Does the .40 S&W Just Need More Time?

[Plink]

I don't dislike the .40. I just don't own one because I don't see a need, for many of the reasons already mentioned. It's a "tweener". I already own 9mms and .45s. I don't need something in between. The 9mm with smart ammo choices (unlike the Miami FBI folks made) is plenty effective enough, and so is the .45 ACP. All in all, with proper loads, all the main defense cartridges are pretty close in effectiveness. I don't own a 10mm for similar reasons. It's a bit too snappy for fast followups in self defense, and if I want to hunt, I'll just use the .44 mag.

 

[Brass Rain]

I've fired my dad's Beretta in .40 caliber and I think it's fine. Enough oomph to feel like you're getting things done, but not enough that it's unpleasant at all. I'd even like a 10mm one day--maybe a Kimber Eclipse II or a Delta Elite.

 

[NvTwist]

I just picked up a full size Baby Eagle in 40 S&W and 200 rounds of Rem 180gr JHP at the gun show this weekend but haven't taken it out yet. I've owned .380, 9mm, 45acp, 357mag, 44mag & others but this is my first .40 so as soon as I get out and shoot I'll be able to chime in.

 

[redneckrepairs]

you can give the .40 all the time you want to and i still wont like it . I dont mind and even like the original 10 mm . I love the .45 and the 9mm . however the snappy recoil and lack of an advantage leaves me hollow for the .40 but then i dont care for the .357 sig either lol . call me old school .

 

[FieroCDSP]

I'm of the opinion that the .40 is a solution looking for an answer. Given modern bullet construction, the 9mm is every bit as effective with a (usually)higher capacity magazine.

Remember the initial reason for the FBI adopting the 10mm years ago. They wanted a larger bullet than a 9mm, and velocities better than a 45. Well, the 10mm is a wicked round to some people.

Fact is, at that time, there was not a 9mm load that had the ability to do "as much damage" as a 10mm or a 45. Terminal ballistics weren't as well studied as they are now, and exotic hollow-points weren't as plentiful. So a 10mm bullet with a 9mm capacity and 9mm velocities, but with nearly the hole-punching ability of a 45,and marginally more felt recoil... this seemed a great idea.

Were it introduced today, the 40 would fail as bad as the 45 GAP, simply because a modern expanding 9mm is as effective as a modern 45, both of which are designed around information and understanding that wasn't around back when the 40 was originally introduced.
The 40 is a good round, and can be controlled with practice. But applying todays knowledge as a standard to a round developed when that knowledge wasn't known is like saying "the 32ACP is a solution looking for a problem". It was a round designed for a purpose that other rounds didn't meet at that time.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I just wonder if there had been a High Road internet forum back in the early part of the 20th century, would people be saying, "I don't care how long it's around, I won't ever like this new .45 ACP because it doesn't do anything better than my .45 Long Colt. And my .38 Long Colt has less recoil."

I know it's not quite the same because back then, there were much fewer choices and the .45ACP filled a MUCH larger gap than the .40 S&W does today, but surely the .40 S&W still serves a purpose. Maybe look at it this way: A Kel-Tec P32 holds 7 rounds of .32ACP. The P-3AT holds 1 less round of .380ACP. Would you rather defend your life against a human target with 7 rounds of .32 or 6 rounds of .380? That's kind of how I look at 9mm vs. .40. The .40 may hold a few less rounds, but packs a big enough punch to make up the difference. The original .45 Long Colt black powder cartridge could muster 1,000 fps and 566 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy, according to a quick check on Wikipedia. Ahhh, but the Colt 1911 chambered in .45ACP held 1 more round. Such a huge advancement!

 

[CajunBass]

I don't dislike the 40. I just don't want one.

 

[edrice]

So why does it seem that the .45ACP has been embraced by all, but the .40 S&W still has some major nay-sayers? Is it simply that the .45 has had 100 years and many wars to prove itself and that the .40 is still young and needs some time to catch on?

Pure and simple emotional attachment and bias. It's a status thing with some people and you can never kill off that inate, inferior need to identify with diamond rings, or a flashy Mercedes or BMW, to fill a gap or something that's missing on the inside. Same thing with firearms brands and calibers. The old Ford/Chevy war - only one will get you there and the other won't even start. It doesn't make much sense but some people have to do these things and put something down to feel good about themselves.

Although many might argue, I believe most detractors (including myself) believe that it just doesn't do anything another cartridge could do better. It doesn't hold as many rounds as the 9mm, it's not as big as the .45, and it's not as powerful as the 10mm. So basically it serves no real purpose.

You don't explain how you arrived at that conclusion. Relegating a class of firearm into purposelessness seems to be a growing fashion in the last decade or so, and is highly suspect.

The other side of the coin that wasn't mentioned is that it is bigger than the 9mm and holds more than the .45, which very definitely serves a purpose.

I own both the .40 and .45 and like them both. Obviously I hold more nostalgia for the .45 because I've had my father's WWII Colt 1911 for the last four decades. I own two more in Remington Rand and Springfield Armory.

The .45 serves me best as home defense with lower pressure and muzzle blast for indoors where likely fewer rounds will be needed. But the .40 rides in my truck with more capacity and flatter distance shooting for outdoors where muzzle blast is not as relevant.

Seems optimal for both situations. Why should I let bias or nostalgia get in the way logic? I love my .45s, but my .40 serves a definite purpose. The 10mm? Who needs it? Doesn't serve any purpose for me, since I don't hunt with pistols and for defense it serves no purpose that the .40 and .45 won't fill suffuciently and admirably.

Ed

 

[edrice]

Lets do this another way -

Lets get a team of 10 people who are good shots and give them each a .45 and team of 10 people who are bad shots and give them each a .40.

Drop the flag and the battle is on. Who do you think wins the war?

Then reverse it and give the good shots the .40 and the bad shots the .45.

Who wins the war?

Then for fun, give the good shots a 9mm and the bad shots a 10mm.

Now who wins the war?

Answers please!

Ed

 

[Master of Arms]

?????

The .40 s&w is a great caliber. It has the speed and the energy to boot.
The .40 loaded with 165 grain JHP has a velocity of about 1050 fps and 397 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards. This is "factory" ammo.
In comparison, a .45 loaded with a 165 grain JHP has 980 fps and 350 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards. Again, factory ammo.

Now if you were to scale these figures and allow for the case size, you would probably use a 185 grain bullet for the figures on the .45 but even with an equal sized and shaped bullet with the same barrel length you can see an example of "why" the .40 s&w is making its mark.

I, of course, have it and I`ve shot in in a Ruger, CZ 75 B and my Glock. I am an average size man and the recoil has little or no effect on me. My B`n Law has a Glock .45 cal and the recoil of it is much greater.
Some people just don`t like it because its new but most who have tried it, like it.

These are my thoughts on this thread. The figures came directly from two different ballistic charts.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

Remember the initial reason for the FBI adopting the 10mm years ago. They wanted a larger bullet than a 9mm, and velocities better than a 45. Well, the 10mm is a wicked round to some people.

Fact is, at that time, there was not a 9mm load that had the ability to do "as much damage" as a 10mm or a 45. Terminal ballistics weren't as well studied as they are now, and exotic hollow-points weren't as plentiful. So a 10mm bullet with a 9mm capacity and 9mm velocities, but with nearly the hole-punching ability of a 45,and marginally more felt recoil... this seemed a great idea.

Were it introduced today, the 40 would fail as bad as the 45 GAP, simply because a modern expanding 9mm is as effective as a modern 45, both of which are designed around information and understanding that wasn't around back when the 40 was originally introduced.
The 40 is a good round, and can be controlled with practice. But applying todays knowledge as a standard to a round developed when that knowledge wasn't known is like saying "the 32ACP is a solution looking for a problem". It was a round designed for a purpose that other rounds didn't meet at that time.

I started to go off on the same tangent and then stopped myself. I'm glad you did all that typing for me.

My point is that at the time it was developed there was a real hole to fill. Now, it's just an extraneous cartridge, though one that many law enforcement agencies went to back then and still use now.

If I'm going to the .40ish cartridge, I'll take a 10mm or a .41 Mag, thankyouverymuch.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A +P 200 grain .45 ACP will also hit 1050 fps, and yields about 489 fps, or almost 140 ft lbs more than the 1050 .40 S&W 165 grain load.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The FBI thought the 10mm had too much power and recoil for the average shooter,

Actually I have been told by several Special Agents involved in the adoption of the 40 by the FBI that a specific sub-group of special agents couldn't handle the recoil of the 10mm in the chosen handgun, and had problems qualifying, so the PC gurus couldn't let this sub-group look bad, so they had the .40 S&W made.

When it first cam out I thought it was a great combination, heavier and more effective than the 9mm at that time, and just a bit smaller to allow it to be used in existing high capacity handgun designs. Brilliant! Then reality set in.

and from law enforcement reports, it seems to be very effective at neutralizing threats rapidly.

Here's one .... personal experience....point blank range, round penetrated the side window of a pickup truck at point-blank range, passed through suspect's left forearm missing bone, and bounced OFF the suspect's chest! Glock 22 & Federal Hydroshock ammunition. So much for rapid neutralization.

The .40 loaded with 165 grain JHP has a velocity of about 1050 fps and 397 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards. This is "factory" ammo.
In comparison, a .45 loaded with a 165 grain JHP has 980 fps and 350 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards

That's all well and dandy..., folks can compare ballistic charts all day long, but for me the proof is in the pudding, and had I had a 230 grain .45 acp ball load coming out of a Government 1911A1, instead of that .40 S&W Hydroshock, the fight would've been over.

MY ADVICE is twofold. First burn your ballistic muzzle velocity and energy charts, and start testing ammo for penetration on things like car windows, car doors, metal trash cans, clothing, and bone & soft tissue. Second, I noticed that those folks who think the .40 S hort & W eak is such a great round also advocate a very "hot" load in that cartridge which they have the liberty to choose (I am bound to use issued ammo), so by all means use the hottest ammunition you can possibly handle.

It's possible the load is to blame not the handgun or the cartridge design itself, but I am confident that any factory .45 acp 230 grain ball load would've out performed what happened to me last year. If I had a choice I'd carry my Para in .45 acp. I might not be so lucky next time, and I'd rather KNOW the round will put the bad guy out of the fight, rather than HOPE it will do what it's supposedly touted to do.

LD

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually I have been told by several Special Agents involved in the adoption of the 40 by the FBI that a specific sub-group of special agents couldn't handle the recoil of the 10mm in the chosen handgun, and had problems qualifying, so the PC gurus couldn't let this sub-group look bad, so they had the .40 S&W made.

It is a well-known fact that if a certain subgroup is involved in a gunfight, opponents will fall when hit by rounds that normally wouldn't stop them, rather than be considered UN-PC.

Hills are lower, not so steep, and so on, for that same group.

 

[easyg]

Here's my two cent's worth....

The .40 is nearly perfect for a full-sized service pistol.
It's more effective than the 9mm and it has more magazine capacity than the .45.

I think that the .40 will one day surpass the 9mm and the .45 in full-sized service pistols....if the military ever adopts a .40 caliber handgun.

Where the 9mm really shines is in small compact and sub-compact pocket-pistols.
There will always be a need for small, light-weight, concealable handguns....so the 9mm, the .380, and the .38 snubbie will always be around.

I think that the days of the .45ACP are dwindling.
I talk to the local gun shop guys and they tell me that they're just not selling so much....not nearly as much as the 9mm and the .40.

 

[Master of Arms]

A +P 200 grain .45 ACP will also hit 1050 fps, and yields about 489 fps, or almost 140 ft lbs more than the 1050 .40 S&W 165 grain load.

well lets try to keep the scale of our stats balanced.
I gave an equal but leaned in favor of the .45 stat which is a good estimate because of load sizes.
Sorry OP I`ll not say more, I know how this can go.

 

[wnycollector]

I dont have a problem with the .40 S&W. I own a CZ40B that shoots as well as my 9mm and .45 SIGs for 1/2 the price. I'm sure if I do my job with bullet placement the .40 will do its job.

 

[General Geoff]

A +P 200 grain .45 ACP will also hit 1050 fps, and yields about 489 fps, or almost 140 ft lbs more than the 1050 .40 S&W 165 grain load.

Comparing a +P rated .45ACP to .40S&W is unfair, you should be comparing it to 10mm Auto. That being the case, find me any .45ACP +P load that will yield 750+ ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Comparing a +P rated .45ACP to .40S&W is unfair, you should be comparing it to 10mm Auto. That being the case, find me any .45ACP +P load that will yield 690+ ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

How do you get a 10mm round to chamber in a .40 S&W?

 

[General Geoff]

There's no .40S&W +P standard. The closest thing is 10mm Auto.

 

[edrice]

Seems to me that discussions of velocities and energies are almost meaningless if sectional density is ignored. 165 grain .40s and .45s are just not the same thing.

Ed

 

[Blues Brother]

well, I realize that the 9mm vs. .40 cal debate will probably rage on forever......but I have to say I have nothing against a .40 cal round. I just choose 9mm because of economics. Its much cheaper to shoot 9mm rounds than .40 cal. and IMO, for all practical purposes the differences arent THAT dramatic. I know people will forever argue the "stopping power" of a 40 vs. the mag capacity of a 9, etc..... I respect the .40 and what it does. Its a fine caliber and I can say nothing bad about it. I just feel comfortable with a 9mm and like the economy factor of ammo. I have no problems carrying a 9mm for self defense, heck I carry a .380 Ruger LCP loaded with hollow points as a self defense gun and I trust my life to its effectiveness otherwise I would not carry it. I truly feel the best defense is to avoid any conflict, and if there is no other option and your life is in danger then we do what we must to protect ourselves, and I think the most important part of that is effective control of panick and proper shot placement on an attacker. If you truly are left with no other option but to shoot an attacker at close range, I really dont think the difference in a .380/9mm/.40/.45 round is going to make that much difference to a bad guy. Heck, a proper placed shot with a .22 cal is probably better than a poorly placed shot with a .44 mag.

but again, this is ALL opinion.

 

[zxcvbob]

How do you get a 10mm round to chamber in a .40 S&W?

Hammer?

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

geoff if we are going to play that game fine, you can have your 10mm auto but then i can have a .454 casull because its a .45 caliber so my ".45" still trumps your ".40"
the thread is about the 40s&w if +p isn't offered then you can't use it plain and simple. if you are talking bout handloads, i might be inclined to agree with you but then i might not because the .40 doesn't have the case capacity of the 10mm

 

[tipoc]

I think FieroCDSP was on the right track.

The 40 S&W never has been, and likely won't be, a threat to the .45 acp in terms of the popularity of cartridges. It was and will continue to be a threat to the 9mm.

It was in the early and mid 80s that law enforcement began the transition for revolvers to auto loaders. They went with the 9mm almost universally. This was the decade of the "wondernine" where high capacity 9mms were the "way to go". Then came the Miami shootout and the death of FBI agents there. One of the factors the FBI attributed the deaths to rightly or wrongly was the "failure" of the 9mm ammo they were using to penetrate deeply enough. This led them to revive the 10mm. Problems ensued so the 40S&W was born. The FBI's decision had a profound influence on the rest of law enforcement who began to move away from the 9mm to the 40S&W and other rounds. It also had an influence on ammo manufacturers who set out to improve their ammo and did so across the board.

The 40 S&W can be a very effective round. There are a lot of loads for it. Some much better at some jobs than others. Some of the mid range loads have been downloaded to make recoil more acceptable for the recoil sensitive. These do not do so well on the street but are handy for target work. Others have been specifically designed to penetrate auto glass and other barriers and still penetrate 12" in 10% ballistic gelatin.

The 40S&W works well at it's job with the right ammo. It can be fit in guns the same size as the 9mm. Something the 10mm or the .45acp have a harder time doing. The round is a good choice for someone who's looking for a good self defense gun.

For some of us who've been around for a bit and have their 9s and .45s well the extra cartridge does not necessarily play a role. I've owned a G22 and 26, fine guns. But I didn't need the extra caliber.

tipoc