides the rifling and chamber for the barrel. Had a senior moment and forgot that Ruger used this process instead of the older cut, button, etc. method of barrel making which I talked about above. Cold Hammer Forging machines are used for cost reasons by mass manufacturers as it is faster and requires less labor to produce a barrel.

Found a video of Ruger's hammer forging barrel operation if you want to know how they make barrels.
https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/gunsmithing/video-a-look-at-rugers-cold-hammer-forge

Another look at Ruger's operation on barrels


Douglas Barrels (high end)

Note the older equipment and you see the workers doing a bit more as labor costs are higher for making these premium barrels than the CHF barrels.

One of the reasons that mass produced barrels vary quite a bit is it depends on how long and hard the company decides to use its machine tooling (mandrels, rifling buttons, etc. for example are wear items designed to be replaced at certain intervals like brakes for your car). A worn mandrel could have produced the original out of spec chamber for your replaced barrel as does using an dull undersized reamer.

So one customer, whose barrel was produced by fresh tooling, has a great experience in accuracy and so forth while some buying a barrel 6 months later that was made with worn tooling can have issues. What you are paying for in premium barrels is that any defects are caught by the humans involved and tooling is kept up to spec. Non-premium barrels have more variance.

 

[WestKentucky]

Replaced the barrel means just that. They replaced the barrel which includes the chamber. To do this it takes some special tools and a lot of force. Often the bluing, parkerizing, or polished surfaces of a receiver or barrel are nicked, dinged, or otherwise marred during the process. It may be a slight tool mark left on the parts, or sometimes a large tool mark. Refinishing repairs or covers over those marks. Even if a new barrel is installed and no tool marks are left on the gun, a slightly different but noticeable difference in color or texture of the parts will be there so they will remove the old finish and refinish the barreled action (barrel and action after assembled) to make everything match and be visually correct.

 

[Aim1]

Glad everything is working out for you.

Unfortunately, labor cost more than parts in many cases so it was a very simple and cheaper fix for them to simply put a new barrel on it rather than fix the old parts. Say maybe 5-10 minutes for a new barrel and headspacing (as they are set up for it) versus getting the grinder out to remove gouges, evening and refinishing the surfaces after, re-reaming the barrel, etc. which would require more individual worker time. I suspect things like reaming the barrels, barrel finishing, etc. are mostly automated by now at Ruger so interrupting a production line to do a one off is generally a no-no. Ruger has a barrel making facility inhouse using hammer forging so barrels are relatively cheap for them. Cold hammer forging is a technique where a mandrel is inserted into the previously drilled bore and massive hammers beat the steel into shape around the mandrel which provides the rifling and chamber for the barrel. Had a senior moment and forgot that Ruger used this process instead of the older cut, button, etc. method of barrel making which I talked about above. Cold Hammer Forging machines are used for cost reasons by mass manufacturers as it is faster and requires less labor to produce a barrel.

Found a video of Ruger's hammer forging barrel operation if you want to know how they make barrels.
https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/gunsmithing/video-a-look-at-rugers-cold-hammer-forge

Another look at Ruger's operation on barrels


Douglas Barrels (high end)

Note the older equipment and you see the workers doing a bit more as labor costs are higher for making these premium barrels than the CHF barrels.

One of the reasons that mass produced barrels vary quite a bit is it depends on how long and hard the company decides to use its machine tooling (mandrels, rifling buttons, etc. for example are wear items designed to be replaced at certain intervals like brakes for your car). A worn mandrel could have produced the original out of spec chamber for your replaced barrel as does using an dull undersized reamer.

So one customer, whose barrel was produced by fresh tooling, has a great experience in accuracy and so forth while some buying a barrel 6 months later that was made with worn tooling can have issues. What you are paying for in premium barrels is that any defects are caught by the humans involved and tooling is kept up to spec. Non-premium barrels have more variance.

Interesting.

The wear and tear on the machines affecting the finished product make sense.


Ruger has a known problem with the Ruger American Ranch Rifle in .300 Blackout having chambering issues.

 

[boom boom]

Interesting.

The wear and tear on the machines affecting the finished product make sense.


Ruger has a known problem with the Ruger American Ranch Rifle in .300 Blackout having chambering issues.

Tool and die guys in manufacturing do not get the respect due to them but they are the front line in producing stuff. These guys really deal with precision as any defect in the tooling will be repeated until caught--potentially costing a company millions of dollars. If a lot of people are having problems with the .300 Blackout chambers, it is possible that an out of spec mandrel or some other flaw in the CHF system repeated it with a number of barrels.

The numbers guys in the front office often ignore them when these guys warn that tooling and dies need to be replaced or out of spec parts will be produced. Often the numbers guys figure that the number of returns based on out of spec parts is less than the cost of "retooling" the production line so they delay a bit more to make their financial and production numbers that quarter. The customer bears the burden of that type of decisionmaking.

I have some WWII era firearms and you can tell on the finish that they were using worn tooling due to the tremendous need for firearms NOW. Rough chambers, machining marks on barrels, etc. indicate that tooling was worn beyond spec. Ideally, the worn tooling was only used on finish such as a rough exterior of a barrel rather than a functional area such as a chamber.

Ruger itself shut down production of the Mini 14 during the early 2000's as the original tooling to make it was worn out and producing out of spec parts. I suspect that part of the reason for ending the Six series of Ruger revolvers was in part due to worn tooling--in some sense if you are planning on doing a major redesign such as the GP 100, it does not make sense to re-tool the Six line due to the expense for a discontinued product.

Colt generations of SAA's revolvers between the 2nd and 3rd types was based in part on production tooling for the Second Generation wearing out and needing to be replaced. Colt simply shut down production of the SAA until demand was enough to pay for new tooling for the Third Generation.

 

[Jim Watson]

I once saw an estimate for a factory barrel at $40 internal cost. You cannot pay someone to do much troubleshooting and tinkering for $40.

I sent in a Remington 788 for a new barrel, charge to me to be $135.
They just sent back an all new barreled action; the old one was not worth the time to even change the barrel. This was years after the model had been discontinued but they still had them on the shelf.

A recent thread on another board showed a marred spot on a rather expensive 1911. The owner complained to the point that they replaced the whole gun rather than just refinish a spot about a quarter inch wide.

Guns are cheaper than you think.

 

[illinoisburt]

I once saw an estimate for a factory barrel at $40 internal cost. You cannot pay someone to do much troubleshooting and tinkering for $40.

I sent in a Remington 788 for a new barrel, charge to me to be $135.
They just sent back an all new barreled action; the old one was not worth the time to even change the barrel. This was years after the model had been discontinued but they still had them on the shelf.

A recent thread on another board showed a marred spot on a rather expensive 1911. The owner complained to the point that they replaced the whole gun rather than just refinish a spot about a quarter inch wide.

Guns are cheaper than you think.

This. Exactly. Besides, if the chamber was flawed there is every possibility there could be other issues which won't appear until after a fix is attempted. Why spend the labor and machine time to fix an out of spec barrel which likely would have been scrapped/recycled in the first place? Especially so if the correct replacement part is inexpensive and readily available in house.

 

[LoonWulf]

Interesting.

The wear and tear on the machines affecting the finished product make sense.


Ruger has a known problem with the Ruger American Ranch Rifle in .300 Blackout having chambering issues.

Chambering or getting stuck in the magazine?
Rugers rotary mags can be finiky about the oal of .300 blackout ammo, I've never heard of an issue once the rounds actually leave the magazine.

My RAR did fine untill oal got pretty short, then it would choke.

 

[Aim1]

Chambering or getting stuck in the magazine?
Rugers rotary mags can be finiky about the oal of .300 blackout ammo, I've never heard of an issue once the rounds actually leave the magazine.

My RAR did fine untill oal got pretty short, then it would choke.

Apparently chambering. Guys have attempted to fix the problem by modifying the magazines. Some have had some success with that some have also polished the chambers and other things to attempt to get them to work.