Double rifles VS bolts

[BrocLuno]

Silver solder is good for something in excess of 20K psi and the long surface between the joining rib and the barrels makes for a joint you could not likely pull apart with two pick-up trucks. Even the biggest doubles in the cordite/nitro express calibers do not shoot their barrels apart. I think some are brazed too (?) and that would make for an even stronger joint

As for box locks not being strong, well let's see - shot guns and double rifles down to 6 bore (about an inch if I recall) seem to take the abuse just fine and have been doing so for over a century, so I guess it's not an issue of strength? As long as the chamber will hold the radial pressure, I'm sure the receiver will hold the linear thrust and back pressure. I think they have more locking surface than a couple of small bolt lugs fitting into a receiver ring that is only an 1/8th of an inch thick or so around the bolt lug channel? Ruger #1 is a modified box lock and they are chambered up to 458 Lott which is bigger and nastier than anything I would ever put up to my shoulder

Bottom line, I don't know about blowing up a box lock double? Not knocking your range friend, but I don't think those issues are really a big concern? I think it's more like cost and availability of gunsmiths who can actually do this work?

Jim. I understand your thoughts and that's why I have not pursued it. I am thinking about building a break action single shot on a CBC shotgun action as I love their under lever action. That should be relatively straight forward. Cylinder bore the barrel and insert a liner with chamber. I was thinking about a .22 Hornet into a 20GA That would be a first step. If it went well, I might try the same with a SxS

 

[oneounceload]

I think it's more like cost and availability of gunsmiths who can actually do this work?

THAT, I suspect, will prove to be the situation.

You might ask at doublegunshop.com if they have any leads on a smith for that work.

 

[Tom Held]

double rifles for sale

Here's a link to Galazan's site just for double rifles. Ranging in price from $4500 to $210,000.

http://www.csmcspecials.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=double+rifle&Search.x=12&Search.y=10

The Belgium Browning in 30:06 is a really good buy for a quality double rifle. But it would have been better in a dangerous game rifle (375 H and H ). That would have double the cost though.

Galazan made a beautiful little 22 side by side a couple of years ago in the $20,000 range. He also makes a nice 20 gauge rifled slug double gun.

I had the fortune, or misfortune, to shot a 500 Nitro double gun a few months ago. That did wake me up along with the $40 per round cost.

Tom

 

[joed]

I've been reading this thread and it is interesting. But I have to ask, what kind of person can afford the price of a double rifle, the ammo and an african trip?

Guess we all can dream but I'll stick to my varmint hunts.

Owning a rifle chambered in .300 H&H Mag I once visited the Holland and Holland website to look around. Absolutely amazing! But beyond my league.

 

[Tom Held]

Africa hunts

Joe, I understand. Owning one of these big game double rifles is like owning a boat. Best to know someone who has one. I took my first and probably only Africa hunt last year for plains game. The cost to hunt 10 days and take 8 quality animals (mountain zebra, impala, kudu, blesbok, gemsbok, klippspringer, red hartebeast, springbok) was about the same as booking a 5 day elk hunt in montana with a outfitter. I shot everything with a 300 weatherby using factory ammo. There's not a dangerous game animal in Africa that you can't kill with a 375 H and H and you can buy a CZ 375 for less than a grand.

Tom

 

[oneounceload]

But I have to ask, what kind of person can afford the price of a double rifle, the ammo and an african trip?

I know two such gents who have been over a dozen times each, including elephant hunts. An elephant hunt will run over $50,000 without other game animals. A multiple animal hunt without elephant is more affordable, according to my friends. The SCI convention in Reno in January is the place to start, as that is where the PH's come to book hunts from clients........

Excepting major dangerous game, anything from 338 through 375 to 416 will work just fine in a bolt action

 

[SteveW-II]

> I don't have any desire to hunt game in Africa, but would love to
> have one with all the craftsmanship in a 300WM. or even in a
> 45-70.

Have you considered a Ruger No.1 in 45-70 with the receiver engraved then deep blued, with a nice walnut stock ?

Very classic. Lovely to look at and it wont break the bank like a 'real' double..

If you wanted a African Game chambering, I am sure any competent gunsmith would rebarrel/chamber for you as part of the receiver engraving work.

There is a guy on Ebay that sells some really nice wood sets for Ruger No. 1's..

http://stores.ebay.com/Dakotacliffs-Stock-Shop?_rdc=1
Like this :
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ruger-Number-1-...767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58824d016f


If you wanted that classic English look, it might be a way to go.. It wont be cheap, but it wouldn't come near the cost of a London rifle. You might also be surprised at how quickly you can reload it.

S.

 

[dirtyjim]

The first was the weight. A double rifle weighs almost twice as much and carrying it sucks. The second thing (and this really surprised me) is that double rifles aren't as strong as bolt actions. From what he told me, although double rifles do exhibit high levels of workmanship, the big flaw is that the two barrels (the assembly, if you will) is not a solid machined (or otherwise manufactured) piece of steel, but literally two barrels that are silver soldered onto a center joining piece.

you buddy doesn't have clue about what he is talking about. while a searcy 700 nitro double does weigh 16 pounds most doubles are 9-12 pounds.
the 450/400NE rifles ive shot are generaly in the 9 pound range.
the 500 nitro rigby i shot weighed around 11 pounds and could have been made about a 1/2" pound lighter.

most doubles also use a threaded mono-block to attach the barrels they are not simply soldered together.

if you want a 22 hornet double bailey bradshaw builds them. i've seen them up close and they are are extremly nice, he's also building a fallingblock double in 6.5x57R right now too & i might just have to get me one of those.

 

[Jim Watson]

Cylinder bore the barrel and insert a liner with chamber. I was thinking about a .22 Hornet into a 20GA

Broc, that is why I was talking about balance. Just shoving a rifle liner down a shotgun barrel is going to give you something with more iron in it than a typical varmint rifle and is going to be heavy and awkward. Maybe a Hornet liner in a small .410. Better, learn how to monobloc it and put a good taper on the rifle barrel so it will swing.

A friend has a .450 BPE. We are talking a 270 - 300 grain bullet at 1700 fps, this is NOT an elephant gun. They shot "bore" guns for the really big game in those days. It weighs about 8.5 lbs and kicks a good deal. I can get off a pair and the first shot of a reload. By the fourth shot, I am flinching.

 

[dirtyjim]

the problem with installing liners is you end up with two bull barrels.

if you must build one on a shotgun action cut the barrels off the monoblock leaving only the barrel section above the mono-block intact. set the mono-block up on a mill and ream then thread whats left of the barrels. then thread your new barrel blanks into the newly threaded mono-block.
then you'll need to build the quarter rib, between the barrels rib and front sight base

 

[BrocLuno]

Well maybe

Actually, I thought I could get the guys at Teludynetech to "glue" the liner in with their magic bore goop. Ought to keep the weight down? But I understand your concerns and I agree they are valid. It's just a thought that has been running around in the back of my head

I'll more likely try it with a break action single shot first. Building one on a .410 is a good idea. I'll think that one over for a while. I really like the CBC single shot scatter guns and their elegant under lever. I've been waiting to acquire the pieces for a project like this as an experiment. I also thought about a barrel liner in an aluminum tube insert to make the difference in bore diameter without the weight. Lots of options and no firm decisions

 

[dfunde01]

There are exceptions to everything, so yes, it is possible to get a double rifle chambered in an intermediate cartridge or even in rimfire. I can't fault the OP for wanting one, as they are very unique. The original post didn't give much to go off of, hence my somewhat generic reply.

I have personally never seen a double rifle for sale that wasn't going for more than my car. I have seen several reasonably-priced drillings (I think that is the term--rifle barrel over and shotgun under), and Savage might even still make one.

I thought that a "drilling" had three barrels. SXS shotgun over a single rifle or SXS rifle over a shotgun.

 

[conhntr]

I would think 12lbs for a major caliber double would be a benfit. Heck my trap gun is 10.5# and it only shoots 1oz at 1050fps. I can not shoot a shotgun any lighter due to recoil. I think 15+ would be nice for a safari double


Btw i seem to remember beretta, and tikka (or someone) making over/under double guns from 7x57 up thru 375. A used one of these might be had at reasonable cost
http://www.gunsamerica.com/95648312...fles/Storm/Golden_sable_O_U_Express_Rifle.htm
There it is almost new for 5k...

 

[Robert Wilson]

To the best of my knowledge, the most affordable double rifles ("real" doubles, regulated properly with a single rear sight) right now are made by Sabatti and sold through Cabela's. They offer "light" rifles in .45-70 and 9.3x74r, as well as heavies in up to 500 Nitro. Prices range from $3500 to $5500, which is about the same price I've seen for the cheapest rifles built on shotgun actions.

One can also find double rifles that aren't really regulated. They typically use two rear sights; one for each barrel. They can be quite a bit less expensive, as regulation is one reason doubles are so expensive. I keep thinking about spending the high three figures required for a Pedersoli side-by-side muzzle loading 12 bore rifle, but the twin rear sights really turn me off...

 

[Pete D.]

I have a double rifle chambered for the .30-06 Springfield. It is an O/U, a Rizzini 90L Express.
There is nothing faster for two shots. You pull the trigger twice and the gun goes bang twice. No cycling, no bolt movement, no jamming. The first barrel on my gun fires right to POA; the second shot is usually about three inches higher. I believe that it is regulated for 180 grain bullets at 2700 fps. I have never pursued shooting the smallest possible set with the gun; indeed, I shoot it mostly from the standing position or some other field expedient pose.



Terminology: a drilling is a three barrel gun. Double rifles may be SXS or O/U. The Bockbuchsflinte is a shotgun/rifle O/U. The Buchsflinte is a SXS shotgun/rifle. And on and on...

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Cabela's sells affordable double rifles imported from Italy from Sabatti. The 45-70 goes for $3,000. The bigger thumper calibers go for 5,000 with nice engraving. Gun Tests magazine gave it an A-. More importantly, a friend of mine bought one in 45-70 for hog hunting. It weighs about 8 pounds and has many features on it similar to the expensive made ones. His came with fiber optic sights. He has about 50 rounds through it so far. I fired three rounds through it (two LeverEvolution and two classic lead loads). Recoil was brisk but no more than shooting a slug through a pump action shotgun. At the range I figure I'd shoot no more than 10 rounds at a session (my bolt action 30-06 I'm good for about 40 to 60 rounds a range session before its not longer fun). For hunting, I wouldn't even worry about the recoil. He also carries a 44 magnum as a back up.

Bottom line is that it is a fun rifle and appeared to be well built. At between three thousand and five thousand it is definately within reach of most shooters if they really want it.

That's my two cents on the topic. As for bolt action vs double, I think that two shot capacity is likely all you would get on an animal before it disappers. Yes, a double without a scope is a 50 to 100 yard gun but so are many shots.

If I owned a double, what I would likely do is rotate rifles I carry in the field on the week or so I go hunting. One day the bolt action, the next day the double, the day after the lever action. Then, repeat.

 

[S. Hill]

you buddy doesn't have clue about what he is talking about. while a searcy 700 nitro double does weigh 16 pounds most doubles are 9-12 pounds.
the 450/400NE rifles ive shot are generaly in the 9 pound range.
the 500 nitro rigby i shot weighed around 11 pounds and could have been made about a 1/2" pound lighter.

most doubles also use a threaded mono-block to attach the barrels they are not simply soldered together.

if you want a 22 hornet double bailey bradshaw builds them. i've seen them up close and they are are extremly nice, he's also building a fallingblock double in 6.5x57R right now too & i might just have to get me one of those.

Yes, the weight for a "normal" .470 Nitro Express double is right around 10 lbs. That compares to a safari-style bolt rifle in..... let's say .416 Rem. or .416 Rigby that would weigh right around 9 lbs.

Butch Searcy started out using Browning BSS actions to make his double rifles. It has been about 15 years since he switched over to manufacturing his proprietary action at his shop. His entry level rifle starts at $10,500.00. Yeah, you will wait for awhile to get yours. The link to his website is http://www.searcyent.com/main.htm

What nobody has mentioned is that the biggest advantage of the double rifle over the bolt gun is that you have 2 separate firing mechanisms. If one should malfunction, you always have a complete back-up gun just a trigger pull away. When you are facing something that has the ability to stomp or chomp you to death, that extra bit of insurance is very comforting. That is why you will see that all quality double rifles have double triggers. The right and left sides are independent, except for the safety.

Of course, the fast follow-up shot is nice, too.

 

[bonza]

I've posted photos of my double-rifle before but, due to the nature of this thread, here they are again! Mine is a German made rifle c.1895. Caliber is 12.3x62mmR (approx .48 caliber). Weight is a tad over six pounds. Designed for European game (Stag, Boar, etc.), so not a 'heavy' dangerous game rifle.




By the way, it is for sale! Comes with dies, cases, bullet mold, etc. PM if you're interested at all.

 

[Pete D.]

About smaller DRs - a few years ago, I had in my possession - for about a week - a little Holland and Son (before they became H&H) double chambered for the .360 No.5 Rook cartridge. It would chamber and fire .38 Specials, so I was told. Unfortunately, it was not a keeper. I took it to the H&H showroom in NYC and they were nice enough to examine the gun. Their advice was to return it - it was what I expected. The barrels were not tight to the breech, the fore end had been much abused and was cobbled with the wrong screws; the entire gun had been blackened - a poor attempt to refinish.
Despite that, it felt light and nice in my hands.
Pete

 

[Pete D.]

Caliber is 12.3x62mmR (approx .48 caliber).

Now you've got my attention - does the cartridge go by any other designation? I ask because, when I read it, I said "let me look that up. See what it's like."
I cannot find it anywhere. Three books on case forming (Howell, Donnelly, Nonte) Hoyem's History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition, and three volumes of Datig's "Cartridges for Collectors".
Nothing.
I don't doubt that you know what the gun shoots. I am surprised that I cannot find any info. Do you a picture of a case? Where did you get ammo/brass?

Pete

PS - It's a beautiful gun.

 

[CraigC]

Nice, I'd love to have a double chambered in a useless little rook rifle cartridge. Can't imagine anything being more fun for popping cottontails.

 

[788Ham]

Oneounce,

That rifle you posted is absolutely beautiful !! I sure didn't realize my asking the question I did would bring out this type of response! I'm glad I did though, guess there are others who have my same interests. I'll never be able to afford one of these weapons, but like women and cars I'll never be able to afford, sure nice to gawk at! LOL

 

[Pete D.]

best of both

The link to Galazan that Tom posted contained two references to Fuchs "bolt action Double rifles". I'd seen this video a while ago. If you haven't, here is the link. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0s21VAJdCM

Pete

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Ok that is just TOO DAMN COOL Nice post Pete!

 

[Offfhand]

Something that has been largely overlooked in this discussion are the simple pleasures of owning double rifles. As with any other form of art or high craftsmanship, one never tires of enjoying the exquisite workmanship of a finely made firearm, and no other venue of gunmaking excels that devoted to making premier grade double rifles. Attaching some photos of one of my rifles: a Westley Richards "drop-lock"which encompasses the quality features one might expect in a "best" British double. "Drop lock" referring to the easily detachable firing mechanisms, which are themselves works of art. As are the folding "express" sights, fitted case, etc. Hope you enjoy.