Doug Koenig SW1911 Unimpressed

[Navy joe]

I handled one of these yesterday at my local shop. The pistol was selling for 929 which is a pretty good price compared to what S&W wants them to sell for. Color me highly unimpressed. The pistol is nice looking if you like two-tone, I don't. I liked the trigger, flat trigger face which I like and a nice crisp break. That's where like stopped. The safety felt gritty cycling it on and off. Slide to frame was loose, you could get it to rattle slightly by shaking it. I know that is mainly aesthetics, but for 900 bucks? The one that really did it for me was I could get about .010-.015 movement vertical by pushing down on the barrel hood. What the heck? Is it really that hard to make a 1911 lock up correctly? For a parting shot, I dropped the mag. Looked to be made by Mec-gar which is fine, but the front half of the basepad breaking off on a pistol that just left the factory? Not fine.

I'm off to wrap some copper wire around JMB's grave and start making free electricity to afford something better.

If you feel compelled to spend that much and not enough to get a Baer or a Brown, please just get one of the base model STI's. Much nicer. I don't see Doug Koenig shooting this thing on his own time any time soon.

 

[denfoote]

This kinda reminds me of the M21 Thunder Ranch flap!!

You would think the Performance Center would have better quality, being a custom shop and all!!!

 

[Onmilo]

I'm thinking this guy has some affiliation with STI........
Ed Browns can be real hard to come by right now and EVERYBODY knows it takes 500 rounds to properly settle and break in the extremely tight fitting Les Baers.
Preformance Center guns are excellent and unless they are built as combat arms they most assuredly do not rattle.
Of course the gun in question may be a trade in from a serious shooter and it has had more than its fair share or rounds fired down range.
Of course, then again, I have some affection for Smith and Wesson products,,,,

 

[Navy joe]

The gun in question is brand spanking new, it sits on the wall at A&P arms in Hampton VA, If I had an affiliation with STI two things would happen. One, I'd sell whatever I got on a deal and buy an SVI, Two, that would mean I had a sponsorship which is something a Production guy shooting a Glock is never gonna see. Or, if I get the revo out there I can get good and wait for a S&W sponsorship, but wait, my name ain't Jerry.... So, no affiliation. The STI was mentioned because one of the shop guys usually wears a Trojan, which I think is a pretty okay gun for the price tag. I figure it is that, or get a GI Springfield and change the parts, or step up to a semi-custom if you have the bills.

My rant was not some promotion, but a little irritation that people spend this much money on a S&W or Kimber (MIM-ber, I liked that) and still don't have a grade A gun. Why pay that much if you change all the MIM parts? Why pay that much if the barrel isn't fitted worth a crap? For that matter, I bought a S&W 325 for a princely sum. I love it. But...fresh from the factory it was not 100% with all primer types, it failed to fire with some range ammo I bought. And the trigger? The famed S&W double action trigger? Heck, I thought I was pulling on a Taurus. So, I bought a long firing pin, some springs, some time polishing, now I have a very suitable carry piece. I just want to know, does it really have to cost 3K to have a carry pistol that needs no work out of the box? That's all.

Heck, I wish I had an affiliation, somebody would pay me to sell guns rather than go stand an armed watch in the cold with Italy's finest sidearm. But nope, so off I go.

 

[Onmilo]

So, now you know why you are carrying Italys finest sidearm.

I have an old 1911 that was rebuilt a couple of times and spent the better portion of fifty years laying under a couch.
After clean-up it still functions just fine and is still combat accurate.
One can't ask more than that from any handgun.

I rebuilt my S&W 1911 standard the way I wanted it done, there are no mim parts on the gun now.
I spent the money, for one, because I can, and for two, because I never thought I would see a 1911 with the Smith and Wesson logo on it.

 

[4013TSW]

Have you tried a SIG GSR?

 

[Longbow]

I'm not fond of a straight faced trigger, and I noticed that the Koenig hammer it got is not lightened all the way (no center cut), not like the way its sold as a part. ' wonder why? Overall, I think, its an okay gun.
I do, however, like the Scandium commander very much!

 

[eerw]

They make two different ones..

a standard part and a premium..the premium has the additional cut to lighten it..

 

[SamlautRanger]

what are MIM parts? What does MIM stand for? Thanks.

 

[Ky Larry]

SamluatRanger, MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding.

 

[Coronach]

There is some debate about the strength of MIM parts. The general consensus is that they are inferior to forged parts.

Mike

 

[dmftoy1]

I can't speak for the strength of MIM parts in guns as I've never had one fail, but one thing to consider is that MIM has been in use in cars for quite some time. The connecting rods in Corvette's, Powerstroke Diesel's, etc are all made using MIM technology. I'm not a metalurgist so i can't speak to the relative stress's of say a diesel engine vs. firing a 1911, but to my way of thinking there's probably much greater stress put on a diesel's connecting rods.

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[BluesBear]

I think S&W is still using Act-Mag magazines for their 1911 pattern pistols (as well as for some of their other series).
Usually with the Novak's logo on them.

The exact same mag is available with the Armscor logo. When you buy an Armscor 1911 pattern oistol you sometimes get a pair marked Novak's and sometimes you get a pair marked Armscor.

I can buy the blued Armscor marked ones at the local gunshows for $13.

 

[rockstar.esq]

If the damned thing is rattling when new, S&W should be ashamed. I believe that MIM should be welcomed since it leads to high quality at reasonable cost. I believe that too many shooters worry about anything that results in a change that makes guns more affordable! I heard a gunsmith berating some poor sales guy from Ruger. He said that "cast" frames were'nt up to snuff..so on and so forth. Never mind that many reloading manuals have specific loadings expressly for Rugers and Freedom Arms. Never mind that one Freedom Arms firearm could buy you three new Rugers! If we could focus our energies on fixing actual problems instead of worrying about maybes the gun buying public could recognize a good deal when they see it.

 

[Kevinch]

Well, I have 2 "Mimkers" as they are referred to above - and if anyone here has one they consider junk, please let me know & I'll give you 10x times the gun's weight in scrap value.....

That aside, S&W producing a 1911....that's like GM producing a Mustang, Dodge producing a Camaro or BMW a Ram Hemi....

Some things just aren't right because...well, they just aren't!

 

[Smurfslayer]

makes guns cheaper?

To this comment:

If the damned thing is rattling when new, S&W should be ashamed. I believe that MIM should be welcomed since it leads to high quality at reasonable cost. I believe that too many shooters worry about anything that results in a change that makes guns more affordable!

[SS] I'm not a 1911 guy. It would be a fair statement to say that as far as 1911's are concerned, I just don't "get it". I think that 1911's are to guns what Harley Davidson's are to motorcycles. Fantastic following, great money makers and way too darn expensive for what you get. That said, and my prejudices out in the open...

I'd like to see some proof that the use of MIM parts is doing ANYTHING BUT increasing the profit margin for the manufacturers. I have yet to notice a price drop from any manufacturer implementing the MIM Parts ... 1911's of quality are still $1k and over, and having shot both the 1911 of ww2 vintage and the M9 I wouldn't trust my life to the 1911 of any maker. (yes, I know that is a statistically irrelevant, and purely emotional/irrational judgment).

Not for nothing, but the 1911 has been around for a host of decades now, and is arguably the gun to compete with... WHY exactly are these guns so expensive? For G*d's sake, they're more plentiful than the small block chevy v8. So... Where are the "more affordable" guns ?

WRT PC guns - I have 2 * man, I hope nobody in the S/A forum spontaneously combusts * a 327 and a 627... Both the 327 and the 627 to a much lesser degree have some part or parts I can hear in side when I try to shake the gun like a beer I'm about to give somebody in desparate need of a soaking. Both guns shoot like the dickens too, completely unaffected by that rattling ( that's really exaggerating ). The 627 is just ridiculously accurate and impossible for even a die hard semi auto guy to dislike.

Your mileage may vary, but I am quite pleased with my two S&W PC offerings.
All guest shooters have agreed as well...

 

[Bobby Lee]

" 1911's are to guns what Harley Davidson's are to motorcycles. Fantastic following, great money makers and way too darn expensive for what you get"

1911's and Harleys have a lot in common.

They are both antique designs.

They are too expensive.

They have reliability problems.

Their owners will deny all of the above.

Harley riders will deny the reliability problems while they are trying to push the heavy POS home after it died a horrible death.

1911 shooters will deny the reliability problems by saying as long as it is clean and properly lubed and only a certain mag and ammo is used they work most of the time.

 

[Bobby Lee]

"If you feel compelled to spend that much and not enough to get a Baer or a Brown, please just get one of the base model STI's. Much nicer."

I agree. The vast majority of STI 1911 pistols I have seen were much better quality than anything S&W makes.

 

[Navy joe]

Smurf,
That rattling sound in your 327 and 627 is just the firing pin block safety. No problem.

As far as MIM, why? Like someone said it hasn't gotten the guns any cheaper. The parts are cheaper if you are buying them individually, but that appears to get ate up in profit margin. MIM is just skippy in parts that aren't precision fit like a hammer or a sear, or under great stress like the extractor or slide stop. Yes, a lot of these parts work, but they do break at very bad times.

 

[Kevinch]

I don't feel the need to defend the 1911 - to each his own - & I haven't been here for a while & don't want to be accused of trolling, but:

1911's of quality are still $1k and over

I don't know that is true. Quality is subjective I guess, but I have a 1911 I paid ~$600 for (NIB) that is as accurate & reliable as any other semi-auto I currently own/have owned, & shoots anything I feed it.

WHY exactly are these guns so expensive? For G*d's sake, they're more plentiful than the small block chevy v8. So... Where are the "more affordable" guns ?

Not sure what you mean by more affordable, but you can buy a new Charles Daly for ~$375, a new Springfield will run ~$400.

They are both antique designs.

Yep - so are bolt action rifles, revolvers, & the cartridges we shoot, etc. Good designs have a way of sticking around for a long time!

They have reliability problems.

Well, in my experiance my 686 revolver, M85 revolver & MKII .22LR pistol have spent more time in for repair - but I guess anything mechanical will have that propensity...

To me, what is the most humerous is how shooters of X brand or type classify shooters of Y brand or type - just like motorcycle riders. It's fun to read though!

 

[rockstar.esq]

Bobby Lee you are my hero!

 

[Bobby Lee]

"To me, what is the most humerous is how shooters of X brand or type classify shooters of Y brand or type - just like motorcycle riders"

When it comes to motorcycles Harley riders put down the Jap bike riders because they don't ride a Harley.

Jap bike riders don't want a Harley because they are expensive and unreliable compared to a Jap bike.

The Jap bike riders are using logic and common sense instead of "feelings" and other assorted BS when they pick a Honda Shadow over a Harley.

Their logic is the Honda is cheaper, much more reliable and it rides just as well or better than the Harley. This seems like a valid reason to me.

Just like the valid reason that some Glock, Sig or whatever owners don't wish to pay $1,200 for a 1911 that will not be any better than their $400 to $600 gun and in some cases not as good.

Using logic and common sense is just that. It is not putting anyone down. It is just the average guy that works for a living getting the best product for the money.

 

[Kevinch]

Hey there Bobby - FWIW:

When it comes to motorcycles Harley riders put down the Jap bike riders because they don't ride a Harley.

Jap bike riders don't want a Harley because they are expensive and unreliable compared to a Jap bike.

The Jap bike riders are using logic and common sense instead of "feelings" and other assorted BS when they pick a Honda Shadow over a Harley.

I ride a 2002 Yamaha Midnight Venture, and a 1996 Suzuki Intruder 1400.
My wife rides a 2003 Yamaha VStar Silverado.
My daughter rides a 2002 Suzuki Savage (that her mother & I bought her as a college graduation present).
My closest friend rides a 1984 HD Low Rider, & a 1998 HD Ultra Classic - & he doesn't "put me down" for riding an import. Neither do the other dozen or so friends I have that ride HD; they don'r put down my dozen or so other friends that ride import either.
In fact - I rode my Venture to Harley's 100th Anniversary bash, & parked it at a few HD dealers & manufacturing plants (my wife was with me on her VStar). The only attention we garnered was people looking over our bikes to check them out. I told one guy in particular that I couldn't read & the salesman told me it said "Harley Davidson" on the tank!

I know there is still some HD/Import bashing that goes on - but, in a larger sense, today bikers accept bikers for being bikers.

Their logic is the Honda is cheaper, much more reliable and it rides just as well or better than the Harley. This seems like a valid reason to me.

You're making an assumption for a lot of people! That might be why you want an import bike - but I doubt you can speak for everyone. (Certainly, you shouldn't speak for me!)

Just like the valid reason that some Glock, Sig or whatever owners don't wish to pay $1,200 for a 1911 that will not be any better than their $400 to $600 gun and in some cases not as good.

Using logic and common sense is just that. It is not putting anyone down. It is just the average guy that works for a living getting the best product for the money.

I dunno - I consider myself an average guy - a steady job, a wife who works, 1 daughter, 1 dog, 1 cat, 3 bedrooms, etc ...you get the idea. Again, while you can certainly spend $1200 on a "factory custom" 1911 & way more for a full tilt custom built gun, I've had excellant service from my $600 Kimber & to me, it is every bit the value of any other $600 pistol out there. I can't speak for the Daly & Springfield guns as I've never owned 1, but if they are as reliable as my Kimber, then at $400 or less I'd have to think they are just as much value, $$ for $$, as a Glock, Sig, or whatever.

I think it is simply a personal choice - but it gives internet rangers something to debate!

 

[dmftoy1]

Yes, a lot of these parts work, but they do break at very bad times.

Navy Joe, do you have any pictures of an MIM part "breaking"? The reason i ask is that I've seen some pictures of diesel's that have injested water (hydrolocked) and the connecting rods bent but did not break. (surprised me as I expected breakage)

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[Smurfslayer]

It seems that some of us on both sides of the 1911 fence do see the reality.

The reality is the 1911 is a money maker, period. Just like almost all the Harley "cruiser" bikes are. The design is largely unchanged, most of the "work" to make any changes on the existing design is already done. The difference between Harleys, 1911's and other durable goods is that once high demand items like VCR's, DVD players / recorders, plasma tv's etc... are in the market for a while, the price comes down. I'm sure there are scores of factors involved in the differences which we need not discuss here...

No question, 1911's are high demand items; a "must have" for a lot of American shooters, but as has been sagely pointed out, a great deal of 1911's can be 'outshot' by a host of current crop offerings from other mfgrs. for less money. BUT - they're not 1911's.

Of course, I say this now, as I remember saying to myself years ago about revolvers... "What's the big deal with revolvers?" Now I understand...

I'll probably end up with a gold plated STI pimp gun .45 this year, watch...

My main point is that the 1911 market is artificially inflated, and there's just too much price gouging going on in that market. I think my Performance Center revovlers are overpriced - Very, very good... but overpriced. Damn fun to shoot though. I've been a guest shooter of a Mim err... Kimber and it was good... Not enough for me to stray from shooting my vastly superior 627 but good...