Double-Tap ammo...speed limitations and failures?

[Patton21]

Hey guys,
I have talked to both Speer and Mike from Double-Tap ammo and I am getting two different answers here. So here is what's up.
Speer claims their 115gr. 9mm round has a velocity range of 950-1300fps and will still perform as designed. Double-tap ammo pushes this gold dot bullet at well over 1300 fps. Do you think speer is being conservative or do you think double-tap ammo is pushing the gold-dot past its safe velocity max?
Anyone have first-hand experience with double tap ammo? thanks.

 

[jc2]

Double Tap pushes all their Gold Dot loads beyond optimum performance velocity. They sacrifice performance for velocity because velocity sells.

 

[dev_null]

So what are the theoretical drawbacks of DT's approach, and have they been sighted in the wild?

 

[Will Fennell]

10mm Doubletapp

I've shot quite a bit of Doubletap ammo, but only in 10mm. I've experience VERY good performance on deer and wild hogs with thier 180 gr Gold Dots @ 1300 fps, and the 200 gr XTP @ 1250 Fps. I've only recovered 1 Gold Dot....that was on a Buck with a broadside shot, and the bullet penetrated both shoulders, wrecking the lungs, and stopped against the skin on the far side. The bullet was nicely expanded, had certainly shed some wieght, but had held together through hide, bones, and meat to penetrate approx 20 ". I was VERY pleased with the performance as a hunting round.

I have since settled on the Doubletap 10mm loads featuring XTP bullets, either 180 or 200 grain, as I get better feeding and accuracy in my various 10mm's with this bullet over the Gold Dot loads.

I've recently seen several post on various forums regarding Doubletap ammo, and worries over too much speed.......I think each shooter needs to look at his/her requirements and views on performance.....do a bit of testing THEMSELVES, and buy what they want.

I will say this, all of the various 10mm loads I have tried from Doubletap have performed as advertised regarding velocity.....it IS fast. And that makes me happy

 

[bg226]

On thing I find suspicious from DoubleTap Ammo is that their .357 Sig ammunition appears to be loaded with 9mm bullets and loaded hot.

.357 SIG in 4.5" barrel:

115 Gr. GD @ 1612fps -- Seems like they are putting 9mm bullets in .357 Sig.

125 Gr. GD @ 1525fps -- Seems like the right bullet.

147 Gr. GD @ 1296fps -- Seems like they are putting 9mm bullets in .357 Sig.

 

[HSMITH]

Rather than worry, speculate or second guess call Mike and talk to him about your concerns.

Double Tap ammo may not be for everyone but the testing has been done, meticulously.

 

[Soybomb]

Double Tap pushes all their Gold Dot loads beyond optimum performance velocity. They sacrifice performance for velocity because velocity sells.

Doubletap's 165gr 10mm gold dot does 14+" and over an inch expansion in gelatin @ 1400 fps. Its probably safe to say that bullet is optimized for .40 speeds, but why does that mean it has to sacrifice performance at higher speeds too?

Personally I wouldn't make any blanket rule and I'd look at the actual performance of the round. Some of the lightest ones may fragment from the increased velocity, some perform even better.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Double Tap ammo is some great stuff. But what I can't understand is how they push their .45 ACP loads to the speeds that they offer. I'd love to do that, but everyone says I'd be beating up my 625 if I did it.

So, how is it that Double Tap can generate it? Short answer: Who cares? This stuff is good!

 

[Patton21]

A hunting round is one thing. But if you are going to use double-tap ammo for self defense then I think i definite answer on whether the 9mm gold dot is being pushed too fast is legitimate. I dont want a 115gr. round fragmenting or underpenetrating due to extreme velocity and over-expansion.

 

[Will Fennell]

Then try the 147 Gold Dot

Ok Patton,
So try the heavier Gold Dots......thinking about this thread prompted me to order some more DoubleTap ammo today, and I got a box of the 147 grain Gold Dot 9mm on the order to try in my 5" 1911 9mm.....it should scoot along nicely...finally getting resectable speeds from the great sectional density of the long 9mm 147 grain bullet.

BTW, since I posted this morning, I spent a bit of time on the range with the Chrono and my new 10mm 1911 w/6" longslide[Caspian Parts built by Virgil Tripp]......the 180 grain XTP DoubleTap ran 1455 av. over the chrono screens I can't wait till deer season

 

[Bob R]

I have a 10mm Delta that has been given the full treatment by Ted Yost. It runs flawlessly with any factory fodder.

I ran into problems with DT and not getting slide lock after the last round. I talked to Ted and his feeling was that a 1911 style 10mm would need an upgraded recoil spring and mainspring to function reliably and not beat itself to death.

So I now roll my own, I run 165g bullets at very close to 1200 ft/sec.

This works fine for me, works for the bullets, and keeps my DE from getting beat.

As far as DT pushing bullets too fast, I don't think so. Mike doesn't just dream up a load and start to sell it. I am sure there is plenty of testing and engineering involved to ensure proper bullet function.

If he sells it, he stands behind it.

bob

 

[SnakeEater]

The table below is a little over a year old, some things may have changed.

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 110fps - 14.75" / .68"

DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

 

[thales]

*


I've heard the "over-velocity" concern before; i.e., that the bullet will overexpand, fragment, and/or underpenetrate. Based on the testing I have seen, I'm not worried about it in the least.


*

 

[agtman]

This question has come up before - here and on other boards like GT and 10mmtalk.com.

Several posters have contacted Speer directly with respect to the velocity of DT's 10mm loads on the Gold Dot's likely performance. The Speer ballistic techician's comments were reported in the various threads on this topic. I recall one that was posted a while back on GT's Caliber Corner, and another on 10mmtalk.

The gist was that the Speer tech believed DT's higher velocities using the 155gn, 165gn & 180gn 10mm GDHPs were still within the bullet's design "window" for penetration and expansion purposes, i.e., that DT's velocities would not adversely affect the 10mm GD's performance. (Again, these reponses were to questions asked specifically about the 10mm Gold Dots, not other GD calibers).

That information, coming from the bullet maker's trained ballistic tech (i.e., someone who's paid to know what he's talking about), should carry more weight among reasonable people than snipes from the usual band of DoubleTap haters.

 

[LONZO]

Double Tap ammo in .45 Colt is junk. I just had to hammer a swc out through the breech. No more for me. Good thing my Blackhawk is indestructible.

 

[NOLAEMT]

that's too bad... one bad round doesn't make it junk ammo.

and this is a 4 year old thread. how did you find this for a first post?

 

[ufcfanvt]

SnakeEater,
or someone. Do you have this kind of expansion/penetration data for DT's 9mm line?

 

[CZF]

The 180gr Nosler JHP seems very powerful out of my compact framed P-06.


Faster 150 gr. Nosler JHP seems to be propelled by rocket fuel!

I really like the 150 over the 180 for recoil control and awesome
factor
.
I like the 147 Gold Dot the best in the DT lineup of 9mm loads.

Unlike some sub-sonic loads in the past. The DT load is much hotter and you can feel the power when you shoot it.

I don't know about gel testing, just that Gold Dots are proven on the streets and the extra punch from Double Tap gives me confidence in a 147 gr 9mm.


Mike's barn-burner 9mm load called the TAC-XP is very hot, but I've not been able to shoot much of it, or in the current 9mms that I have
in my collection.

Using the proven Barnes JHP. The load should perform equal or even better than the Cor-Bon DPX or similar Barnes loads.

My RAMI won't run the hot 9mm stuff, so I'll reserve it for a 75SA
or something else in the near future.

I;ve shot a lot of DT in the following calibers: 9mm, .38 special, .45 ACP. 10mm
.357 Magnum,



And now >40 S&W. I also plan on buying some
69 gr.BTHP 5.56 in the near future.


Double Tap might prove to be too hot or powerful for some, but
quality control/acuracy and customer service are top notch.

 

[357sigRog]

I have and often carry Double Tap ammo in all my handgun calibers, 10mm, 357sig, 40 S&W, 380acp and 38 Special. Never had any problems with any of it. People often say it does not meet the fps that is posted on the box but it is still hotter than other loads, you can tell when you pull the trigger.

 

[CZF]

I can imagine that he offers a fantastic .357 SIG load or loads.

 

[jonboynumba1]

I have been switching to doubletap for just about all my carry ammo needs lately. My expirience and the expirience of others I know is that Gold Dot bullets actually like being pushed hard....most of the factory speer loads show a good controlled moderate expansion (of course in water almost everything opens up great) but specifically their .45 bullets even when pushed a couple hundred FPS above what they are ideally made for hold together and work great...even expanded all the way to the base they usually hold together and have at that completely spent point about half their weight...and that is when most would have separated and the remaions of the core exited. Hornady XTP's are acurate as heck and expand to a much slower and lesser degree usually in the same load...and if pushed very very hard in some calibers become brittle and tend to fragment (thicker non-bonded jacket...not the bullets fault) that's why they perform well and controlled in the low and middle ranges though...you can't have it all (at least not in non-bonded jacketed HP's)

yet others that many say are brittle I've had good luck with...the Nolser 185gr .45 pushed to 1500+ FPS in a .460 Rowland converted 1911 dropped a buck for me a few years back at about 20-25 yards and retained I think around 70% of weight mushroomed back within 1/4" of the back but short of a pedal or two held together through a thick swollen neck and disentigrated the spine (accurate description) but was held under the hide opposite side (should have had one of the heavier 200gr or 230gr .460 loads but 185 was all we had left!) That was a relatively cheap but accurate HP that actually held together pushed WAY beyond what I', sure it was designed for...of course that was ONE shot! It's very easy to make assumptions based on very little actual data. I tend to trust the gold dot design the most...though for accuracy it's the XTP for me in my handloads often.

I'm trying the Nolsers in 135gr .40 now though...very cheap in bulk and very accurate...I haven't tested them on anything with a Momma yet. The old Corbon load with the 135gr sierra was a little brittle but did awsome things in camp varmints and water jugs. I should be getting some doubletap 135gr Nolser loads today! I'll let yah know if interested how they do wicked hot. You can push em to nearly 1300fps with a compressed load of Unique and be 10,000 PSI lower than the average .40 load! I'm going to A/B these with the hotter DT load and see what I like better...I doubt 75-100 FPS will make a huge difference but you never know till you try it! The nolsers may need to be pushed...who knows! It'll be in a 4" GLOCK 23 so lower chamber presures with unique (which I load nearly all my .45 loads with) sounds hard to beat (probably be more like 1200FPS in the 12)...interrested in seeing what mikes load does in it!

 

[Stpcline]

Jonboynuma1, what was your experience shooting the 135 gr .40 from double tap. I just ordered a hundred and want to give them a run. Just curious as to your experience.
Thanks, new to all of this stuff.

 

[alpha6164]

Chrono and my new 10mm 1911 w/6" longslide[Caspian Parts built by Virgil Tripp]......the 180 grain XTP DoubleTap ran 1455 av. over the chrono screens I can't wait till deer season

No offense but there is no way that the DT 180gr was going that fast in a 6" barrel. Do you know how fast 1455ft/sec is on a 180gr bullet? It means that it was producing 846ft/lb of energy which is unattainable out of a 6" barrel. I bet you can't find another source that shows their chrono'd their 180gr that fast. Most 10mm if pushed really hard is in the ~700ft/lb range not 850ft/lb. Go to glocktalk.com to the 10mm forum and there are many many people with chronos listed out of 6" barrel and most are shooting slower than what DT claims let alone +100ft sec over what DT claims on their own website. There is either something wrong with the chrono setup or you were shooting the 155ers and mixed up your numbers.

My chrono at seal level with DT ammo is:

DT 135gr = 1582 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1214 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1242 ft/sec


Check out this thread http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1248287

 

[DasFriek]

I think its been proven Mike needs to start re-testing and chrono'ing his loads again as no one seems happy and all his numbers seem over stated.

What is "Seal" level? do i need to get the animal on the beach and use him as a rest? Or is it when a Navy seal shoots the gun? As always im confused lol

 

[alpha6164]

^^^good one


Yeah that was supposed to be sea level lol