Does Double Tap and Buffalo Bore really live up to its hype

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Has anyone chronographed these two brands to see if they really get the velocities they claim?

An example is this. Take the .38 +P loads. Buffalo Bore says they have a 125gr moving 1050 fps whereas Double Tap says their 125 gr is 1175 fps. That is a huge difference in performance, especially when you consider a major manufacturer like Remington is only pushing their Golden Saber 975 fps. All claims are coming from a 4" barrel. Cor-Bon says their 125 is moving 950 fps (or 1125 on their table, not sure why the discrepancy.)

A 200 fps difference in a defense round is huge and accounts for an almost 50% increase in muzzle energy for the Double Tap over the Remington.

I guess the real question is, if a company could really squeeze that much more power out of a round, why wouldn't they? Especially companies as power-obsessed as Remington (.300 Ultra Mag, .357 Remington Magnum, .44 Remington Magnum), or Cor-Bon (.500 Magnum, .440 Cor-Bon).

If the big companies can't do it, how did these small companies do it? Or back to the original question DID THEY DO IT?

 

[Deersniper]

I bought a box of DoubleTap in .40 for my GLOCK and recoil was noticeably more. After that box, I asked myself the same question and quit shooting it because I figured the extra 200 fps was not worth blowing up my gun for. It probably wouldn't blow up but I was worried about it. I'll stick to the tried and true. (Corbon, TAP, Hyrda-shok, etc.)

 

[Soybomb]

Remember too that a lot of people don't really think muzzle energy is an important part of stopping an attacker but instead you should focus on the wound the handgun round creates. In some instances that extra velocity doesn't seem to matter. I am not impressed with the performance of doubletap's 9mm rounds for example, their 10mm rounds do offer increased wounding potential over most commercial loads. You can find people have shot these rounds over a chrono too if you dig around, I believe they're pretty well on the velocity taking into account barrel length, elevation, etc.

As far as how they do it, I think part of it is you're looking at smaller "boutique" shops that can afford to play around with mixing powder more and may not need to economize/standardize powder like a bigger manufacturer needs to. I think they're probably also willing to push things more.

 

[biscuitninja]

Malice,
its not necessarily squeezing more powerder in there, its usually putting faster burning charge as well as maybe a little bit more. But you have to realize most pistols are not meant to take the fast burning charge and if you push it out of its designed tolerance (recoil spring, breech, extractor, etc.) you start to get FTE and other issues.

Also when you use BIG power small packages you start to NEED material changes. Stuff like regular steels give way to high strength stainless steels, you also start to need stuff like titanium (which is WAY more expensive than regular steels/stainless). On top of that you need better manufacturing techniques as well as quality control to produce essentially the same product. Now you tell me, would you pay an extra 1000 to have a Glock with a titanium body and a high strength stainless slide and agumented barrel? Probably not.... (but I probably would, because i'm retarded that way... ha ha)
Anyways good luck
-bix

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Pressure wasn't really even a major concern for me. If I use my Model 10 K frame I'd feel comfortable even with a large bump in pressure, since the K frames have shown the ability to handle .357 loads.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't these two companies have to stay within SAAMI specs or at least anounce when they're not, like is common with .45/70 and .45 Colt?

If they ARE within their pressure limitations, I'd like to know if they are getting all that extra speed they claim to be.

 

[DFW1911]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't these two companies have to stay within SAMMI specs or at least anounce when they're not, like is common with .45/70 and .45 Colt?

This is a good question. I know on Garrett's website they indicate a certain round is to only be used in certain pistols. I guess the implication is that these pistols are "strong enough" to handle the load.

To Malice's point, though, where / how does SAAMI fit in here?

Thanks,
DFW1911

 

[hossdaniels]

To answer the original question, buffalo bore is up to their claimed velocities, and very consistent, I've had absolutely no problems in my 629, but I only shoot about 50 rounds of buffalo bore a year to get ready for hunting. As far as pressure, they say they are within sammi specs, I have no way to check that however. I have not seen any signs of stress. The rest of the time I just shoot cheap walmart ammo. The hot stuff will not hurt anything if used as its intended. I wouldn't use it for plinking, not that I could afford to.

 

[rcmodel]

If I use my Model 10 K frame I'd feel comfortable even with a large bump in pressure, since the K frames have shown the ability to handle .357 loads.

Careful there.
Until fairly recently, not all K-frames were created equal.
The older model 10's did not use the same metallurgy or heat treating as the K-Frame Magnums.

Plus, the shorter .38 Spl cylinder and longer barrel extension outside the frame made them much weaker in that area.

They were not quite as strong, or durable with high-pressure ammo as the Magnums.
And even they had problems.


rcmodel

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I have a 10-6, so it's a "later" model (I'm guessing sometime in the '60s as opposed to the ones made in the '20s. Anyone familiar with their strength?

 

[the naked prophet]

I'll bet it has to do with the pressure curve. Especially in the .38 special.

If you compare modern loads to the old loads, even the +P loads aren't up to what the old .38 special standard pressure loads were.

I believe modern ammo like the Remington may use a powder with a quick initial spike in pressure that falls off quickly, whereas the DoubleTap stuff may have a pressure spike at the beginning, but keep the pressure up that high for longer. I know most manufacturers are capable of using blended powder (a big no-no for reloaders), but I don't know if Remington does. Keep in mind that DoubleTap probably does more experimentation than does Remington.

 

[sqlbullet]

A quick cross reference of some of the 10mm loads at Double Taps site against a reloading manual I have at work (yes, I am that strange that I keep a reloading manual at work) indicates that they are probably within SAAMI spec, but right at the edge.

Modern Reloading 2nd Edition lists a 135 Grain Jacketed bullet at max load when on top of 11.5 grains of Accurate #5. This produces 1503fps at the muzzle and 36,900 PSI. The 10mm max is 37,500 psi. That leaves a little room, plus, maximizing the curve behind a specific burn rate makes the 1600fps 135 grain believable without exceeding SAAMI spec.

These manufactures are not using any special 'tricks' per se to get these speeds. They are merely willing to incur liability that other mfg's are not.

 

[Jeff F]

Never shot any of the Double Tap fodder, but I get a real bang with the BB 180 grain GC hard cast .357 magnum load.

 

[brigadier]

I am not sure about Buffalo Boar but I have read many ammo reviews from different crowds about Double Tap ammo and the private chronograph tests always seam to put Double Tap loads in the same velocity arena as Double Taps ratings, sometimes up to 50FPS above or below the listed velocity but usually within 25 fps of the listed velocity, this from guns of similar barrel lengths that Double Tap uses to test their ammo.
I shoot Double Tap 135gr JHPs out of my 10mm Beretta 96. The noise it makes is similar to that made by Blazer 240gr JHP ammo out of my .44 Magnum Desert Eagle.
Here you can see Double Tap's 10mm 135gr JHP compared to Remington's 180gr MC load for recoil and sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8NoanE9q-o

 

[rdrancher]

Brassfetcher's testing shows all three of Buffalo Bore's Standard Pressure .38 specials exceeding BB's claimed velocities. Since BB does testing using the owners personal guns, and lists velocities for different barrel lengths, I would assume that the other calibers would offer up similar results.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#standard38

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Special.html

rd

 

[Jim March]

The Doubletap ammo I tried was in 357, full-house 125gr loads rated at 1,600fps+.

I had a chance to shoot some at informal targets with my Ruger New Vaquero with a 4.68" barrel. The guy I was shooting with had some old bowling balls as targets.

With one shot I was able to split one in two and send fist-size pieces of it's concrete innards over 20 feet.

The owner of this odd target claimed to have shot many of them before, but had never seen that effect with a handgun in any caliber. To say he was impressed was an understatement. I have not run any through a chrony, but clearly I'm getting damned good performance out of these critters in this moderate-length barrel. (While not all that long, Ruger barrels are often noted as "shooting fast" for their length...faster than classic S&Ws, although newer S&Ws seem to be keeping pace with the Rugers.)

The slug DT uses in these is the Gold Dot "high speed" variant.

I believe this load in this caliber would be a hell of a defense round. Is it all THAT much better than anything else? I don't know. But it's damned good stuff and I have no regrets owning and carrying some. I carry with two rounds of good 38+P lined up "first at bat" followed by four of those DT 125s lined up, on the theory (hope?) that any bystanders will have hit the deck and covered their ears by then and it's time to go all-in.

 

[Gun Slinger]

I had occasion to test some Buffalo Bore 9mm ammunition over a year ago. The stats were:

Test Date: 12August2006

Buffalo Bore 115 gr. Unicor JHP +P+ (24A)

HI: 1437 fps
LO: 1369 fps
AV: 1402 fps
ES: 67 fps
SD: 18.23 fps
n: 10 rnds
Comments: Advertised velocity is 1400 fps. Sharp/intense muzzle blast, very slight muzzle flash in bright daylight. Very hot load! Very 'snappy' recoil impulse, too.

Buffalo Bore 147 gr. Unicor JHP +P+ (24C)

HI: 1182 fps
LO: 1131 fps
AV: 1167 fps
ES: 51 fps
SD: 14.11 fps
n: 10 rnds
Comments: Advertised velocity is 1175 fps. Concussive muzzle blast, slight muzzle flash in bright daylight. Heavy recoil impulse.


Test Platform: Glock 17 (ser.#XXX564US) Barrel: 4.49"/114mm
Temperature: 77 F Humidity: 35% Elevation: 650 ft. ASL
Instrumental Distance: ~5 ft. (Shooting Chrony F-1)

I don't believe that they adhere to SAAMI regulation in the manufacture of these loads and I do not plan on using them other than testing them once. Although they seem to perform as advertised, it is also my impression that they batter the gun both excessively and needlessly, IMHO.

I think that they have achieved the level of performance that they claim in terms of velocity and KE, but I question the wisdom of using ammunition loaded to such extreme levels without the guarantee that such extremes will provide any improvenment in terminal performance that justify the increased rate of wear that will certainly occur from the use of such ammunition.

GS

 

[Jim March]

Gun Slinger: I think these hot loads from both companies should be used in heavy guns for their given caliber - "heavy" here meaning both strong and weighty.

In my case, shooting very hot 357 in a New Vaquero, I know that gun is stronger than a GP100 or S&W L-Frame. I had a recent opportunity to compare cylinder dimensions and I'm convinced that's the case. There are stronger and bigger 357Mag guns than mine but mine is likely among the top 10% strengthwise of all 357s made. The Doubletap and Buffbore fodder is perfect for ME.

I would also note that in very common calibers such as the 9mm, there's plenty of alternatives. BUT if you look at the product list for Buffbore in particular, Tim Sundles supports a lot of obscure calibers. There's not that many options for defensive fodder in 44Spl, 45LC, 41Mag and more. Also odd stuff like UNDERpowered 44Mag and 454Mag.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

Buffbore is doing much better in this dep't than Doubletap.

I'm not aware of k'booms associated with either brand, in any caliber. Will they cause more wear in some cases? Sure. But moderate amounts won't hurt anything in quality guns, even quality guns on the lighter side.

With all this said: I think in general both companies should be viewed as revolver-oriented (and in the heavier calibers, levergun-friendly). You can vary the power levels in wheel and lever guns without need to test rounds for autofeed compatibility, which would be costly both in terms of wear on the guns and more importantly, the financial hit (esp. Buffbore).

(Rounds can be feed-tested in leverguns without actually firing them!)

 

[Gun Slinger]

Jim,

I am inclined to agree with you. While the Glock is indeed a strong gun it is not very "weighty" and I did not find shooting the BB stuff to be a very pleasant experience. Since I usually carry the Hornady 147 gr. JHP TAP "CQ" in my Glock 17, a rather tame load at 1025 f.p.s. by comparison and find it to be all that I want, I doubt that I'll be using the BB fodder again.

Seems that you enjoy shooting revolvers and as such, I agree that for someone such as yourself who possesses revolvers of substantial design (the Ruger is as "beefy"as they get) would have much to choose from in the BB line-up. They do have quite a variety. Almost makes me wanna go and buy a revolver just to give it a try.

Haven't heard of "castastrophic explosive disassembly" as being an issue with BB ammo either as opposed to the stories that seem to relate to Double Tap most often. I wonder what the difference is, but susupect that I'll never know.

GS

 

[roscoe]

I think in general both companies should be viewed as revolver-oriented

Well, considering DoubleTap has been a 10mm-oriented company from the get go, I am not sure I agree.

I buy both brands, and the .45+P has some real sting from those guys.

 

[saspic]

This comes up all the time, I really should have saved the post where McNett originally spoke to this issue on Glocktalk or somewhere.
He said that the secret to DoubleTap's performance was not in maximum pressure achieved, but in keeping the pressure above a (relatively low) 7,000 p.s.i. for as long as possible.
When their 9 millimeter first came out, I remember him posting that the only reason it wasn't standard pressure was because 9mm fans looking for self defense ammo only consider that with +p designation. He said it he pushed it to 35,200 so it would just barely be technically into +p territory.
Notice their rather hot .45 A.C.P. isn't even +p.
http://doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php
I imagine the story with Buffalo Bore is similar.

 

[Khornet]

Double Tap

In my K-frame 1980 Model 19-4, their 158 gr Gold Dot load caused primer metal to flow into the firing pin orifice and lock the cylinder. The same ammo in my friend's much beefier Highway Patrolman worked just fine.

Their .45 ACP 200 and 230 gr loads work fine in my 1911Sc. They are brisk but quite manageable. I carry them.

 

[Rustynuts]

What's not to like with DT? 50-rds for about the same price as other "exotics" 20-rd boxes. DT and Federal HST for my SD rounds!

 

[jad0110]

Guess I'll revive this thread ...

He said that the secret to DoubleTap's performance was not in maximum pressure achieved, but in keeping the pressure above a (relatively low) 7,000 p.s.i. for as long as possible.

saspic hit the nail on the head.

The relationship between velocity and pressure is not simple and direct. A certain powder in a certain caliber in a certain barrel length can actually produce significantly higher velocity for the same or even less pressure than a less optimum powder choice. Take BB's standard pressure 158 grain 38 special load. It is roughly equivalent in performance to the famous Remington FBI load, 158 grain +P. But the pressure is lower. As saspic stated, a less than perfect powder choice will have a high, short spike in pressure. The peak pressure is what winds up being reported as the SAAMI pressure rating. Pressure spikes are less preferred for getting a bullet up to speed than a powder that applies more even pressure at a lower peak. Such a powder (without the high peak) can often drive the bullet to a higher velocity.

Richard Lee discusses the at length in Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed.

As for whether or not BB or DT adhere to SAAMI, I would think they'd be opening the door to hellacious lawsuits if they didn't.

 

[Deanimator]

I have a 10-6, so it's a "later" model (I'm guessing sometime in the '60s as opposed to the ones made in the '20s. Anyone familiar with their strength?

If your all steel S&W has a model number stamped in the crane, it should be safe with +Ps, although they will obviously wear the gun faster than 148gr. wadcutter bullseye loads.

I've got a 4" M&P that I do NOT shot +P loads through, although I doubt it would blow up.

There are also people who say that current "+P" loads are significantly less powerful than the originals.

 

[Deputy25]

My Glock 20 has digested quite a few rounds of Double Tap 10mm with Gold Dots and Golden Sabers. No ill effects, good accuracy, and great reliability. The rounds I have chrono'ed have been very close +/- 50fps of advertised velocities.