Does Universal Background Checks = Tracking?

Does Universal Background Checks = Tracking?

  • yes

    Votes: 62 81.6%
  • no

    Votes: 14 18.4%

  • Total voters
    76
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As a person who completes private sales on occasion, I wouldn’t mind having a system where private citizens could have access to the NICS database. The details of how that could be done while maintaining privacy would need to be worked out, of course, but they aren’t insurmountable. A voluntary system...
Under recent legislation in Virginia, the State Police have tables at all the major gun shows, where private sellers can get background checks of their buyers (without going through an FFL). This system is entirely voluntary. It's unclear how many people are using it. I see the State Police representatives looking rather lonely sitting at their tables.
 
I find it a little depressing that everyone feels it’s acceptabl that they should have to be able to prove their gun was legally purchased. The system is backwards, the government should have to be the one that should have to prove that it’s not. Yes it would be hard for them to enforce but that’s the point.

Registration is coming man. I’m predicting it. Their legislation for Ubc will include all sales right into their database..no notebooks.
 
Registration is coming man. I’m predicting it. Their legislation for Ubc will include all sales right into their database..no notebooks.
Only if free men refuse to fight.

Enough defeatist talk. Remember, our Founding Fathers fought against great odds, and prevailed. Man up, fight the good fight, say NO!
 
The gun community should have done more to weed out the bad apples ourselves. The profit motive (greed) has led some of us to sell guns to people who obviously shouldn't have guns. When self-regulation fails, the government steps in.

Selling guns "off the books" can be justified in the sellers' minds by high-minded libertarian ideals. In reality, though, it's simple greed.

If we are honest with ourselves, we will admit that a lot of this, in fact, goes on. I've been around the gun world a long time, and I've seen it.
 
Years ago I read about a conceptual system for doing background checks in which all of the data that could make you a prohibited person would be tied to your driver's license number, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU WERE A GUN OWNER. Then, if you want to buy a gun, you present your DL, and an immediate computerized check would be run on that. Such a system could be set up so that it would not retain any data about who is a gun owner.

The data that makes you not a prohibited person is already on my DL. WSP knows by running my plates if I have a concealed weapons permit. I know because I asked a trooper one time and he confirmed it. I think that's also on my DL. In this state the DOL issues plates, DL's and CPL's. The state also runs the BC's for the purchase of a pistol. They register every pistol transferred in the state. We have a state wide UBC and it's illegal to transfer a firearm without a FFL....... period.

It's a relatively easy thing to tie data to a DL but first the issuing agency has to get the data in a timely manner. That would basically mean that someone would have to run the BC on you when they issued a DL and code the strip on your DL. The system already exists with Real ID. The only difference is they are looking for people who are not in the country legally before they issue a DL. The same thing could be done with prohibited persons but NICS isn't fast enough to run the check while someone waits. It wouldn't work real well if it took NICS a week to get back to the issuing agency, which is common.
 
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They go to the bound book for that.
Uh, I didn't pose a question, instead "who then produces the 4473" was a statement of action. It was a progressive sentence, the "who" is there to clarify the party performing the subsequent action. For the purpose of my point it makes no difference whether they use their "bound book" rifle through a stack of 4473's, or look it up in their computer database.
 
For some, perhaps, but the majority of people see no problem with selling their personal property to people they don't disapprove of and are NOT motivated by greed.

I never did when I could sell a firearm without a BC. I always ask the buyer to fill out a bill of sale form which included their name, DL#, firearm type/serial number, price, dated and signed by the buyer. I always checked their DL to make sure the info was correct. This had nothing to do with their background because I didn't really care. My theory was a person that's planning on using that firearm to commit a crime isn't going to give me that information to begin with. The gun had my name on it and when it showed up at a crime scene they would be looking for me. I wanted proof that I no longer owned the gun and it was sold to Elmer Fudd on this day.

Another problem with selling a gun in this state is the FFL collects sales tax on it. If I drop my gun off at the LGS for the FFL to sell on consignment he collects the sales tax. That makes the gun taxed again at every sale from here to eternity, even tho someone paid the tax on it when it was new. FTF isn't taxed but somebody still pays the FFL's transfer fee.

My biggest gripe about our UBC was the initiative was written by idiots and gun owners here actually voted for it. I'm sure a lot of them didn't even read it because it was about 18 pages of BS.
 
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The gun community should have done more to weed out the bad apples ourselves. The profit motive (greed) has led some of us to sell guns to people who obviously shouldn't have guns. When self-regulation fails, the government steps in.

That would mean not selling a firearm to someone you didn't know.

To me that's like not selling a used car to someone you didn't know.

I guess I'm guilty of both.:(
 
You also kind of contradicted yourself in the same statement. You just said that the 4473 doesn’t have specific info, which you are correct, but then you turn around and say in the same breath that by the atf’s Own admission that it can only be tracked to the original buyer. Well, if nothing is kept as far as records, whether 4473 or not, then how do they know who the first buyer was?
No, I didn't contradict myself at all. A NICS background check is not considered proof that a firearm was transferred. A person can fill out a 4473, gotten the OK, and then decided not to purchase a firearm (in their case they had planned a certain amount and were a few dollars short when tax was included). A 4473 inquiry only has the information contained in questions 1-10 (name, place and date of birth, height weight, etc.) and whether the proposed transfer is for a handgun, long gun, or other firearm.
As I stated, it's kinda hard to 'register' things without that rather vital information.

Now, compare that to someone's automobile registration which has not only the registrants vital statistics but has the registrants current address, along with the make, model, and color of the auto, plus its manufacturer's VIN, and you will begin to see why it's not registration.
 
Under recent legislation in Virginia, the State Police have tables at all the major gun shows, where private sellers can get background checks of their buyers (without going through an FFL). This system is entirely voluntary. It's unclear how many people are using it.
Not a bad idea. Available if you want to use it, but your choice.
 
That would mean not selling a firearm to someone you didn't know.
You can tell a lot by a person's appearance and demeanor. If someone looks and acts like a scuzzball, that should cause red flags to go up, and you shouldn't sell him the weapon. Subjective, I know, but "you know them when you see them." At the gun shows I go to, maybe 25% of the attendees fit that description, and they seem to have no problem buying guns from private sellers. Now, if the scuzzball really is OK (for example if he's an undercover cop), he would have no problem buying from a licensed dealer after a NICS check. (On the other hand, perfectly clean-cut individuals could be criminals.) Absent a system to objectively check a buyer's bona fides, it's wise for private sellers to err on the side of caution. A non-registration UBC system would make life easier for conscientious private sellers. What we want to avoid is the system you have there in Washington State. Leave the FFL's out of private sales.
 
What we want to avoid is the system you have there in Washington State. Leave the FFL's out of private sales.

I agree. This hasn't worked out real well for anyone. LE doesn't enforce it (actually it's unenforceable) and private sellers just ignore it. It's a really bad law.

Some people won't even pay $15 to dump their garbage at waste facility. They just dump it on the side of the road. Paying a FFL $30-$40 to transfer private property was a non starter. Anyone contemplating something like the WA UBC should seriously have a check up from the neck up.
 
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In our current situation, a background query could be very simple to do. If we were designing the system from scratch today, is there any logical reason that we would include Form 4473?
 
Did NFA '34 stop the criminal use of firearms?

Did the GCA '68 stop the criminal use of firearms?

Did NICS stop criminal use of firearms?

Will UBC stop the criminal use of firearms?

No, No, No, and No.

Be free men, refuse to have your rights infringed, and just say NO!
It's not the criminal use of firearms that anti-gun cultists want to end.

It's the NON-criminal use of guns.
 
Paying a FFL $30-$40 to transfer private property was a non starter. Anyone contemplating something like the WA UBC should seriously have a check up from the neck up.
Obviously the FFL's would profit from a UBC system that funnels all transactions through FFL's. They would collect transfer fees every time a gun changes hands. Do you think perhaps they are lobbying for it behind the scenes?
 
Obviously the FFL's would profit from a UBC system that funnels all transactions through FFL's. They would collect transfer fees every time a gun changes hands. Do you think perhaps they are lobbying for it behind the scenes?

I don't think they had a chance to lobby this one. It was on ballot as an initiative (I-594) about 3 years ago. Never went thru the legislature. Because WA is a blue state they had enough people sign the petition. Then some billionaires ( Gates, Allen etc.) donated 10 million dollars to get it passed. It certainly was a windfall for the FFL's and the state. It tripled the number of transfers for FFL's. They might have contributed to the org that it put into play though.

That's the sort of thing that can happen with initiatives. They can take on a life of their own. I think NV got a UBS the same way. They were saved by the way it was written though. It called for the fed to run the checks and the fed refused because NV is a POC state. NV governor just said too bad that the fed wouldn't run the checks and continued business as usual.

That's what I mean when I say the idiots that write these things can't even figure out the simplest thing like who actually runs the checks.
 
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In our current situation, a background query could be very simple to do. If we were designing the system from scratch today, is there any logical reason that we would include Form 4473?
No, there isn't. The Form 4473 was instituted after the GCA of 1968. At that time, there was no way to quickly verify the truth of the statements made on the form. So buyers filled out the form more or less "on the honor system," with the proviso that they could be prosecuted later for lying. In the meantime, they could get their gun. The Brady checks (with a 5-day waiting period) came in in 1993, and the instant checks (NICS) weren't fully implemented until 1998.

Now that we have NICS, with a robust database, we don't need the paper form. Everything could be done electronically. The paper form lives on, I think, as a convenience for the dealers.
 
No, there isn't. The Form 4473 was instituted after the GCA of 1968. At that time, there was no way to quickly verify the truth of the statements made on the form. So buyers filled out the form more or less "on the honor system," with the proviso that they could be prosecuted later for lying. In the meantime, they could get their gun. The Brady checks (with a 5-day waiting period) came in in 1993, and the instant checks (NICS) weren't fully implemented until 1998.

Now that we have NICS, with a robust database, we don't need the paper form. Everything could be done electronically. The paper form lives on, I think, as a convenience for the dealers.

Some dealers like Cabelas don't use the paper form anymore. You put your info into a computer. I think something like a 4473 is generated for the FFL's records. Even with that sometimes the *outfitters* can't get the correct information in there and 7 people have to check it before they submit it to ATF.:confused: If they were in combat they would all be dead.
 
Alex,
Sorry if I missed it but have you done this research yet;

Alex,
Please go read the history of gun control in America and show us all instances were we got something in exchange for giving up our rights. I am not aware of a single instance but maybe you can find some.

Not picking, really, if you are so set on giving up please do the research. Maybe some will go along with you if you can show several historical references.
 
Obviously the FFL's would profit from a UBC system that funnels all transactions through FFL's. They would collect transfer fees every time a gun changes hands. Do you think perhaps they are lobbying for it behind the scenes?

I can understand why you would think that way living in a State that is becoming anti-gun. However the situation is much different in the Midwest and Southern states. There is a LGS not far from me that does transfers for only $10.00. I hardly consider that to be a money maker.
 
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