Double shot in rifles? Multiple Roundballs?

[Cosmoline]

I've run into discussion of loading multiple roundballs down a rifle barrel. I know about the "buck and ball" shotgun loads, but to try that with double roundballs seems exceedingly dangerous. Have you ever heard of this or seen it done?

 

[Voodoochile]

Not in a rifle, but in a revolver yes.

I remember years ago reading in one of the G&A magazines where some one was experimenting with a multi bullet load for a .38spl & I thought to try it so I took my 3rd. model Dragoon out loaded 20gr. FFFG & 2 .457 144gr. balls with a wad inbetween each ball "tight fit, almost didn't have enough room" & fired it.

Within resonable distance "20 yards" it seemed like a very formidable load, both balls hit within 1/4 inch from each other & I would suspect that they had enough punch to take out a man or something else if need be but that was maybe 10 years ago & I haven't tried it since.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I checked some of my .50 cal muzzleloader inventory. While I mostly shoot either 230 gr .45 bullets in .50 caliber sabots or .49 patched round ball, I do have some .50 bullets up to 385 grains in weight. .49 round ball weighs about 180 grains. Two round ball would weigh about the same (360 grains) as the heaviest bullet I have used (385 grains).

 

[mykeal]

Yes. Multiple balls or other 'junk' was done occasionally onboard naval vessels and on the battlefield in preparation for resisting a frontal assault. The dangerous situation you're probably thinking about is multiple powder charges in addition to the multiple projectiles. For instance, loading a second powder charge and ball on top of one already in the barrel is not a good practice.

 

[sundance44s]

I loaded 2... 50 cal patched round balls in my Hawken once by mistake ..To my supprise both balls hit side by side at 35 yards ...Got me thinking ..could make a deer hunting load for hunting the brush here where 50 yards is a long shot .I`d just make sure both balls are patched to hold them tight against each other ..no gap between them .
I was telling my local gunmaker about my find , he said sure , they`ll hit that way pretty much side by side every time at that range .

 

[Cosmoline]

Not in a rifle, but in a revolver yes.

Why the distinction?

 

[scrat]

sounds kinda crazy to me. I imagine i wouldnt mind trying it once. just not to make it a common practice.

 

[Voodoochile]

Why the distinction?

Because I've done a revolver & have read about it being done with a .38spl revolver but I've never heard or seen some one doing it in a rifle cept Buck & Ball on .69cal.

sounds kinda crazy to me. I imagine i wouldnt mind trying it once. just not to make it a common practice.

Kinda why I only done it once, too much lead & possible wear & tear on the gun..

 

[Mike_In_BC]

One of the old timers I shoot blackpowder with told me that back in the 70's here in BC they used to sometimes have an event at one of the rendevouz where you had two minutes (or some time period) to shoot at a paper target. The person with the most ball holes in the target at the end of the time would win. The strategy that developed was to load three or four balls, shoot, reload with three or four balls shoot, etc. Eventually somebody loaded too many and it was like having a plug in the barrel. Boom, wrecked the rifle and the guys hand. I don't know how many balls it took or any other details, but I do know they don't do that event any more.

 

[dogrunner]

I have, and found it to work very well. As someone said, impact points vary, one ball will be at the point of aim, the other nearby. It is an effective way to double your impact on game shots and not at all dangerous as long as you are sure to SEAT BALL TWO IN CONTACT W/ #l.....if you don't then you've what amounts to a bore obstruction.

Patch and seat #2 exactly as you did #1 and you will have no problems.

As an aside, the U.S. Military used "duplex" rounds in 7.62 nato cartridges for years to increase hit probability. One bullet was seated with the nose inside the tail of the forward one. The secondary projectiles that I've seen all had a slightly angled base to aid in dispersion. Hits with both bullets were really predicable with the round mimicing the muzzle loading method.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm going to try some experiments this weekend with light loads. So far here and on the ML forum it sounds like the practice is safe as long as the problem of bore obstruction is resolved. WIth my Kodiak that means tapping the loads home with the brass hammer and cross checking the unprimed barrel for slippage, but I'm doing that anyway and have a marked ram rod.

I've been leery about a "mere" fifty cal for local bear issues if I take this beast on the trail, but four roundballs in quick order ought to do the trick if anything will.

Now the next question is, would that mean my muzzleloader is a "machine gun" under federal law!? Probably, and by extension that means every ML is a machine gun along with all roundball. ML's are excluded from "firearms", but the definition of machine guns embraces all "weapons" including parts of weapons, not just firearms. 26 U.S.C.S § 5845(b). Therefore an otherwise excluded ML becomes a prohbited machine gun because it is or can be loaded with multiple bullets which are discharged with a single trigger pull. Maybe I'll ask the ATF about it LOL

 

[Curator]

Cosmoline,

Yes, loading two (or sometimes three) balls in a rifle was occasionally done. Once explorers ran into "Real Bears" out west it was comon practice to load two balls in their Hawken rifles. As the other posters point out it is not any more dangerous than using a heavy conical if both balls are in contact on top of the powder charge. Usually they hit within six inches of each other out to about 50 yards.

I have experimented with my own (replica) .52 caliber Hawken rifle and found the practice to be quite effective and practical except for the recoil. I was using 80 grains of FFg and two patched soft lead.52 round balls (195 grains each) Unfortunately, this combination is not legal for most States' muzzle loading big game seasons that require guns firing "two or more balls" to be of 20 gauge or larger.

During WWI prison guards in the US armed with old .45-70 Trapdoor rifles were issued "guard-cartridges" loaded with 40 grains of black powder and three .45 caliber round balls. Worked just fine.

 

[Omnivore]

Cosmo; Shotguns aren't "machineguns". It's not the number of projectiles that matters.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah but this is a rifle! It's at least as dangerous as a length of shoe string.

Unfortunately, this combination is not legal for most States' muzzle loading big game seasons that require guns firing "two or more balls" to be of 20 gauge or larger.

I seem to be fine under our regs, though this is more of a DLP load I'm working up. I've located some old load manual instructions for this on the ML forum and will post my results.

 

[DixieTexian]

The Walker would be a good revolver for this, as you can load two balls and still have plenty of powder space.

 

[jrfoxx]

huh. Thats pretty interesting. May have to try it out some time (just 2 balls, not the 3,4, or more mentioned that turned into a bad idea ).Seems safe enough as long as you dont get all crazy, stupid, and carried away.

 

[ED21]

We used to have a team stake shoot. The stake was a 4x4 pole. The object was the first team to cut the stake in two (make the top fall over) was the winner. Well, some of us were known to drop a couple of extra balls on top of the patched one. (as a side note here, after three or four shots the fouling would build and we would go to "spit balls." These were the balls we kept in our mouth and "spit them down the barrel.) We never had any problems but all were pretty experienced. (Not too smart either ) I don't think I would do this any longer now that I'm getting older and smarter)

 

[Mausermike]

I've seen ballistic photos of double ball loads in my old Lyman black powder manual.

The balls were severely flattened on one side and surely wouldn't be too accurate range increased.

 

[Play Hard]

I suppose two roundballs with a felt or fiber wad in between would help with the ball deformation. Anybody try this?