Does using a bench-rest = cheating????

[oldgold]

Technically a rifle is a piece of equipment that can put a shot in the same exact spot shot after shot.

it defiantly doesn't make you a good marksman or shot though.

Technically a rifle is a piece of equipment that can put a shot in the same exact spot shot after shot.

As told by people who have not competed in bench rest shooting. They have no idea how hard it is to get a rifle to stay under .20" for five shots. It is an art unto it's self.

I got into bench shooting about a year ago and am still learning. And ,yes, I've shot NRA rifle and pistol silhouette matches in the past and done very well. Bench rest shooting is much harder and way more involved.

 

[JohnBT]

I don't have anything new to add since the last discussion.

John

P.S. - Saw this the other day...




From http://arizonahuntingtoday.com/desertrat/2008/01/31/deer-is-on-the-outside-looking-in/

"Another cute photo sent to me by my mom. (Hi Mom!) Supposedly taken by Art Carr in Douglas,NB"

 

[JWarren]

MTMilitiaMan is SPOT ON.


Master of Arms wrote:

Yeah its called SPORT.

Sport doesn't fit into my hunting equation. I am not a sportsman. I am a hunter.

My goal in hunting is:

1. Take every animal I shoot as humanely and ethically as possible with minimal suffering.

2. Fill my Freezer.


For that reason, I have solid support in all of my field stands. I can "bench" the rifle as solid as I need to in order to make a good shot. I don't need to stand on one leg, lean back, hold up one hand, and chew bubble gum to feel that I made it challenging.

Usually, I just put down my book, raise the rifle, support it, take aim, get my breathing regular, aim, flip the safety, and fire.

Then I unload my rifle, collect my things, climb out, go get my jeep, back up to the deer, load it, and go clean and hang it.


If I am on a brush stand, I have to shoot unsupported. However, since those shots are about 30-40 yards, they aren't exactly a "challenge." Even so, I practice unsupported as well.


-- John

 

[Master of Arms]

Hunting IS a sport. If it wasn`t a sport then we could spotlight at night. We can`t do that because it`s unsportsman like. If it wasn`t a sport, we wouldn`t hunt the game, we would raise the game like cattle so we could hand pick the game that we chose to slaughter and fill our freezer. Just as most of the hunting shows on TV do.
If it wasn`t a Sport, why would we spend thousands of dollars to gain a few hundred dollars in meat??? Why is hunting called a sport in every part of the hunting industry??? It is a sport or at least it used to be a sport.

 

[Master of Arms]

Another thing which would make a good thread. Those TV shows such as whitetail freaks are another example of the rediculous. The raise the deer like cattle. They even name the deer for goodness sakes. The have the entire parimeter covered with cameras so they know every move of every deer on the property. They can tell you to be in this certain stand at 6:47:34 a.m. for ol Big Tine R E D I C U L O U S

 

[dmazur]

Sporting vs. prohibited

Washington State currently prohibits using laser sights that project a dot on the target for hunting. This would be clearly unsportsmanlike as it's illegal.

However, a remember a thread about an Idaho hunter who ran afoul of a slight change in wording. Idaho didn't have the "project a dot" language, so internally illuminated sights were prohibited equipment.

I believe this has since been corrected.

Some states consider crossbows to be an unfair advantage, unless you're handicapped.

Many hunters have introduced the idea of "fair chase" hunts, preferring these to "behind the fence" hunts.

Other hunters will hunt only with a muzzleloader, as they don't consider modern rifles enough of a challenge.

What's the point of all this? The simplest definition is "It's sport if it's an approved hunting method, in season and with the proper license & tag."

A more complex definition might include "...and I feel properly challenged."

Back to the idea of using a rest, I believe it's a good idea. Less chance of a wounded animal, which is unethical if you believed it likely to occur and took the shot anyway.

For the folks who insist on shooting offhand, I'd suggest they make sure their skills are up to it before abandoning even improvised rests.

 

[lionking]

Quote esmith;"I agree to a certain point. I wouldn't call it cheating but there is most certainly a higher level of skill in shooters that shoot with just a front sandbag and the gun shouldered, and even more with people who use nothing at all."


I have only ever used a front rest and then shouldered it,I thought that meant being "benched".

And the only time I do that is when I'm seeing the rifles accuracy not my skills.

Other than that after I know how accurate a rifle is and sighted in I do either standing sitting or prone with no rest.


So I guess I was mixed up about what being benched ment,I thought benched ment a rest and sitting at a table,not having it in a vice type holder.

 

[Sitting Duck]

It sounds like some hunters stand more of a chance of being wounded than the animals they hunt, while lugging their cutting edge gear around.

Use whatever it takes to to make a humane kill. I won't laugh at you.

Snicker, maybe.

 

[Master of Arms]

LOL Duck LOL

 

[dmazur]

So I guess I was mixed up about what being benched ment,I thought benched ment a rest and sitting at a table,not having it in a vice type holder.

That's my interpretation, too. I think the benchrest competition folks have their definitions, but you generally don't see that much gear in the field. (Kind of silly to have a vise propped up on a stump -- you have to have the concrete table, too. )

"Comfortable" field-portable tables used in conjunction with rests are becoming more common with the PD shooters. Some even have umbrellas to provide shade. (!)

Of course, shooting PD's isn't shooting the King's Deer. Maybe using a portable table and front rest is where some would start to think "cheating", even if it's not illegal.

I wouldn't. Whether it's the handrail on a blind, a knock-down table, or a stump, it's some kind of rest. A rifleman will be able to adapt to all of them.

Besides, just because you've rigged a nice rest doesn't mean the wind has stopped blowing.

(Off this thread, but related: Many hunters won't use laser rangefinders as they consider that making it too easy. They might use it to range after the shot, so they can learn to estimate better.)

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

The next thing you know we`ll be using remote controlled robotic decoys to take our shots as we sit comfortably in our nice, warm trucks.

Sadly, that already exists. The difference is that instead of sitting in ones truck, one can do from one's computer, over the internet. No, I'm not joking. :banghead:

I think benchrests are fine for the range and for shooting prairie dogs/vermin. I'm thinking that's just about it, though.

 

[Master of Arms]

Yeah they`re fine on the range but the ability of the human that`s using them is what`s in question. People should learn to use their firearms with the least amount of accessories possible. That`s the art of shooting. And as I`ve stated already, we`re taking away any chance at all from our game which takes away the sport. So we could just start raising deer like cattle.

I love using open sights, and I`ve found that it seems to be even easier to use an open or peep sight. The NRA sponsers an open/peep sight match at the range of which I`m a member every other Saturday. Sadly, I don`t have the appropriate firearm to compete but I`m working on it.

 

[dmazur]

Garand?

 

[sacp81170a]

People should learn to use their firearms with the least amount of accessories possible.

Ah, there's where you cross that line, telling others what they "should" do. Would "accessories" include scopes? slings? shooting jackets? shooting gloves? Maybe we should tell Olympic shooters that they shouldn't use those silly jackets and gloves? If they were "really" skilled, they wouldn't need them, right?

That`s the art of shooting.

"That's one of the many different aspects of the art of shooting." -- There, fixed it for ya.

That`s the art of shooting. And as I`ve stated already, we`re taking away any chance at all from our game which takes away the sport.

The "art" of hunting has, in the past, included running herds of buffalo over a cliff. Not very sporting, but when you depend on those animals to feed you for the winter, it kinda makes "sport" take a back seat. Ask any subsistence hunter what he thinks of sport. As far as us 21st century couch potatoes, any hunting we do is certainly for something besides staying alive. Pretend all you want, but I personally would refrain from telling others that my method is more "pure" than theirs.

If you think about it, shooting is a very tiny portion of the art of hunting. The true art is to get close enough to an elusive game animal to make a clean kill, whether it's with a bow and arrow or a high powered, scoped rifle. Even if you don't get to shoot, you gain a lot from the experience. The shot itself is not the beginning of the experience, neither is it the end.

 

[scythefwd]

To those who say you can't do a 1/4 moa group without a rest... what makes you think that. 1/4 inch is moa at 25y, and I at one time could overlap my holes at that distance without a rest, just a sling and prone position with aperature sights using a .22lr (I think I was closer to 1/2 moa, but the .22lr thunderbolts aren't exactly match quality). Accuracy isn't given up when you refuse to use the rest, but it takes more skill to get it and that is the point of not using a rest. If one is capable of 1/2 - 1/4 moa shots from the prone, they should be able to repeat that performance exactly with a bench (with little adjustment needed) but a person who shoots 1/4 moa from the bench (not support but an actual anchor or lead sled where the gun cannot move) might not even be able of moa shots without it (but they may be able to). I don't see anything wrong with using a bench while hunting (won't catch me doing it even though I don't stalk because it's only 5 acres and I can see most of it) if you can get away with it. To me, hunting is about putting food in the freezer, and I'll use what it takes to do it be it my garand or my .30-30 or my 12ga with buckshot or slugs (I don't think buckshot is humane but slugs are)

 

[Sitting Duck]

sacp81170a wrote "If you think about it, shooting is a very tiny portion of the art of hunting. The true art is to get close enough to an elusive game animal to make a clean kill, whether it's with a bow and arrow or a high powered, scoped rifle. Even if you don't get to shoot, you gain a lot from the experience. The shot itself is not the beginning of the experience, neither is it the end.

That is pretty profound. I like it!

 

[cpttango30]

I am a varmint hunters never been deer hunting in my life. So 99.9% of my varmint hunting is done off of a rest of some sort. Weather it is the hood of the truck roof of the truck prone what ever all shots are supported.

Like they say in the Army "Train as you Fight" I grew up shooting ground squirrels in Northern California Where we would set up 200 yards or so off of a brush pile or a town (Grouping of Holes in a bank) We would get out portable (75#) bench out and the steel tractor seat get out the 80# of sand bags and 20# rifles we set up and wait. We talk drink water and wait. When a squirrel would shot his face I would then procede to wipe it off the face of the earth.

Now if you want to shoot off handed fine by me I don't shoot off handed while at the range or in the field so why do I need to shoot off hand.

 

[MythBuster]

You can be a bench shooter or a rifleman. I am a rifleman.

I gave up bench shooting a long time ago.

 

[R.W.Dale]

You can be a bench shooter or a rifleman.

BS. You can be one, both or any other number of other things you apply yourself to just like you can also be an archer, handgunner, shotgunner or shade tree mechanic. Doing one doesn't rule out the ability to take part in the others.

I think this thread's title should be changed to. Holier than thou Fudd self pat on the back fest 08

 

[MythBuster]

All you guys who assume one has to have a bench and a scope to shoot well needs to attend a NRA Highpower match and a smallbore Dewer match.

The 10 ring on the 100 yard smallbore target is about 1 1/4 inch and the X ring is about 3/4 inch.

The good shooters will hold the 10 ring and the matches are won by the number of X counts.

I seen one guy shoot a 400 38X.

The 10 ring on the 600 yard highpower target is 12 inches and the X ring is 6 inches. The good shooters can clean a 600 yards target.

You don't learn to shoot like that by sitting on your lazy butt on a bench.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The good shooters will hold the 10 ring and the matches are won by the number of X counts.

But they cheat using body suits, target sights and match triggers. Real men shoot 1/2 MOA with a brown bess musket. anything else is an unfair advantage

 

[Master of Arms]

Pure??? Of course the more challenging that you make your hunt, the more "pure" that it would be.
Why do people have to twist words? I didn`t intend on telling anyone that what they should or shouldn`t do.
The statement was made on the subject at hand, not to step on toes. Since it sounded so bad to you let me rephrase.
To get closer to the true art of hunting, one should minimize the amount of accessories used while hunting.
This may not be for everyone but if a person is searching for the purity of hunting then this is a great way to start. How`s that??

Again, I love hunting with a bow although my experience is lacking. I also am inquiring on spear hunting. Even though I`ve actually tried hunting with a spear at an early age, I`m also not an expert.
I have squirrel hunted with a blowgun and actually got one.

I guess that I am bias on this matter and this is why I started this thread. As I have read each and every one of the statements made here, I would guess at a percentage of 70-30 in favor of my opinion.
It really doesn`t matter to me what any one person does but I do consider the guys and girls that try to make their hunting as "pure" as possible more sportsmen and women than those who choose to utilize such devices as discussed on this thread. I would also go as far as to say that they are also probably happier, and have a reason to be prouder when they to achieve their goals.

I love hunting and fishing and as long as I`m physically able I will be working hard at both. I should also say that I really enjoy THR because I`ve not found the knowledge found here on any other forum. What a great country we all live in. A country where everyone has their own opinion and can share it with others as well as respect others opinions. This is how we obtain wisdom and create character. Thanks guys for all of your thoughts on the matter .

Keep our hunting and fishing alive by keeping it clean and respectable.

 

[JWarren]

Master of Arms wrote:

Hunting IS a sport.

That is a question of perception.

If it wasn`t a sport, we wouldn`t hunt the game, we would raise the game like cattle so we could hand pick the game that we chose to slaughter and fill our freezer.

There ARE places where this occurs. I suspect that supply and demand/economic factors limit this industry.

If it wasn`t a Sport, why would we spend thousands of dollars to gain a few hundred dollars in meat???

Wrong. An initial investment can yield FAR more meat than you can get for the same dollars at a meat market.

For instance...

I hunted most of my life with a 1964 Remington 700 ADL 30-06. It had a Redfield 4X optic on it. That firearm paid for itself dozens of times over.

A guy can get a decent Savage 30-06 and mid-price optic (if they needed an optic) for under $600. Or a guy could go to a pawn shop and get a functional set-up for practically nothing.

If he kills a few deer that season, likely he has paid for his gear.


And let's not forget that if you want venision, hunting is likely the only way you are getting it in many places. I prefer it to beef, and I've eaten more venison than I have beef in my life.


So. Hunting isn't necessarily a sport for everyone. To me, it is a full freezer of the meat *I* prefer to eat, and it is about my heritage. It is a part of my self-sufficiency.

Why is hunting called a sport in every part of the hunting industry??? It is a sport or at least it used to be a sport.

Who really gives a crap? I suspect that hunting IS a sport for most people. However, your logic is flawed. It lacks validity.

For instance...

Because many consider hunting a sport for them, it does not create the condition that it is a sport for everyone.

Most people have consentual sex. Because this is the majority condition, it does not create the uniform classification that ALL sex is consentual. It does not make rape consentual intercourse.

There are both internal and external factors that determine the "sporting aspect" of hunting.

It isn't for you or me to define for everyone.


-- John

 

[plinky]

krokus said:

I think this thread's title should be changed to. Holier than thou Fudd self pat on the back fest 08

Yes, unfortunately the real agenda of this thread seems to have been to slam those who do the majority of their shooting from a bench. There have been charges that benchrest quality shooting requires no skill. There have been claims of Olympic quality shooting without all that silly gear that Olympic shooters use. All I can say is that the posters missed their calling. They should have been target shooters.

But some of the things they've posted (Rifles bolted to the bench for instance) indicate that they are talking about something they don't understand.

Look up a Jerry Miculek video on Youtube. About half of the comments will say that it's all in the gun, weak ammo, light trigger etc. They will tell you that they could do the same thing but they have something else to do right now.

I should have recognized this thread as the same sort of thing. Lesson learned.

In parting, I'll say that benchrest shooters, even those who don't practice field positions, know their sights, trigger and every other aspect of the rifle/ammo combo as well as the most seasoned woodsman. That's what it takes to shoot well from the bench. When it comes to putting a bullet in a deer's vitals, most of them would adopt the best position possible and do it.

If the OP is talking about someone who is a poor shot at the bench, well yeah, he'll probably suck from any position.

 

[rondog]

And then there's the AFTER hunting action.....my Dad in the center, circa 1961.