Don't draw on a drawn gun... well, this guy did and won.

[jlbraun]

Damn. Draw on a drawn gun being held against someone else's back, and take the other guy down without his hostage being injured? Them's some good shooting.

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-17/11605491076210.xml&coll=1

---

New Orleans, Louisiana

From the New Orleans Times-Picayune of October 11, 2006

Man dies in shooting in Faubourg Marigny

An unidentified man was shot dead Tuesday night while allegedly trying to rob a woman in Faubourg Marigny, New Orleans police said.

Police said the woman, 27, and a male companion, 28, were walking about 8:45 p.m. in the 2200 block of North Rampart Street when another man held a handgun against the woman's back and demanded money, said Garry Flot, a police public information officer.

Her companion, who has a concealed weapon permit, pulled his own handgun and shot the gunman several times, police said.

The gunman, who had no identification on him, died at the scene, between Elysian Fields Avenue and Marigny Street.

The case is under investigation, but no charges were filed Tuesday night.

 

[sturmruger]

Wow that guy has a lot of courage.

I bet he was able to draw his gun without the bg seeing. It sounds like he might have been able to use the body of his girlfriend to block his gun from view.

 

[cmidkiff]

Two innocent's unharmed... armed robber out of business permanently.

Can't ask for a better result than that!

 

[Zundfolge]

Action is always faster than reaction.

There's a fine line between action and reaction when drawing on a drawn gun ... most people don't expect someone they are pointing a gun at to draw their own, so that surprise can often be used in one's favor.

One must also weigh the alternative ... if you don't draw on that drawn gun you may die anyway (I'm of the school of thought that says better to die trying than crying).

I read somewhere that any resistance by mugging victims can throw off a mugger as they figure they have a 99% chance of no resistance.

Still ... I'd rather this one stay in the realm of the hypothetical ... I don't want to stare down a gun again to test the theory

 

[Crawlin]

Well, I can talk a big game but I think I would have done the same. His OODA loop has to have time to catch up to the actions you are making.

 

[Texas9]

Shameless plug

At least it's for someone else's blog.

Zundfolge's post brought to the front of my memory a recent blog post I read dealing with the criminal's most likely cause for success: the absence of resistance.

I recommend that everyone take a little point-and-click trip over the LawDog's blog ( www.thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com ) and read the posts titled "Meditations on the Combat Mindset." I'm pretty sure there are two (maybe more), and he sums up more than I could hope to offer here.

For those of you who know him or read his blog, you already know. For those who don't, read it. Often. He's a badge, and he's forgotten more about law enforcement and personal protection than some of us (myself included) may ever know.

c

 

[buzz_knox]

You never stick a weapon in someone's back for this very reason. They know where the weapon is and where to turn to get away from it, and you will end up reacting to their movement, thereby giving them two edges to use against you. It's a scary thing to decide to do, but once you start it, you can get off the muzzle and drive the guy back enough to draw and fire.

Not something I'd necessarily recommend trying myself. But, it's possible.

As for beating a drawn gun, more than a few cops have been killed because of this very thing. Action always beats reaction, and you can't necessarily recognize the threat in time, let alone shoot to stop it.

 

[buzz_knox]

For those who don't, read it. Often. He's a badge, and he's forgotten more about law enforcement and personal protection than some of us (myself included) may ever know.

I doubt anyone who's been on this forum more than a week doesn't know LawDog.

 

[Tim Burke]

Yeah, but I thought he just did comedy.

As for drawing on a drawn gun...
Strong work by the companion. I've done it and seen it done in FoF exercises. I've also seen it screwed up.

 

[FXR]

Draw on a drawn gun...

well, if you already have a gun pointed at you, you've already lost the first phase of the fight.

I'd hate for them to find my body with my unfired gun in my holster. Good work by the guy; hope he gets a nice homecooked meal from his girlfriend, and I can only hope I'd respond as well under similar circumstances. His story should be told around campfires everywhere.

--FXR

 

[ETXhiker]

Well, all's well that ends well. I'd like to think he did the right thing, because the good guys won. But when he drew, the gun was in his girlfriends back, not his. Sounds like it was a risk he was willing to take. Hmmm.

 

[justatexasboy]

Action is always faster than reaction


No truer words have ever been said.

 

[Hanzo581]

Glad the good guys came out on top, but I am a little concerned about the guy risking the life of the woman that had the gun in her back, what if he didn't fire before the bad guy did, she could have been killed. Of course I dont know the whole store maybe she was clear before the guy drew his pistol

 

[psychophipps]

As my sensei says, "He who hesitates, meditates...while flat on their backs."

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[B yond]

I am a little concerned about the guy risking the life of the woman that had the gun in her back

+1

While I don't know the whole story, on the surface it sounds like she would have been the one at risk.

 

[migoi]

Without knowing the exact...

positions of all the players it is difficult to determine the exact risk the guy was taking in his draw. It could be that the positions of the people involved allowed the good guy to shield his draw from the nimrod until he was clear and coming up on target.

Somewhere out on the internet is a video of a CCW involved shooting in a hotel lobby. A nimrod comes in and demands cash from the drawer. Two clerks respond as if to get the cash out of the drawer. The male clerk is using his seeming cooperation to distract the nimrod and positions himself so that he is able to complete his draw then sidesteps as he comes up on target... good shoot.

I believe the good guy even posted on here to clear up some details about the relative position of another woman and her child. The video angle of view gave an incorrect perception of the lateral seperation of everyone making it look like the shots occurred closer to the woman and her child than was actual.

I would think the same thing could have been possible in this situation. Make sounds and movements indicating you are fully cooperating and scared beyond all thought of resistance. Use a bit of misdirection while getting clear of your holster, ping the nimrod's OODA loop at the opportune time, and you have a nimrod filled sight picture and are halfway through your trigger press before he realizes his career choice was a poor one.

as always...just one man's opinion

migoi

 

[TXGunGeek]

Drawing against a drawn gun

As someone who has been shot in just such a scenario (FoF training as DBG) I can tell you that misdirection, distraction and timing can allow you to shoot an assailant that has their gun drawn when yours is in a holster or otherwise concealed. You may or may not get shot yourself in the process but it is far from un-winable. Greg Hamilton (http://www.insightstraining.com/) demonstrates this quite clearly in street and vehicle tactics classes.

It realy is all about turning the bad guys OODA loop into Oh-Duh. There is more invloved than just drawing your gun quickly and shooting.

 

[romma]

Guess right, you win, guess wrong, you lose. What I want to know is where is the standard police-spokesperson quote with regards to; "the intended victim was lucky this time but we don't recommend this vigilante behavour" __________ insert said spokespersons name here...

 

[strambo]

well, if you already have a gun pointed at you, you've already lost the first phase of the fight.

If your walking around that area of NO at night...you've already lost the 1st phase (avoidance). That's close to, if not the lower 9th Ward. Not a nice place. It was very safe during Katrina when I was there...because the bad guys were in Houston and our NG infantry battalion was there. Now? No thanks.

 

[Eyesac]

That warms my heart *tear*

 

[shooter503]

Take your pick. If you are going to play in some of the bad parts of town at night (or some places anytime!) you may have to draw against someone you suspect, at least, has his hand on a concealed weapon pointing at you. If you are really lucky you may have got yourself surrounded by baddies.

Choices? You could try guessing what is going to happen to you if you give in. Then you decide if you are going to give in or fight. If you give in they are certainly going to get your firearm and they may even use it against you. If you fight, unless you are really good, the odds are stacked against you. Remember how fast you were on the draw that summer day at the range - did you practice wearing that zipped up windbreaker you are wearing now?

There should be a whole training course covering how to draw in a compromised situation. I do not know whether one is available. It seems to me that this is the most likely problem situation that will be met CCW. At least practice drawing in the clothes you are likely to be wearing if this should happen to you. If you can find a like minded individual for some role playing, with a definately empty gun, then that may be better. Then you can practice deception ideas also.

Edit.

The basic difference, in theory at least, between LEO and CCW is in the equipment and the rules. Generally the LEO will carry his firearm in an issue, externally carried, holster. This holster will be easily accessable and will probably stand-off from the body somewhat to help in the draw (although the holster will probably have some sort of "anti-snatch" mechanism). A CCW holster will be hidden under clothing and, because of the low-profile required to aid concealment, it will not be optimised for a fast draw (however, there is no requirement for a CCW holster to have a retention strap or "anti-snatch" device). Generally the rules will allow a LEO to draw in preparation for meeting a threat. If you are CCW you have to consider the results of drawing until the action is fully justified (as would be decided by a judge).

The result of these considerations is that a LEO has the advantage over CCW. First, his equipment probably permits a slightly quicker draw than a concealed holster and second, if a problem is forseen, a LEO can probably justify drawing in anticipation of the problem. Most range training is based on traditional LEO or military training. I think these training schedules do not put sufficient emphasis on the "drawing" phase which is much more important to civilians than LEOs.

 

[thumper723]

What is OODA? I'm thinking it has something to do with him detecting, analyzing and reacting, but I would rather know for sure.

 

[esheato]

The gunman, who had no identification on him, died at the scene, between Elysian Fields Avenue and Marigny Street.

Did anyone else catch this little pun?

Elysium: In Greek mythology, the abode of the blessed, paradise. Situated at the end of the world it is here that those chosen by the gods are sent to.

Ed

 

[10-Ring]

WOW...must have been some serious deer in the headlights going on and a serious set of cajones

 

[CornCod]

The man made the right decision because it worked out well. This incident brings to mind the famous "Onion Field" incident that took place, I believe, in the fifties or sixties. I remember back in the eighties they would often refer to that incident in training to get probation officers into the mindset of not giving up, even when things looked bad. Just because a man has a gun on you dosen't mean you just lay down and die. Its time to use the gray matter God gave you!

The thing to remember about crooks is that most of them know next to nothing about firearms and their use. They get their pointers off the movies, which in a sense is an advantage for crime victims. In the primitive, low-IQ world of the typical criminal, the firearm is an artifact of power, a symbol and not something that needs learning to use. Anyone who lives in a bad neighborhood (like me!) hears those muffled shots in the night and realizes that there is a 99.99% chance that the gangbanging idiot, holding the pistol sideways like his hero Samuel L. Jackson, just missed again!