easyg
Member
I don't believe that energy is the main determining factor in bullet effectiveness, but I think that it must have some bearing on the matter....otherwise a .38 special would be just as effective as a .357 magnum, no?
Does the .40 S&W Just Need More Time?
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px4storm
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Thanks BoilerUp for your post!
I am new to the world of handguns (since April 2008) and in several forums I've been reading these 9 vs .40 vs .45 debates and I always walk away confused thinking that there has to be a definitive answer but I'm still never sure what it is. :banghead:
After reading your post I find myself feeling much better about understanding this debate. I currently own a 9mm and I've been wondering if I should move up to a .40. My conclusion . . . I will start saving up for a new .40 for my ccw.
Josh Aston wrote:
On the other hand...
It hits harder than the 9mm, holds more rounds than a .45, more manageable than a 10 mm - a cartridge for all seasons, a veritable swiss-army round.
It may not excel in any category, but it does an acceptable job in every category. This is probably why it is so popular in LEO circles and why it is (I believe) the fastest growing in popularity over the last decade or so.
I own all 3. I like the 9mm for classes (controllable, cheaper, less punishing to shoot 1,000 rounds), the .45 for going up against a single assailant, and the .40 for ccw where I may not have numbers and home turf advantage on my side.
On the other hand...
It hits harder than the 9mm, holds more rounds than a .45, more manageable than a 10 mm - a cartridge for all seasons, a veritable swiss-army round.
It may not excel in any category, but it does an acceptable job in every category. This is probably why it is so popular in LEO circles and why it is (I believe) the fastest growing in popularity over the last decade or so.
I own all 3. I like the 9mm for classes (controllable, cheaper, less punishing to shoot 1,000 rounds), the .45 for going up against a single assailant, and the .40 for ccw where I may not have numbers and home turf advantage on my side.
papajohn
Member
Quote:
Can somebody tell me why muzzle energy figures are relevant? Is there a point where a bullet has enough muzzle energy to have "Stopping Power", or "Knockdown Power, or some other mythical, non-existant property?
At the risk of being redundant, muzzle energy figures are horribly skewed in favor of the lighter, faster bullets. The formula is velocity SQUARED times mass. It's a horrible system of measurement. Is a 17 Remington going 4,100 feet a second a good stopper? Muzzle energy says yes..........reality says no. /Quote.
"I don't believe that energy is the main determining factor in bullet effectiveness, but I think that it must have some bearing on the matter....otherwise a .38 special would be just as effective as a .357 magnum, no?"
Energy matters, but it's the ME system of RATING that energy that I find flawed. Momentum would be a much less skewed indicator, a better way of comparing apples to apples. Velocity helps flatten trajectory, which is a good thing, but velocity alone doesn't make for the perfect cartridge. It's a compromise involving bullet design, momentum, expansion, penetration, recoil (or lack thereof) and a few other things.
Is the 40 a compromise? You betcha........and a damned good one. It's attributes have already been spelled out. As I pointed out before, it's VERY popular with civilians AND Law Enforcement, with good reason. If it was a lousy design, it would have died a rapid death, but it's flourishing. 'Nuff said.
PJ
Can somebody tell me why muzzle energy figures are relevant? Is there a point where a bullet has enough muzzle energy to have "Stopping Power", or "Knockdown Power, or some other mythical, non-existant property?
At the risk of being redundant, muzzle energy figures are horribly skewed in favor of the lighter, faster bullets. The formula is velocity SQUARED times mass. It's a horrible system of measurement. Is a 17 Remington going 4,100 feet a second a good stopper? Muzzle energy says yes..........reality says no. /Quote.
"I don't believe that energy is the main determining factor in bullet effectiveness, but I think that it must have some bearing on the matter....otherwise a .38 special would be just as effective as a .357 magnum, no?"
Energy matters, but it's the ME system of RATING that energy that I find flawed. Momentum would be a much less skewed indicator, a better way of comparing apples to apples. Velocity helps flatten trajectory, which is a good thing, but velocity alone doesn't make for the perfect cartridge. It's a compromise involving bullet design, momentum, expansion, penetration, recoil (or lack thereof) and a few other things.
Is the 40 a compromise? You betcha........and a damned good one. It's attributes have already been spelled out. As I pointed out before, it's VERY popular with civilians AND Law Enforcement, with good reason. If it was a lousy design, it would have died a rapid death, but it's flourishing. 'Nuff said.
PJ
RockyMtnTactical
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Part of the problem is that there are so many people with guns chambered in .45 and 9mm and they love one or both of those calibers better.
I think newer shooters are much more receptive to .40's for this reason.
Seriously though, who cares? A firearm in any of those 3 calibers is about as effective as the other...
I think newer shooters are much more receptive to .40's for this reason.
Seriously though, who cares? A firearm in any of those 3 calibers is about as effective as the other...
chieftain
Member
It's about the software, not not hardware.
1. Choose a reliable gun that fits you, not you to it. Reliability is the singularly most important aspect of any weapon.
2. Choose the gun in the caliber it was originally designed for. Like with the Glock, the 9mm is the most reliable versions, of each size Glock makes.
3. Learn your gun. How to do ALL maintenance, down to the smallest part. Clean it EVERY TIME YOU USE IT. EVERY TIME. Learn how to take that Glock, 1911, SIG, HK, Beretta etc... all the way down, for inspection and maintenance. Change your springs on the manufacturers schedule, not yours. There is a reason they made the schedule they have. (no selling more parts is not it.) (also stock extra parts, springs, pins, firing pins, levers and such.)
3. Get quality training, as much as your time and wallet can afford. Then get some more. Frankly one could say you literally cannot get enough. But one must be practical. None is not a good option.
4. Quality practice. That ain't what you do when you go to your local range and stand there and shoot. Get lots of quality practice.
Listen to folks that have actually been in and won gunfights. Not in the movies, TV or on the web. Shooting a weapon is not like competing with a weapon or hunting and none of them are like fighting a weapon. Fighting a weapon against folks who shoot back trying to kill you, and refuse to or will not die for you, is an adventure that I do not recommend.
After all of that, if caliber is still the question, you really don't understand the problem.
Once again, it's software, over hardware. Spend your money, which you can always choose to get more of, and particularly your time, wisely.
Go figure.
Fred
1. Choose a reliable gun that fits you, not you to it. Reliability is the singularly most important aspect of any weapon.
2. Choose the gun in the caliber it was originally designed for. Like with the Glock, the 9mm is the most reliable versions, of each size Glock makes.
3. Learn your gun. How to do ALL maintenance, down to the smallest part. Clean it EVERY TIME YOU USE IT. EVERY TIME. Learn how to take that Glock, 1911, SIG, HK, Beretta etc... all the way down, for inspection and maintenance. Change your springs on the manufacturers schedule, not yours. There is a reason they made the schedule they have. (no selling more parts is not it.) (also stock extra parts, springs, pins, firing pins, levers and such.)
3. Get quality training, as much as your time and wallet can afford. Then get some more. Frankly one could say you literally cannot get enough. But one must be practical. None is not a good option.
4. Quality practice. That ain't what you do when you go to your local range and stand there and shoot. Get lots of quality practice.
Listen to folks that have actually been in and won gunfights. Not in the movies, TV or on the web. Shooting a weapon is not like competing with a weapon or hunting and none of them are like fighting a weapon. Fighting a weapon against folks who shoot back trying to kill you, and refuse to or will not die for you, is an adventure that I do not recommend.
After all of that, if caliber is still the question, you really don't understand the problem.
Once again, it's software, over hardware. Spend your money, which you can always choose to get more of, and particularly your time, wisely.
Go figure.
Fred
tipoc
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By PX4storm,
The answer depends on the question. If the questions are confused so are the answers. If the question is "Of the 9mm, 40S&W or the 45 acp which is the hardest hitting round?" Than the answer is that the 45 beats the 9mm in terms of being a hard hitter in most all loadings. Some loads of the 40 S&W can beat the 45 ACP in some loads, equal it in others and aren't as good as some loadings of the 45 ACP in others. Some loads for the 9mm are as good as some loads of the 40 S&W. In terms of hitting a target hard in general .
Folks often overlook in these debates that there are different loadings and different bullets available for all these rounds. Folks can have whole debates on whether the 155 gr. loading for the 40 S&W is "better" than the 180 gr. load, which bullet is better, etc. All within the same caliber. Fellas can go on for pages with this.
If the question is what load is best for self defense than the answer is the one Chieftain (and others) gave above. Any of these rounds will work well. The "definitive answer" is that it's the software and not the hardware.
When you bought a 9mm as your first handgun you made one of the better decisions a new shooter could make IMHO. Ammo is plentiful and relatively inexpensive, recoil is moderate, etc. and this allows a shooter to develop their skills. It's the skills of the shooter, more than the caliber of the round, that count. The 9mm allows for a good deal of practice and to learn the gun. It can also be, with some loadings as hard hitting and as effective a round in self defense as many of the loadings of the 40 S&W.
tipoc
The answer depends on the question. If the questions are confused so are the answers. If the question is "Of the 9mm, 40S&W or the 45 acp which is the hardest hitting round?" Than the answer is that the 45 beats the 9mm in terms of being a hard hitter in most all loadings. Some loads of the 40 S&W can beat the 45 ACP in some loads, equal it in others and aren't as good as some loadings of the 45 ACP in others. Some loads for the 9mm are as good as some loads of the 40 S&W. In terms of hitting a target hard in general .
Folks often overlook in these debates that there are different loadings and different bullets available for all these rounds. Folks can have whole debates on whether the 155 gr. loading for the 40 S&W is "better" than the 180 gr. load, which bullet is better, etc. All within the same caliber. Fellas can go on for pages with this.
If the question is what load is best for self defense than the answer is the one Chieftain (and others) gave above. Any of these rounds will work well. The "definitive answer" is that it's the software and not the hardware.
When you bought a 9mm as your first handgun you made one of the better decisions a new shooter could make IMHO. Ammo is plentiful and relatively inexpensive, recoil is moderate, etc. and this allows a shooter to develop their skills. It's the skills of the shooter, more than the caliber of the round, that count. The 9mm allows for a good deal of practice and to learn the gun. It can also be, with some loadings as hard hitting and as effective a round in self defense as many of the loadings of the 40 S&W.
tipoc
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kmrcstintn
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took me a while & few failed attempts with other .40 S&W handguns to finally accept it for what it is; a decent handgun caliber for defense againt two legged critters who wish to do me harm; even though revolvers & 9mm semis will outrank .40 S&W in my book, I have come to respect it enough to give it another try; this time around I got a Springfield Armory XD 40 subcompact...yeah the barrel is short & with the carry mag I loose 2 or 3 round capacity to a duty sized weapon, but the little sucker will tuck away in the car or on me much better than my perennial favorite autoloader...Beretta 92 FS; I am quite suprised how well the small platform absorbed recoil; if I want lower recoil, I just load a 165gr jhp that is not as fast as the 155gr or 180gr loads that are available; for now I'll use Hornady XTP 155gr jhp's (in Custom, CQ TAP, or TAP FPD) since it feeds well, groups good, and has a strong reputation for balancing penetration & expansion
evan price
Member
I don't feel the need for a .40.
If I want concealable and lightweight, I carry a 9mm. If I want the best manstopper I carry a .45. The idea of a compromise in .40 S&W might be best for people who have to choose the best of both worlds. I find myself fortunate that I don't have to compromise.
Basically the .40 is a 10mm Special. It can't be "+P'ed" because it is already right at the edge of its limits.
The 9mm is 35K psi, the .40 is also 35K psi, 9mm+P is 37.5K psi. And that is modern weak SAAMI specs, the European 9mm is at least +P already.
Compare a .40 to a 9mm+P loaded to PROPER levels, and it's a wash.
Heck, they might as well have just gone with .38 Super Auto +P and the .40 S&W would have never needed to be invented, at all.
If I want concealable and lightweight, I carry a 9mm. If I want the best manstopper I carry a .45. The idea of a compromise in .40 S&W might be best for people who have to choose the best of both worlds. I find myself fortunate that I don't have to compromise.
Basically the .40 is a 10mm Special. It can't be "+P'ed" because it is already right at the edge of its limits.
The 9mm is 35K psi, the .40 is also 35K psi, 9mm+P is 37.5K psi. And that is modern weak SAAMI specs, the European 9mm is at least +P already.
Compare a .40 to a 9mm+P loaded to PROPER levels, and it's a wash.
Heck, they might as well have just gone with .38 Super Auto +P and the .40 S&W would have never needed to be invented, at all.
CHEVELLE427
Member
40sw
build it and they will buy it ,
if they buy alot of it ,
make more of it,
if they dont buy into it ,
dont make alot of it.
LOOKS LIKE THEY BOUGHT IT
cause there sure is alot of 40's out here.
me im the 45ACP type.
but i do have & carry a XDSC40 most of the time.
Years back before the 40 was thought about. We were shooting at a local dump (use to be able to do thing like that) anyway there was a pile of toilets there.
Shot one with my then 9mm, toilet broke,
shot one with my now 45 toilet busted up pretty good,
shot the other with my 44mag and the toilet blew all apart.
I have not been able to repeat this with a 40, but IM sure it would bust it up better then the 9mm did.
some like small guns some like them bigger.
build it and they will buy it ,
if they buy alot of it ,
make more of it,
if they dont buy into it ,
dont make alot of it.
LOOKS LIKE THEY BOUGHT IT
cause there sure is alot of 40's out here.
me im the 45ACP type.
but i do have & carry a XDSC40 most of the time.
Years back before the 40 was thought about. We were shooting at a local dump (use to be able to do thing like that) anyway there was a pile of toilets there.
Shot one with my then 9mm, toilet broke,
shot one with my now 45 toilet busted up pretty good,
shot the other with my 44mag and the toilet blew all apart.
I have not been able to repeat this with a 40, but IM sure it would bust it up better then the 9mm did.
some like small guns some like them bigger.
BoilerUP
Member
A lot of times people say the .40 is pointless if you have a 9mm and a .45. But I say if you have a .40, there's no point in owning a 9mm or a .45.
What's not to like? 9mm like capacity with at least .45 ACP performance and often more so ... seems simple to me. Anyone who complains about the recoil in a .40 being so much worse than the 9mm or .45 isn't thinking straight. I shoot all three, and I shoot all three equally well. Why turn down big capacity, big bullets, and big power when it's there for the taking?
What's not to like? 9mm like capacity with at least .45 ACP performance and often more so ... seems simple to me. Anyone who complains about the recoil in a .40 being so much worse than the 9mm or .45 isn't thinking straight. I shoot all three, and I shoot all three equally well. Why turn down big capacity, big bullets, and big power when it's there for the taking?
tipoc
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See, BoilerUp is right. In general the 40S&W is a more powerful round than the 9mm. In general this is true. It's also true that in general the 40S&W is not the equal of the 45 acp, as some folks will occasionally say.
The old saying that, for self defense, one should pick the most powerful round that they can handle well, in a gun that they can handle well, is a true statement.
It's also true that for some shooters in some guns the 9mm is a better choice.
These things are not mutually exclusive. They are just different statements of fact.
Handgun rounds are not all the same. Some are more capable of doing certain jobs than others. It's a mistake to confuse two different things; these are what round per se is more powerful and what round may be best for some shooters. Two different things.
tipoc
The old saying that, for self defense, one should pick the most powerful round that they can handle well, in a gun that they can handle well, is a true statement.
It's also true that for some shooters in some guns the 9mm is a better choice.
These things are not mutually exclusive. They are just different statements of fact.
Handgun rounds are not all the same. Some are more capable of doing certain jobs than others. It's a mistake to confuse two different things; these are what round per se is more powerful and what round may be best for some shooters. Two different things.
tipoc
chieftain
Member
Well if you truly believe this to be true, we should all be shooting 357SIG's or 10mm actuals. NOT, 40 Short & Weak, or as well said earlier, 10mm Kurtz.
Folks, it's about software, not hardware. Say it over and over again to yourself. It doesn't change, no matter what the ballistic tables say.
Actually there is nothing 'wrong' with the 40S&W. It is just another round to choose from. Don't try to rationalize why in your religion the 40 is "better" than one of the other fighting rounds. In REAL GUN FIGHTS the best 40 bullets stops BG's as well as the best 45acp and best 9mm bullets. PICK'EM! Many folks including pathologists confuse death with stopping. One is stopped when dead, it is what happens between the start of the fight and that stoppage, possibly even by death. Remember most handgun fights DO NOT END IN DEATH of anyone.
There is no practical solution. Stop fixating on caliber. Fixate on a reliable weapon, and choose the caliber it was designed in. It appears the S&W M&P is one of the few that were originally designed around the 40. Frankly one of the few that have been.
Much more important is to learn how to use what ever weapon you have to maximum effectiveness. Good tactics, ability to carry the fight to the enemy, violence of action, will win the majority of fights long before caliber will or could ever matter. This is about MINDSET, TRAINING, and ABILITY. not caliber.
Go figure.
Fred
BoilerUP
Member
chieftain
I have no religion about a preferred caliber...I really like the 40SW but my carry weapon is a Glock 19.
Proficiency and shot placement is FAR more important than bullet diameter, energy, or "stopping power".
I have no religion about a preferred caliber...I really like the 40SW but my carry weapon is a Glock 19.
Proficiency and shot placement is FAR more important than bullet diameter, energy, or "stopping power".
tinygnat219
Member
I think the .40 S&W has done amazingly well for a cartridge not even 20 years old.
It's taken the Police market by storm.
It has potency that allows for more power, but with a high capacity magazine.
I think it has a lot of adherents and it is as prevalent as the 9MM. Essentially, if one makes a 9MM pistol, one would be stupid not to make the .40S&W version.
It's taken the Police market by storm.
It has potency that allows for more power, but with a high capacity magazine.
I think it has a lot of adherents and it is as prevalent as the 9MM. Essentially, if one makes a 9MM pistol, one would be stupid not to make the .40S&W version.
moga
Member
40S&W is just a compromise round between the 45 and 9mm in power and bullet mass IMO. I prefer 45ACP but also find comfort in the larger mag capacity of 40. 40 Ammunition is also 20-25% cheaper on average than 45 in my locale. For those reasons, I carry guns on the 40 platform.
If it wasn't an issue of ammo economy then I would carry the 10mm. But that would be more costly with which to practice than 45ACP and thus a defeat of one of the purposes that led me to switch my EDC.
If it wasn't an issue of ammo economy then I would carry the 10mm. But that would be more costly with which to practice than 45ACP and thus a defeat of one of the purposes that led me to switch my EDC.
Somebody must like the .40, when I'm out brass ratting, I find more .40 cases than 9mm and .45 combined. Since I can't bear to throw them away or scrap them, I had to buy a Hi-Point .40 carbine to shoot them in. And that ugly little rifle is a flat-out HOOT to shoot in that caliber! My 11y.o. grandson didn't want to give it up on our last range trip, until the ammo ran out that is.
NonConformist
member
Its already one of the most common Pistol calibers in use in this nation! For only being around for a such a short time its done extremely well IMO.
Yeah its snappy, but i am a major 40 caliber fan though recently Ive gone back to .45
Yeah its snappy, but i am a major 40 caliber fan though recently Ive gone back to .45
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