Down and to the left, down and to the.......

[schadenfreude]

I'm just recently getting back into shooting and I bought a Glock 17 and a Beretta vertec to use at the range. I'm coming up against a few things that are a pin in the butt such as I'm right handed/left eye dom. I finally started closing the left eye and forcing my right eye and my aim steadily improved but now I have a new problem.

My groups are all down and to the left. I set up a plain whit target with 5 orange stickers on it and shot ten at each aiming dead center and not compensating. I would like to say I took my time and got a nice trigger press. All groups were down and to the left.

I had my brother watch me today and he said he saw no evidence of me tensing or anticipating the shot so I dunno. I don't think it's my G17 since I got similar results with his G19.

Any thoughts? :banghead:



BTW, great community you have going here. I'm a moderator on one of the largest online discussion forums so the small community here is really refreshing.

 

[Hal]

I set up a plain whit target with 5 orange stickers on it

1.) Use a black target ~ 12 in in dia instead of the Orange on White.
2.) Move the target closer for the first few shots.
3.) (The real problem) Keep your eyes on the front sight, don't look over the sight to see where the bullets strike.

- Using solid black will make it harder to see where the bullets hit, and is less prone to draw your focus than the small Orange dots on the white background.

- Closer will build the old confidence back quicker and take your attention off of how you're doing.

- Don't have to do more than swivel in your seat for this one. Hold your hands up like your firing and raise your head up and down as you focus on a spot across the room. Now watch you strong hand knuckle move down and out of your line of sight.

FWIW, I have the same problem from time to time. All it takes is knowing what it is and what to do to stop it. Matter o fact, I honestly believe close to 99% of the "problems" posters post about are curable by doing nothing more than training themselves to focus on the front sight and to resist the urge to "see how they're doing" as they shoot.

 

[Ky Larry]

Check out www.sportshooter.com/improving/targetgallery.htm
Scroll down to the first target. Hope this helps. Shoot well and often.

 

[Navy joe]

I think you are selling yourself short using the non-dominant eye. I would say that most folks get better results using a squared up stance(isosceles) and just roatating your head slightly to the right so your left eye is on line with the sights. Work towards keeping both eyes open. With a long gun you will have to choose, either keep closing the left eye or train your left trigger finger which I would think to be preferable.

As far as hitting low, it's you as you already know. Mix some snapcaps into the live mag and you will see yourself jerk of target when the gun goes click instead of bang. Do you see the muzzle flash when the gun fires? Can you track the sights as the rise off target and return under recoil? If not you have the wrong focus or are blinking as part of your flinch when the gun fires. Dryfire at home. Dryfire at the range in between mags. Dryfire every other shot if you need to. Just dryfire. The object is for the gun to go click without the slightest movement of the sights. Please just dryfire. Try the dime drill; can you place a dime on the front sight and extend to a firing grip and dryfire without the dime falling off?

Did you shoot your Vertec, or just the G17? The Glocks are great for magnifying trigger errors since the long stroke goads folks with problems into yanking the trigger. When you fire keep the trigger held to the rear and then slowly release until you feel a slight click which is the trigger bar snapping back in front of the connector. Pull for you next shot from there. That is known as shooting from the reset. Try a little more trigger finger, with the long stroke most people do better shooting a Glcok or similar DAO gun with the trigger closer to the first finger joint rather than at the tip. Some of your left problem could be from this, pressing the trigger sideways with your fingertip as you come back.
The Vertec has it's own issues in the DA/SA transition. It seems that folks who practice the SA pull whack the first DA shot into parts unknown while the DA practicers jerk the second shot because they are stroking through like it is going to be a DA pull. When scoring match targets I rarely see two nice centered hits on a DA/SA shooter's first target. If I do they've been practicing a ton and are likely beating the crap out of you in the match...

 

[schadenfreude]

Thanks for all the great reply's!

I am noticing this problem mostly with the Glock. I haven't shot the Beretta much lately. I either need to do something with the trigger on the vertec or sell it so I havent been shooting with it.

I'll start practicing dryfiring today and at the range this weekend

 

[schadenfreude]

Ohhh yeah, no matter if I use my right eye or tilt my head and use my left eye, the results are the same. The only time it gets bad is when I use both eyes.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I have felt the same pain you have with the Glock.

I got a G19 and was shooting everything down and left. Used the target that Ky Larry posted and it confirmed it.

Next thing I did was shoot it from a ransom rest. Sure enough, the gun was dead center. One ragged hole.

So I concentrated on trigger pull and whalla, my groups improved conciderably.

The Glock trigger set up does take a little getting used to but once you do, you will be addicted.

 

[10-Ring]

LOW & LEFT does scream out you just need some dry fire practice to get some smoothness back into your technique. Practice, practice, practice & you'll be okay

 

[Navy joe]

I was considering the eye problem seperately from your low & left problem since it should be simple to aim accurately with either eye. By using your dominant eye now you will be prepared for when you start shooting better and fall into instinctive use of the sights when shooting rapidly. You see them, you just don't know you did. Additionally you will probably not have time or thought to close one eye in a defensive shooting, so make both eyes open your practice now.

What's wrong with the Vertec trigger?

I'll make you feel better. I saw a new shooter last night that was 8" low and 6" left with a G19.
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At 3 yards.

 

[P95Carry]

This may be an unnecessary mention but ... I'll throw it in anyways ......

Regardless of eye dominance etc .... in a handgun, where the sitebase is inevitably short ... ANY error in the sight picture is major, when compared with errors in sighting on a long arm.

It is ESSENTIAL to always get focus back to sights ONLY - before release .. the target should be relatively a blur .... and then the siight picture is finally adjusted or maintain during release.

Your grip has an effect ... of course but unless you watch that sight picture properly and in focus (as best your eyes will do! Mine are not so good!) ..... then around time of release you can be off badly . and most people will go the same basic direction each time.

Without trying to tell grandmother how to suck eggs ... just a reminder here with the sight pic ....... foresight LEVEL with shoulder of rear .... and EQUAL 'daylight' either side of foresight blade. Simple I know but unless maintained at and thru release .. problems!!

 

[schadenfreude]

What's wrong with the Vertec trigger?

The trigger is way to close on the SA pull. The Second shot is hard for me to even make. It seemed fine in the gun shop but at the range it was different. I can squeeze with all I got and the trigger wont pull. I have to scoot my finger out so I can get more leverage on the trigger.

I guess it's hard to explain but it just feels akward to me. Maybe I can replace the trigger with a different one.


Do I need snap caps for the glock and the beretta>? I thought I read that it was okay to dryfire the glock but not the beretta.


Thanks again

 

[JohnKSa]

It's OK to dryfire any modern centerfire.

Depending on your definition of dryfire. If you mean once in awhile, or even a few times a night then it's OK.

If you mean a hundred times a day, rain or shine, something's eventually going to break.

Snap caps are cheap, and can be ordered over the web if you can't find them in your area.

NOW, to the original question. If you're shooting cross-dominant, you MUST close your dominant eye or you will have exactly the type of problem you describe.

You're lining up the sights in front of your non-dominant eye, but your dominant eye is still the one that is seeing the target. You're going to get misalignment. I'm surprised you're doing as well as you are.

If you want to shoot with both eyes open, you're going to have to switch to shooting left-handed.

 

[schadenfreude]

Actually, I am lining up with the pistol in front of my right eye and closing my dominant left eye. The instant I open my left eye, the view changes. I have absolutely no way to focus with the right eye if the left one is open. If I close the weak eye and use the left eye I have to tilt my head onto my shoulder.

I read somewhere that I could put cello tape over my shooting glasses on the left side that way I can keep both eyes open but force the right eye to be dominate. I might give that a try.

I tried shooting left and that was really really weak.

 

[Navy joe]

You do not need to close your non-dominant eye. There are plenty of very accomplished cross dominant shooters out there ,like say Brian Enos. Find a copy of the Sep/Oct Front Sight and there is an excellent picture of his stance. Converting folks to left handed just hinders their ability. The eye problem is not making everything miss, Your finger is. Try the scotch tape trick, eventually it will train your eyes and you won't need it anymore. In my experience closing one eye just causes the other one to go screwy after a while from muscle strain.

Dryfire away, I only recommend the snapcaps so you can mix some in your live ammo and see the results of your trigger pull when you don't expect them. To keep yourself from cheating put them at random places in each mag and then mix the mags up. I use empty cases, but that introduces a new variable, sometimes they feed, sometimes not so I get to see if I'm flinching and practice malfunctions.

The Vertec, I don't know much about them except the one I played with had a nice SA pull. Does this thing have an adjustable overtravel stop for the trigger? If so, adjust it. What about a mag disconnect, maybe it is doing something screwy. Should be a nice trigger, take it to a smith if you can't figure it out.

 

[Brian Williams]

One problem that causes low and left is if when you are drawing the trigger to the rear you are allowing your finger to force the gun to the left and not straight to the rear. You also might be Milking the grip, if while you are tighting your finger to pull the trigger, you are also squeezing the grip tighter with the other fingers, causing the gun to point low, try to keep the tension of your grip to remain the same throughout your trigger squeeze.


So, work on straight to the rear trigger pull and gripping the gun the same throughout the trigger pull.

Try "No Gun trigger practice. Hold your hand like you are holding a gun and move yor trigger finger like you are pulling a trigger and watch your middle and ring finger. You are looking for a straight to the rear trigger finger movement and no, I mean no movement of the rest of your fingers.


Now try it with an unloaded gun. Watch straight down as if you are looking down thru the mag well and watch for rotatinon of the slide away from the target. If it is towards the 1 O'clock direction then you are milking or squeezing the grip, if towards the 11 O'clock direction then you are allowing the trigger finger to pull the gun.


these directions are for a right-handed shooter, reverse all for lefties.



About cross Eye domanance just use your left eye and hold your gun so it lines up. I will often shoot with my less dominant eye to simulate a problem with my good eye.

My Son (Swordsmith3 on THR) is left eye dominant and he shoots handguns right handed with his left eye.


To quote C.R. Sam
Either hand
Either eye
practice both

 

[longtom4570]

I am left eye dominant and right handed, i shoot right handed and do well if i shoot right handed right eye i'm off alot. But like others have said try other ways and see what works for you.

 

[schadenfreude]

Okay, I went to the range today and shot 400 rds of 9mm and 300 rds of 22.

I have no accuracy problems with the 22. I am pretty sound overall with that.

My Beretta and Glock. First let me say that the Beretta is much more pleasurable to shoot because it has better sights than the glock. but back on topic.

All my groups were good when I set up each shot. and took the time to double check I want flinching and my final focus was on the front sight. I did much better.

The tip about dry firing to see myself flinch was dead on. I was anticipating the recoil and leaning forward. I'm going to buy some snap caps and mix it up a little to get used to relaxing.

I wasn't low on really any target today but I still favor the left side quite a bit in the beginning. I need to remember to bring aq pen to the range next time to take notes on the target.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

eye dominant problems

I think you are selling yourself short using the non-dominant eye. I would say that most folks get better results using a squared up stance(isosceles) and just roatating your head slightly to the right so your left eye is on line with the sights.

That is right on for me! Works like a charm.

 

[schadenfreude]

I think you are selling yourself short using the non-dominant eye. I would say that most folks get better results using a squared up stance(isosceles) and just roatating your head slightly to the right so your left eye is on line with the sights.

Ohh yeah, that's what I did today. I used my dominate left eye the entire day. Good results overall.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Left eye dominant and right handed here too. Learned to shoot everything left handed.

Only thing I can shoot right handed is pistols. Learned to aim with the left eye while holding the pistol in the right hand. Accuracy didnt suffer.

Primary CCW carry is left side.

 

[Graystar]

Next time you shoot, consciously squeeze with your pinky as well. I realized one day that I was barely using my pinky in gripping the gun and it helped when I finally did. Also, when I grip the gun I don’t just squeeze but I also press the grip into my palm. Both these actions helped me to "fix" the grip to my hand such that pressing the trigger had less effect on my aim.

 

[Navy joe]

A glock specific item that may help. I absolutely hate that retarded trigger safety. As issued the thing tears up my finger, makes me use the wrong part of the finger, pull funny, etc. I chop mine off. They are still functional, but sit flush with the trigger surface when depressed. While I'm at it I also chop the front lower end off the trigger so it is flat, instead of curved. Then I lightly buff it all up with a Dremel. (careful, don't melt it.)

Vastly improves trigger feel. Do not attempt if you are uncomfortable with the concept of customizing a handgun with a pocketknife.

 

[N3rday]

Don't feel so bad, at least you are precise, though not accurate.
My shots with that Glock 19 from 7 yards were way innacurate

It doesn't feel like i'm innaccurate, I have a flinching problem AND I hear the Glock has a bad trigger

Of course, being the only gun I've fired, I wouldn't know...
Anything to do with that trigger safety-mabob?

 

[45R]

I shoot with both eyes open. I'm RH and LED. So shooting pistols can be a challege. Just spend more time dry firing and at the range. The more you practice the more the groups will tighten up.