Does Neck Sizing ONLY increase overall case length?
- Thread starter Jerry D
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Don
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
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Like WalkAlong said... Yes, in most cases neck sizing will increase overall case length, but much less than as if you were full length resizing. The few times when overall length is shortened with neck sizing only, would be when changing the diameter of a case neck. Necking up a 30-06 case to 35 Whalen or 338-06 will shorten the case just a bit. Once it's fireformed, it'll have stretched a bit to be proper length. Neck sizing down in caliber does normally lengthen the overall length right off the bat.
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ranger335v
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"Does Neck Sizing ONLY increase overall case length? "
Not if you use a Lee Collet Neck Sizer.
Not if you use a Lee Collet Neck Sizer.
bobotech
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Trimming 308 brass, too short-still usable?
I was setting up my Lyman trimmer the other night and trimmed about 7 peices too short.
The min trim to length is 2.005 but I was shooting for 2.008-2.009. 5 of the brass are around 2.002 and 2 are way under at 1.996.
Are they still save to use or would I risk too much headspace and a possible blow up?
This is going to be used in my Saiga 308.
Edit: this was supposed to be in a new thread, made a new thread, delete this if necessary.
I was setting up my Lyman trimmer the other night and trimmed about 7 peices too short.
The min trim to length is 2.005 but I was shooting for 2.008-2.009. 5 of the brass are around 2.002 and 2 are way under at 1.996.
Are they still save to use or would I risk too much headspace and a possible blow up?
This is going to be used in my Saiga 308.
Edit: this was supposed to be in a new thread, made a new thread, delete this if necessary.
ranger335v
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111111
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ranger335v
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ranger335v
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"Wanna bet?"
Yeah. But we gotta use MY dies and brass! And anything at or below .002" don't count!
Yeah. But we gotta use MY dies and brass! And anything at or below .002" don't count!
OK. I'll still bet a cold drink. .003 and I'm good, right?.002" don't count!
It is a good idea to check the length after sizing every time. I doubt they would need trimming after one firing when neck sizing, but it never hurts to check. The same thing goes for checking the inside for signs incipient head separation. Do it every time. You can afford to get a bit sloppy with pistol cases, but rifle cases can get you in trouble. Be careful, be safe.
dardascastbullets
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Hi Jerry,
Overall case length will not increase if you use the proper lubricant for both the inside of the neck and the outside of neck. Full length resizing should allow the case headspace to be decreased depending of the setting of die in relation to the shell holder. It is typical to decrease the case headspace by 0.002" to prevent the bolt or slide from binding on the case.
I trust that this will answer your question.
Overall case length will not increase if you use the proper lubricant for both the inside of the neck and the outside of neck. Full length resizing should allow the case headspace to be decreased depending of the setting of die in relation to the shell holder. It is typical to decrease the case headspace by 0.002" to prevent the bolt or slide from binding on the case.
I trust that this will answer your question.
I'm on my fourth reloading of 100 .300 Win Mag cases (W-W Super) and I neck size only with a Redding neck sizing die and TiN bushings. So far I've only trimmed then once and that was after the first firing and neck sizing and they haven't "grown" even by 0.001". I don't use lubricant on the outside OR inside of the case neck.
How hard is the expander ball and sizing die swaging the neck?
That's your growth potential, right there. The cartridge brass flows forward to the neck upon firing, and your brass "growing" is just a reminder of where that brass is migrating as your expander ball transforms the thicker neck brass into extra length.
I switched to neck-sizing only for my rimmed bottleneck rounds (.303 British, .30-30 Winchester, 6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher, .30-40 Krag), and it's done wonders in prolonging case life.
RCBS X-Dies do a good job of keeping case length in check, too. I use them for .30-06, 8mm Mauser, and .308 Win/7.62mm NATO, with excellent results. I hate trimming brass, and if you're trimming every time you resize, then you know you should be looking for stretch rings in short order.
That's your growth potential, right there. The cartridge brass flows forward to the neck upon firing, and your brass "growing" is just a reminder of where that brass is migrating as your expander ball transforms the thicker neck brass into extra length.
I switched to neck-sizing only for my rimmed bottleneck rounds (.303 British, .30-30 Winchester, 6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher, .30-40 Krag), and it's done wonders in prolonging case life.
RCBS X-Dies do a good job of keeping case length in check, too. I use them for .30-06, 8mm Mauser, and .308 Win/7.62mm NATO, with excellent results. I hate trimming brass, and if you're trimming every time you resize, then you know you should be looking for stretch rings in short order.
10 Spot Terminator
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Would like to add a point to the neck sizing issue here and that is the cases will last longer as you are not working as much brass as when full length sizing with one point that you should keep in mind. As you are working the necks only it is a good idea to anneal the necks after a few firings or they can become brittle and split . This is more common in the cases with very short necks such as the 264 Mag and others like it .
Gewehr98 says:
Took one new Federal .308 Win. case, trimmed it to 2.000-in. then loaded with max charge, fired, full-length sized and reloaded it then fired it again for 47 times before running out of my test powder. Each firing shortened it about .002-inch, full-length sizing lengthen it about .0024-inch. When it got to 2.010-in. long, I trimmed it back to 2.000-in. and continued the test.
I must be doing something different. All of my rimless bottleneck and belted cases get shorter by a few thousandths when fired in standard SAAMI dimensioned chambers. Doesn't matter if they're new or full-length sized.
Took one new Federal .308 Win. case, trimmed it to 2.000-in. then loaded with max charge, fired, full-length sized and reloaded it then fired it again for 47 times before running out of my test powder. Each firing shortened it about .002-inch, full-length sizing lengthen it about .0024-inch. When it got to 2.010-in. long, I trimmed it back to 2.000-in. and continued the test.
bobotech
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47 times? Is that one of those 308s that is stamped with FC 308 on it? The same piece of 308 reloaded 47 times?
Bobotech, I don't remember what the headstamp was. It was a new round from a box of Federal 168-gr. match ammo issued by the US Navy for their rifle teams.
Yes, that same case was reloaded and fired 47 times. Others have got 80 or so reloads per case.
Wanna know the secret to doing this? Read on.
Lap the neck of a full-length sizing die to about 3 thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameter and don't use an expander ball. Set the die in the press so the fired case shoulder gets set back 2 thousandths. Prime, charge and seat the bullet. Be sure to use standard SAAMI chamber dimensions.
Ammo made this way used in Win. 70 based rifles has shot groups at long range smaller than any bench rest rifle has.
Yes, that same case was reloaded and fired 47 times. Others have got 80 or so reloads per case.
Wanna know the secret to doing this? Read on.
Lap the neck of a full-length sizing die to about 3 thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameter and don't use an expander ball. Set the die in the press so the fired case shoulder gets set back 2 thousandths. Prime, charge and seat the bullet. Be sure to use standard SAAMI chamber dimensions.
Ammo made this way used in Win. 70 based rifles has shot groups at long range smaller than any bench rest rifle has.
Bart B. said:
A couple of questions for you Bart.
1. How the heck do you accurately lap the the sizing die and measure the internal neck dimension of the die as you're doing it?
2. Would neck sizing using a Redding neck-sizing die (using 0.003" smaller bushing than the loaded round neck diameter) followed by bumping the shoulder back with a Redding body die accomplish the same thing that you're suggesting?
3. What should we be aiming for (no pun intended) in terms of accuracy?
A couple of comments too.
I have two Krieger barrels on two 700 rifles. The neck runout of loaded .300 Win Mag rounds is +/- 0.0005". I neck size only using a Redding neck-sizing die and I'm on my fourth loading but I measured the runout after the third and fourth loadings. I've just started working up loads for the .308 so I can't comment on the runout of those loads yet. However, both rifles are VERY accurate with my reloads ... easily sub 0.5MOA at 100 yards. In fact, I shot a 0.317" 5-shot group recently with the .300 Win Mag prone with a bipod. I shot a .438" 5-shot group last weekend with the .308 in the process of working up loads for it (prone with bipod). That was with brand new Lapua brass without any case preparation whatsoever. Given my results I'm not sure how much better my loads could be. Since I'm shooting 600 yard matches, my biggest concern is reducing velocity variations since that really shows up at 600 yards.
1858 asks me:
I like 1/4th MOA at 100 yards, 1/3 MOA at 300, 1/2 MOA at 600, 2/3 MOA at 800 yards and 3/4ths MOA at 1000. Here's a link to a test target using ammo with cases sized this way I shot after getting a new barrel on one of my Palma rifles:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/3394146444/in/set-72157616051794780/
Please don't show this to benchresters; they won't believe it, they'll call you and me bad names, and maybe even tell our Mommies on us!!!!!!
Sierra Bullets used virtually the same process in their plant in California. Their best 30 caliber Match Kings would shoot 10-shot test groups in the ones (under 2/10ths MOA) at their 100-yard test range. The last time I chatted with one of their techs at their Missouri plant, they still do this at their 200 yard range getting 1/4th MOA or better.
Strip the die, then chuck it in a lathe headstock; make sure it turns fairly well on center. For my 30 caliber FL dies, I took a 1/4th inch wood dowel, cut a slot in its end, then wrapped a strip of 150 grit emery paper around it to make a tight fit in the die's neck. Turn on the lathe, run the lapping tool in and out. Clean out, then measure the die's neck diameter with a hole micrometer. Lap, clean, measure...until it's 2 to 3 thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameter.
Close, but no banana in my opinion. I prefer full-length sizing dies lapped out as they hold the body-shoulder junction better in place and sized case necks from this set up are a bit straighter. I've tried a couple of expensive neck sizing dies that bumped the shoulder back; none produced the accuracy I want.
You decide the furthest you want to miss your point of aim, then double it; that's the accuracy you want, all the time, not just once in a while.
I like 1/4th MOA at 100 yards, 1/3 MOA at 300, 1/2 MOA at 600, 2/3 MOA at 800 yards and 3/4ths MOA at 1000. Here's a link to a test target using ammo with cases sized this way I shot after getting a new barrel on one of my Palma rifles:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/3394146444/in/set-72157616051794780/
Please don't show this to benchresters; they won't believe it, they'll call you and me bad names, and maybe even tell our Mommies on us!!!!!!
Sierra Bullets used virtually the same process in their plant in California. Their best 30 caliber Match Kings would shoot 10-shot test groups in the ones (under 2/10ths MOA) at their 100-yard test range. The last time I chatted with one of their techs at their Missouri plant, they still do this at their 200 yard range getting 1/4th MOA or better.
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Bart B. , thanks for answering my questions ... your expertise is much appreciated and maybe we'll finally be able to see the woods from the trees. Talking of which, how was that target shot (the one in the link)? What I mean is, barrel length/prone/bipod/sand bag/front support/rear support/conditions/time etc. It's obviously a VERY impressive target at (or slightly under) 0.5MOA at 800 yards and it's always good to know where the bar is. From your previous post it sounds like it wasn't shot from the bench.
1858, I shot that group about 5 AM in the morning in the cool spring weather; no wind, no heat waves (I could see bullet holes in the foam board) slung up in prone with an old shot bag full of rice under my front hand and another under the stock toe. The heavy Paramount action had a 32-inch whippy Kreiger 1:13 twist, .3075-in. groove barrel on it and bedded in a McMillan prone stock. Sight was an old Weaver T20 scope. My holding area on the target was about an inch at its worst.
Load was WCC60 cases full-length sized with an RWS5341 primer below 45.3 grains of IMR4895 behind some of Sierra's prototype 155-gr. Palma bullets seated out to just touch the lands. Fired two shots to get a zero then let the barrel cool down to about ambient temperature. A few minutes later, I shot those 20 shots about 25 to 30 seconds apart.
Load was WCC60 cases full-length sized with an RWS5341 primer below 45.3 grains of IMR4895 behind some of Sierra's prototype 155-gr. Palma bullets seated out to just touch the lands. Fired two shots to get a zero then let the barrel cool down to about ambient temperature. A few minutes later, I shot those 20 shots about 25 to 30 seconds apart.
This one won't.
The long range guys do some amazing stuff with their rifles. Of course, we still think we have the most accurate rifles in the world.
I will have to admit though, I did not quite dead center this fly.
I am a just decent Benchrest shooter. I would sneak up and beat the big dogs occasionally when they slipped up and I got on a roll, but I hear you are one heck of a shooter.
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