Does the .380 really have enough stopping power?

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I'm sure this question has been brought up many times, but I can't seem to find any answers that are very straight forward so here we go... I'm thinking about getting a .380 ACP in the form of something like a Kel-Tec P3AT. At that size and weight its like a CC dream come true, but I'm not so confident about the stopping power. What do you guys think? Does it have sufficient power to quickly drop a man?
You can get MagSafe ammo in .380 which is light a very fast round and when it hit target it empties shot in all different directions creating wound cavities which might make it difficult for the surgeon to save target.
 
Well people have been felled with less, and I certainly wouldn't want to be shot with one. But it wouldn't be my first choice as a defensive caliber. Certainly better than nothing, but they sure look tiny sitting next to .45ACP.
But a .357 snubbie can do much more damage that the .45ACP.
 
A .380 isn't enough. 9mm isn't enough. .40 isn't enough. 10 mm isn't enough. .50 isn't enough. Only a .45 is enough. :rolleyes:

I think if you do the math on your chances of actually using the thing, and the chances of caliber making a difference, everyone would quit worrying about the caliber war. And let's see how many people jump in and flame me on that one. I bet if the math were done, you'd have a MUCH better chance of winning the lotto. So, my advice, buy a cheap .380, and spend the rest of the money on the lotto.
But the .357 Magnum?
 
Folks I think we need to look at the context so to speak. We need to look beyond the caliber to the overall situation. Frank (357 Magnum) I agree that a .380 is a poor choice for a duty weapon. I don't think Straz is looking for that. For a gun that's never too heavy to carry, and always there, a P3AT is quite a bit of gun in a small package. I prefer my 1911 (soon to be either of them) as a primary carry gun, followed by either my BHP or my S&W M66 snubbie. None of this will pocket carry and disappear like a P3AT. None of them will carry in a neck holster when I'm out running or jogging in gym shorts and t-shirt. In those situations I'll take the P3AT over no gun. The P3AT is also a great pocket carry backup to a larger gun. I view the P3AT as a shoot back while you get the heck out of dodge gun.

If I was a peace officer - never knowing if I'd be facing well armed criminal on the next traffic stop, or a unstable person with a long gun on the next domestic disturbance - I'd certainly want the largest caliber, highest capacity weapon I could comfortably shoot and afforbably practice with riding on my duty belt. Therein lies the difference. An armed citizen arms himself in case trouble arises. A law enforcement/peace officer arms himself to deal with the trouble he must go into as part of his job.

For home defence I'll take a shotgun or carbine over any handgun.

In the end though, I'll take any firearm over a sharp stick or my bare hands. The tiny gun I can carry anywhere beats the big gun I can carry sometimes. In that context the P3AT and like guns are great tools to have in the toolbox with the others.
If you want the best concealment and the lightest in weight and smallest in size get one of those NAA .22 LR or .22 Magnum Mini Revolvers. Those are some high quality made pieces.
 
Round speed, expansion and penetration all takes us to the point we want = stop the opponent. The more the better but psychological condition of who your trying to stop plays a big role too. I had a guy in my area that was shot 7 times with a .45 and is still walking around and braking in to houses like nothing happened and I've seen people get shot with only one .25 shot and act like they got shot with a cannon and go to shock and die. Yet the old motto stands a .380 in my pocket is more effective than a AR-15 in the trunk or a 45 left at home cause its 2 heavy or hot to carry. :)
You are a good candidate for the NAA Mini Revolvers. :)
 
If you don't want to spend your life in jail any SD shooting is going to be up close. The reason people don't carry .22's is because compacts jam on rimfire. I'd gladly carry a 10 oz hi-cap reliable hi-cap pistol if they made one.
You must mean about the misfires are common in rimfires making them very unreliable. A .25 ACP would be better at least more chance if ignition and no misfire.
 
There are also multiple stories of people being shot dozens of times with a 9mm P handgun. Yet, we don't hear about it's lack of power. How many times one is shot is often dependent more on the capacity of the gun, than on the lethality of the bullet. It's a proven fact that a minimally trained shooter can empty a high-capacity semi-auto in a couple of seconds. It's empty often before the perp hits the ground.

We had to physically restrain a man who had been shot five times, COM, with 9mm +P+ JHP, from Beretta Model 92s. He lived to stand trial. That's 124 gr. +P+, at a range of less than 15 yards, from a full-size pistol. That doesn't make the 9mm, even a +P+, sound like a good self-defense caliber, now does it?

We don't all carry .25 ACP pistols because we've been told that they don't work. Even though they were commonly thought of as sufficient by entire generations of people 75 years ago. The same goes for the .32 ACP and .380 ACP for personal protection.

It's not like a reasonable person is going to face an entire Chapter of Hell's Angels, or MS13. Yet, we hear about bullet performance on sheet-metal and auto-glass, and how carrying spare guns and magazines might be necessary. If I believed half-of the reasoning espoused here, I'd be a civilian American walking the streets of Somalia, not in America.

I don't see why we're all not lugging MP5Ks under trench-coats 24/7, if the "scenarios" envisioned here were in the least bit realistic.
I guess it depends on the type of situation and how close you are to your target to be able to utilize the second necessity placement of the bullet.
 
I don't carry a .25 because it really is a pipsqueak cartridge with no stopping power. I have personal knowledge of a case where a husband shot his wife's lover with one, in the face, and the guy lived. The .25 bullet broke his front tooth and lodged in the upper palate, but penetrated no deeper. Needless to say, the guy lived.

Sure you can kill someone with a .25. Even that tiny bullet, if it hits a major artery, or some other vital part of the body, will kill. A .32 or .380 can do the same thing. And it's also true that ALL handguns are underpowered. One of the training videos they show in my department is of a state trooper (I beleive from SC, but I can't remember the state for certain) who got in a shootout at the scene of a traffic stop. He emptied his .357 at the bad guy, and put five out six shots into the torso. The bad guy lived. The bad guy, armed with one of those tiny North American Arms single action .22 revolvers, shot the trooper twice, and killed the trooper. One of the bullets missed the trooper's ballistic vest (it went through the arm opening after it passed through the trooper's arm) and hit the aorta. The trooper bled out internally within two minutes and died at the scene. Two hits with a .22 LR vs. five with a .357 magnum, and the .22 proved more deadly in this case, because even those five torso hits from the .357 failed to hit anything truly vital. That sort of thing happens.

But having said that, a .22, or any really small, underpowered cartridge is still less than optimal. Because while you can find incidents like this, it's still only one incident. When you look at a large number of shootings, you can see a pattern of larger, more powerful calibers tending to be more effective. Put simply, across a large sample of cases, more people will fall to a .45 ACP or .357 magnum than to a .32 or a .25.

This is because a bullet must to two things to incapacitate a human target: it must 1) penetrate deeply enough into the body to hit something vital to the body's ability to continue functioning, and 2) it must do enough damage to that vital something to impair the body's ability to continue functioning, and do it quickly (it doesn't help you if your assailant is mortally wounded but isn't incapacitated before he is able to complete his attack and kill you).

Now bearing all this in mind, and acknowledging that even small, non-expanding bullets can accomplish both these tasks (at least some of the time), and further acknowledging that even larger, heavier, expanding bullets can and do fail to accomplish these two essential tasks some of the time, the fact is that larger, heavier, expanding bullets do the job more consistently, and there are mountains of evidence out there to indicate that this is so.

Now another practical consideration arises: controllability. If bigger is better, why aren't we carrying handguns loaded for the .50BMG? Well obviously, with handguns, there comes a point when the power of the cartridge becomes so great that it impairs the shooter's ability to control the gun, especially for rapid follow up shots if the first misses or fails to incapacitate, and this is why, Dirty Harry notwithstanding, the .44 magnum is not optimal for self defense use.

A couple of centuries' accumulated experience has given us enough evidence that the best balance of power and controllability is achieved with calibers, bullet weights, and velocities within a certain range. Tiny calibers like the .22 LR and .25 ACP fall below that range. Large, powerful cartridges like the .44 magnum and .454 casull exceed it. So while you possibly can (and some people have) successfully defend your life with a tiny little cartridge like the .25 or .22, you'll increase your odds with something a little bigger and more powerful. And when you consider that your one and only life is on the line should you find yourself involved in a gunfight, it really only makes sense to use something more powerful, and stack the odds in your favor as much as you possibly can. The .380 ACP is at the lower end of this optimal range, which is why many call it the minimum acceptable caliber. Perhaps drawing the line here is somewhat arbitrary, and it's certainly true that determining stopping power is at best a very inexact science, which is why debate about it rages to this day. But I think there is enough evidence to support the conclusion that you are best advised to stay within the optimal power/controllability range, in order to increase your odds of prevailing as much as possible.
Just think the officer had a vest on and the guy with the .22 didn't. If the guy with the .22 had a vest he would be less hurt.
 
OP said:
What do you guys think? Does it have sufficient power to quickly drop a man?

Yes, it does. There are a lot of qualifications that can go in front of that statement, but the answer is YES. .380's have a very proven track record, as the round is just about as old as any of the auto rounds. It has been used extensively by police in Europe as well as here in the USA.

Federal hydrashocks are the way to go with this round. Fire 200 or so rounds to wear the gun in, then fire 100 or so hydrashocks(or whatever your carry round is it MUST BE HP) and those rounds MUST feed with virtually NO stoppages.

Good luck.

EDIT:

Also, quit raging on the .25 NO ONE HAS EVER REPRESENTED THE .25 / .32 / .380 as the ULTRA MAN STOPPER. It is a gun, however, that you can get cheap, in a reasonably reliable package and wear it all the time. It isn't an Home Defense gun, but it beats nothing. I carry one when I walk my dog during the summer. A LORCIN L25 .25 ACP for all the haters / clones. Yes, seriously, that is what I carry. Flame me. It works, it is reliable, it was what I could afford, it conceals easy in not much clothing. I use Hornady controlled expansion rounds in it and FMJ's.

Carry what you can. Leave the rest to God.
 
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This conversation ,though interesting has no end. Everyone who has responded is correct in some form. The point is clear. Learn to shoot. Practice. Carry. A .380 works best with FMJ IN MY OPINION. As stated by many, a poorly placed shot does nothing. A .380 lacks the ability to penetrate heavy clothing and still expand. It will do fine however in FMJ. The main objective cannot be forgotten. A weapon is better than no weapon. Aim well, fire and remove yourself from danger. The .380 PPK is the best carry gun I have ever had. Loaded with FMJ it penetrates deep and causes pain. This is called distraction. Again, aim well fire repeatedly and find good cover. Only a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 or larger :)(with a well placed torso or head shot) will immediately stop most trouble. The .380's are very easy to conceal (therefore you will probably carry them) and are light and will kill. Stop worrying about what is going to work if you can't shoot and use what you will carry.
Bob
I have heard of this before on the topic of mouse guns is that you are better off with FMJ because they feed well and the extra penetration you get in hopes of hitting a vital organ is crucial. This all depends on how close you are and again placement. But as I have said before from what I have seen of MagSafe loads those are devistating and would definitely soup up and supercharge whatever round you are using with the exception of the .22 LR as they don't make this in that caliber.
 
.380's have a very proven track record, as the round is just about as old as any of the auto rounds. It has been used extensively by police in Europe as well as here in the USA.
I don't think that any police agency use the .380 these days.
Even in Europe the 9mm Para seems to be the police caliber of choice.

And I've never heard of any police agency abandoning the 9mm Para, or the .40S&W, or the .45ACP, or the .357Sig in order to go back to the .380.
I think that most cops would call you nuts if you told them to start carrying a .380 as their service pistol.




Also, quit raging on the .25
Sorry, but the .25 just sucks.
I would never recommend a .25 to anyone...ever.
I would carry a .22 magnum before I carried a .25 pistol.
 
.380's have a very proven track record, as the round is just about as old as any of the auto rounds. It has been used extensively by police in Europe as well as here in the USA.
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I don't think that any police agency use the .380 these days.
Even in Europe the 9mm Para seems to be the police caliber of choice.

And I've never heard of any police agency abandoning the 9mm Para, or the .40S&W, or the .45ACP, or the .357Sig in order to go back to the .380.
I think that most cops would call you nuts if you told them to start carrying a .380 as their service pistol.
Police have gone to more powerful rounds because they need a round that will penetrate barriers like windshields and car doors.

Yes police want a round that will penetrate barriers like windshields and car doors.

For self defense I don't think we need to be able to shoot through windshields.
 
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Yes police want a round that will penetrate barriers like windshields and car doors.
Yes, but most of all police want a round that will quickly stop a human aggressor.
The .380 does not have a good reputation for doing so.

For self defense I don't think we need to be able to shoot through windshields.
Maybe not, but I too want a round that will quickly stop a human aggressor.
Which why I carry a .40 instead of a .380.
 
Yes, but most of all police want a round that will quickly stop a human aggressor.
The .380 does not have a good reputation for doing so.


Maybe not, but I too want a round that will quickly stop a human aggressor.
Which why I carry a .40 instead of a .380.
There are all kinds of instances where BGs have been hit by more powerful rounds than a 380 and continued to fight long enough to harm or kill police officers. If you want to have a round that has proven instant stopping power you will need 00 buckshot and not a pistol.
 
There are all kinds of instances where BGs have been hit by more powerful rounds than a 380 and continued to fight long enough to harm or kill police officers.
True, but the odds are much greater of stopping someone with a .40 slug than a .380 slug, all other things being equal.
 
Let's hurry up and put this "Does .380 ACP have enough stopping power?" argument to rest so we can start arguing over whether 9mm Luger has enough stopping power.
 
I don't think that any police agency use the .380 these days.
Even in Europe the 9mm Para seems to be the police caliber of choice.

And I've never heard of any police agency abandoning the 9mm Para, or the .40S&W, or the .45ACP, or the .357Sig in order to go back to the .380.
I think that most cops would call you nuts if you told them to start carrying a .380 as their service pistol.





Sorry, but the .25 just sucks.
I would never recommend a .25 to anyone...ever.
I would carry a .22 magnum before I carried a .25 pistol.
Does .22 Mag have lots of misfires like .22LR?
 
Hi, guys...

I live in Brazil, and the .380 is the biggest auto pistol caliber allowed for civilians.
I am a criminal lawyer, and I have a CCW permit, wich is very difficult, not to say almost impossible to obtain nowadays...
I carry a Beretta 84F, with 90gr. Hydra Shock bullets, loaded to 1160~1180 fps.
Since there are lots of .380s in the streets, there are lots of statistics and reports about .380 wounds.

The general consensus is that, like everybody already knows, the .380 is a great killer, but a poor stopper.
I know there are different cases and uses for the gun in a self defense situation, but a common use around here, just for example, is to use the gun to shoot a BG thru your car window. (Yes - the most typical form of robbery in large cities around here happens when you stop - by day or by night - at a stoplight, and the BG aproches by the driver's window, asking for money, wallet, wristwatch, purse or bag... whatever you have in sight)

So, there are lots of reports of citizens shooting the bad guys thru the window, and the .380 is well known by it's bad performance thru glass. That said, there is a general "order" that when you soot the BG thru the window, you should shoot a lot. The first round break the glass (hitting the BG, of course) but with a reduced velocity and the following shots can do the job.

Since we use the .380 in big plataforms (the most common pistols here are the Glock 25, CZ83, Taurus PT58 and the IMBEL - a 1911 clone in .380 with a 19 shot capacity) everybory who carry, trains rapid fire, double taps and quick follow ups... Just because knowing the limitations of power, you know that if you need to shoot, you shoot till the threat is down.

back to the reports, there are lots of shootouts where a druged BG received lots of shots without stoping and again, lots and lots of one shot stops too...

Wich confirm the general wisdom, that it's shot placement that counts...

But since in a self defence, a stressfull situation, you cannot relly on the same abilities you have at a training range, the better rule, in my humble opinion, is to use the biggest, strongest caliber available, since your shot, as I said can be less than perfect...

Excuse my English...

Regards,

Andre Tiba - Brazil
 
Does .22 Mag have lots of misfires like .22LR?
I have a Ruger and it has never had a misfire with .22LR.
And neither of my .22LR rifles (a Remington and a Savage) have ever had misfires.

Maybe it's your gun?
 
Does the .380 really have enough stopping power?

Two in the upper thorax and one in the face is the drill I use. <...>
 
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Ever see that video where the guy in the vest takes a shot from a .22cal. revolver from an associate.....that little bullet dropped him off his feet and hurt like heck and that was with the vest on.

All these calibers discussed here will do you in. Even the .17cal will eventually end a career.....but will it stop a threat immediately..........not likely.

That's why the larger more powerful calibers are required.....to stop the threat now.....not stop your clock 5 minutes from now.
 
I have a Ruger and it has never had a misfire with .22LR.
And neither of my .22LR rifles (a Remington and a Savage) have ever had misfires.

Maybe it's your gun?
I have had them in a Browning Buckmark, Ruger 10/22 and NAA mini revolver. All are Long rifle.22. Nothing ever with the .22 MAG but I don't use that as much.
 
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