Double ended wadcutter load opinions

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ColdSpring

ColdSpring

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Posted this on the revolver forum in a thread about my new to me S&W 27-2. Kind of a side discussion, thought it would get more traction here.

Think I got a winner for the tartet/plinking load role.

Shot 10 each:
- 148 grain DEWC with 3.2, 3.5, 3.8 grains HP-38
- 158 grain RNRP with 3.8, 4.1 grains HP-38

All shots from 25 yards.

Felt weird, first time shooting any kind of handgun from any kind of rest. Setup shown below. Not exactly a Ransom, but it felt pretty solid to me. Solid enough to think it had little or no negative influence on the results.

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Won't bore you with the 158 grain RNFP report; both groups were bigger than anything with the DEWC.

Here are the three wadcutter loads:

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3.8 grain load almost held 10 ring... one juuust a bit outside. Adjusted to coincide POA & POI of course. Will do that, & get chronograph numbers, with the next batch. Can't say whether this is great, good, or fair-to-middlin'- no frame of reference. Do know it's a lot better than I can do on my hind legs.

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Trended better from low to high charge weights. What say ye wise men & women, continue testing up the ladder, maybe 4.0 & 4.2 grains? Know the best answer is "try it & see", & probably will... but like to know when I'm chasing my tail, that way there's no disappointment when I can't catch it.
Truth is, as much as I like the square notch rear & front Patridge style sights on the gun, with handgun length sight radius not sure my eyes are capable of holding any more repeatable precision that what shows here.

Know that HBWC are the gold standard, and may try them eventually. Working with what I got for now.
 
Well, I don't know if I qualify as a 'wise' one (although among the things of which I have been accused is being a wise ass...) but I think you're doing fine. Looks like good shooting to me.

I know that if I saw that progression, you would be hard put to stop me from going on up the scale until the groups widened back out.

That M27 looks to be a fine piece of machinery !
 
Nice shooting and nice model 27! I'd extend that ladder you're working on till it starts to expand a bit.
My most accurate 357 "target" load is 3.7gr of Trailboss (yep, Trailboss) under a 158gr SWC.
The most accurate load I make is a 147gr button nose wadcutter over 3.1gr of Bullseye in a 38sp case.

I have posted this before,
147gr at 25yds on the left.
IMG_3343.jpg
 
4.0gr is max according to hodgdon with a 148gr hbwc.

I had one of those 1 book 1 cartridge manuals and found a load that was higher than hodgdons load and i worked up to it. 4.2gr had mildly sticky extraction. 4.4 gr was a no go as i ha to really pount the extractor to get the brass out.

Settled on 4.0 gr of hp38 with a 148gr zero dead and it works for me. 872 fps avg from a 2 inch colt cobra, and 879 fps avg from a 4 inch gp100.
 
I’m kind of fond of Bullseye in the 3.1-3.3gr range for DEWCs. 2.8-3.2 for HBWCs. Then again, I’m neither wise nor a crack shot so take that with a grain of salt.
 
I've shot countless 1000's of h&g #50 wc's in a s&w 586, ran 6-cavity and 10-cavity molds making mountains of bullets for genera range play/blammo ammo.

Something to think about:
The throats in the 357's are near the end of the cylinder holes. Those throats have leads & 38spl's have to jump further then the same bullet loaded in a 357 case. This jump not only looses velocity (+/- 10fps), the freebore/unsupported bullet has an affect on accuracy. A picture of a cylinder with the top bullet seated to the recommended oal and the bottom bullet seated longer so it sits/aligns itself better in the leade of the throat in the cylinder hole.
Lcmp4hk.jpg

Testing target loads in a s&w 624. The 220gr hbwc's are seated flush, crimped in the 1st lube groove, crimped in the 2nd lube grove along with different types of lube, 1 vs both lube grooves lubed, etc.
VorIu2C.jpg

Testing loads in a s&w 686 (357mag) using 38spl cases. The bullets were the h&g #50 seated long and a Mihec 640 series 158gr fn bullet that has 2 crimp grooves. The bullets were seated in the bottom crimp groove in the 38spl cases pushing the bullets shoulder/nose further out into the leade of the cylinder.
Daxlniz.jpg

The test targets used that day testing those loads pictured above. They are only 6-shot groups @ 50ft. Nothing hand picked/cherry picked, simply what that 686 did that day testing loads.
vrmI4za.jpg

The top row 2nd from the left bullet (green) is that 158gr fn hp mihec 640. The bottom row center bullet is an old bullet design, the cramer hunter 158gr fn hp bullet. Bottom row far right is another cramer bullet, the #26 158gr keith style swc hp.
0A0Ga7O.jpg

A couple weeks ago I decided to do a little testing with bullseye and 357 cases using those bullets looking for plinking loads. I chose 5.5gr and 6.0gr for loads. Put a burris 7x target dot scope on the 686 and hit the range. These targets are messy, wasn't trying to run testing to put on any website. Was simply testing loads for myself looking for blammo ammo in the 357 cases for that 686. I put up targets that had 2 bullseyes on them and shot 1 target per bullet, the 5.5gr test load on the left, 6.0gr load on the right @ 25yds. These are those 3 test targets, 6-shot groups @ 25yds.
9YSO2RC.jpg

If you look closely you can see the top left target (cramer #26) is overlapping the left side of the 640 target (top right). You can see the complete lower cramer hunter bullet's target. I clumped the target together to take a picture of the 1 1/4" or less groups from each of the 3 bullets.

I tested the hunter and 640 bullet at 50yds. The hunter on the top 2 targets/640 on the bottom 2 targets. 5.5gr loads on the left targets for both bullets, 6.0gr loads on the right targets for both bullets.
CfpwHXk.jpg

Anyway, get the bullets body/shoulder out into the leade of the cylinders and it does wonders for accuracy.
 
ColdSpring said:
Think I got a winner for the tartet/plinking load role.

Shot 10 each:
- 148 grain DEWC with 3.2, 3.5, 3.8 grains HP-38
- 158 grain RNRP with 3.8, 4.1 grains HP-38

All shots from 25 yards.
Click to expand...

My favorite .38 Special loads are:

In a .38 Special case using a CCI-500 primer
3.2gr HP-38/W231 under a 148gr HBWC bullet
3.4gr HP-38/W231 under a 148gr DEWC bullet
4.0gr HP-38/W231 under a 158gr LRN bullet

Remember, when posting numbers mistakes can and will happen. Be sure to verify all loads you see on the NET for yourself. Don't blame me or this forum for mistakes.
 
Nice looking front bag in the first photo. Be careful when shooting a revolver over a nice bag like that. The blast from the cylinder/barrel gap cuts like a knife. One cylinder load off just a touch can cut a hole right through a bag like that. Don’t ask me how I know.
 
ColdSpring said:
Know that HBWC are the gold standard, and may try them eventually. Working with what I got for now.
Click to expand...

Just remember, yes, HBWC's are the gold standard for tight groups, but remember that they cannot be driven too fast. If driven too fast, you risk blowing off the skirt and obstructing the barrel. Follow the reloading data for HBWC carefully.

DEWC's can be driven faster due to the solid base. When driven faster, they may not provide acceptable accuracy, but they should exit the barrel without leaving any problems behind.

I've never tested the difference in accuracy between 38 caliber 158 SWC vs 148 DEWC at similar load levels. Might be an interesting thing to do.

I've generally loaded DEWC at similar levels as HBWC.
 
Appreciate all the feedback.

Shot again with 3.8, 4.0 & 4.2 grain loads. Not much difference between 3.8 & 4.0. 4.2 opened up a bit.

Seemed a little tight going into the crimping die, so did a little experiment. I'd been using a Redding profile crimp die up to this point. Loaded some more of the 3.8- half crimped with the Redding die, half with a Lee factory crimp die. Tried to keep the level of crimp applied the same for each die. Definitely felt smoother with the Lee die. Shot a couple cylinders of each from the rest at 25:

lDNgKXm.jpg

Can see a difference in some offhand groups from 25 as well (don't laugh!):

eXj85io.jpg

Interesting results, think I'll stick with the Lee die for this load.
 
ColdSpring said:
Appreciate all the feedback.

Shot again with 3.8, 4.0 & 4.2 grain loads. Not much difference between 3.8 & 4.0. 4.2 opened up a bit.

Seemed a little tight going into the crimping die, so did a little experiment. I'd been using a Redding profile crimp die up to this point. Loaded some more of the 3.8- half crimped with the Redding die, half with a Lee factory crimp die. Tried to keep the level of crimp applied the same for each die. Definitely felt smoother with the Lee die. Shot a couple cylinders of each from the rest at 25:

View attachment 1013928

Can see a difference in some offhand groups from 25 as well (don't laugh!):

View attachment 1013929

Interesting results, think I'll stick with the Lee die for this load.
Click to expand...
Very interesting results. Thanks for posting.
 
Couple notes I should have included last night:

- Cleaned out the Redding die to eliminate that possibility for the resistance
- No flies on the Redding die; in a similar experiment for a heavy load used in a rifle, it yielded better accuracy than the Lee.
 
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