Sav .250
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What? You must be kidding. That`s my answer. I guess my ," marksman skill development"
was born, raised and refined in the service.
How and what other folks do is their business.
No further comment required.
Dry-fire practice without snap caps: Yes or No?
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What? You must be kidding. That`s my answer. I guess my ," marksman skill development"
was born, raised and refined in the service.
How and what other folks do is their business.
No further comment required.
I'm laughing about the recommendation not to dry fire Glocks "excessively." Ask pretty much any manufacturer if you should do X "excessively," and the answer is almost necessarily no.
Hey, doctor, should I eat apples excessively?
No, don't eat apples to excess.
Hey, Ford, should I drive my truck excessively fast?
No, that's inadvisable.
Hey, Ruger, should I run excessively hot loads in my Blackhawk?
No. It's a sturdy gun, but don't do anything excessive.
Etc... "Excessive" definitionally means "too much." So, no, nobody should do anything excessively.
Hey, doctor, should I eat apples excessively?
No, don't eat apples to excess.
Hey, Ford, should I drive my truck excessively fast?
No, that's inadvisable.
Hey, Ruger, should I run excessively hot loads in my Blackhawk?
No. It's a sturdy gun, but don't do anything excessive.
Etc... "Excessive" definitionally means "too much." So, no, nobody should do anything excessively.
old lady new shooter
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Snap caps are cheap enough, why take the chance?
And I'm curious to know why some people would apparently prefer not to use them?
Just curious, not meant to be taken personally. I did lots of dry fire in the service and it is a mainstay for top competitors. Just wondering why someone would be dead-set against it. Of course it is your business and you don't have to answer...but it is a discussion thread on dry fire that you felt a need to participate in...kinda.
Ramone
Member
I answered ' doesn't hurt '...
Really, for me, the question would come down to ' how much dry firing are you doing?'
If I am doing maybe 15-20 penny drills ( balancing a penny on top of a pistol to check your trigger pull), I'm not concerned.
If I am doing hundreds of dry firings, then I want something to cushion the firing pin.
With the exception of some firearms known to have issues with dry firing, I don't think it's critical- but it can't hurt. As others have noted, it can be an aid to handling and reloading practice.
As to it being unnecessary for training, the first week of rifle training in the USMC is 'Grass Week', where recruits spend the week learning the positions and dry firing before range week. As a Scout/Sniper, I considered dry firing to be a critical part of both training and practice.
Really, for me, the question would come down to ' how much dry firing are you doing?'
If I am doing maybe 15-20 penny drills ( balancing a penny on top of a pistol to check your trigger pull), I'm not concerned.
If I am doing hundreds of dry firings, then I want something to cushion the firing pin.
With the exception of some firearms known to have issues with dry firing, I don't think it's critical- but it can't hurt. As others have noted, it can be an aid to handling and reloading practice.
As to it being unnecessary for training, the first week of rifle training in the USMC is 'Grass Week', where recruits spend the week learning the positions and dry firing before range week. As a Scout/Sniper, I considered dry firing to be a critical part of both training and practice.
Hanzo581
Member
I took it as he wanted someone to question him so he could explain his expert marksmanship did not require any dry fire practice.
Simple answer. It depends.
Virtually any modern centerfire and even most modern rimfires can be dryfired without fear of damage.
But there's dryfiring and there's dryfiring.
If, by "dryfiring" you mean snapping the gun occasionally for disassembly or for infrequent practice then don't worry about it unless your owner's manual states otherwise.
If you "dryfiring" you mean you plan to do around an hour of dryfire practice every day from now on (500,000 to 1,000,000 dryfires a year), then it wouldn't hurt to use snapcaps.
Virtually any modern centerfire and even most modern rimfires can be dryfired without fear of damage.
But there's dryfiring and there's dryfiring.
If, by "dryfiring" you mean snapping the gun occasionally for disassembly or for infrequent practice then don't worry about it unless your owner's manual states otherwise.
If you "dryfiring" you mean you plan to do around an hour of dryfire practice every day from now on (500,000 to 1,000,000 dryfires a year), then it wouldn't hurt to use snapcaps.
Kendal Black
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There is a thread going on over here raising the concern that live ammo might be mistaken for snap caps, leading to a situation.
This concern evaporates where correct safety observances are carried on. We act as if all guns are always loaded, even when they are intentionally not. Then if that snap cap really does go bang, we're covered, because we had a safe backstop and our muzzle was not directed at anything we were not willing to destroy.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bad-color-choice.821307/#post-10548639
You say this as if "we" are governed by some universal rule that "we" all are obliged to follow. Who is this "we" anyway? I don't do that. I dry fire my weapons regularly while pointing them at things that I don't want to shoot, like my computer, or a shelf in my basement, or the stove in my kitchen. Heck, I carry my pistol in an appendix holster so I regularly point it at things I don't want to shoot while holstering, even while doing live fire practice. Are you saying that you never dry fire your weapons inside your house?
I have personal knowledge of 2 NDs that occurred with dry fire practice. I knew a detective, (sadly passed away a few years ago) who used to dry fire practice at his reflection in a full length mirror at the end of the hall in his home. He had been cleaning his service weapon (a S&W revolver) when he was interrupted by a phone call. He took the call and then went back to his weapon. His procedure was to always dry fire at that mirror after cleaning his weapon. So he walked back into the room, picked up his revolver, stepped into the hall and put a round through the mirror and the wall behind it. Fortunately there was no room behind the wall at the end of the hall. He told me the only thing he could think of was that when the phone rang, he loaded his revolver assuming the phone meant he was being called into work.
The other ND was a friend who routinely dry fired at his TV and somehow ended up with a loaded weapon and destroyed his TV.
I have a dedicated dry fire only target. When I dry fire in the house, I unload my weapon, leaving all of the ammunition in the other room. I hang up the dry fire target and I practice. When I finish, I take the target down, put it up and load my weapon. The only time I ever dry fire in the house is at that target. I don't trust myself not to get distracted and inadvertently point a loaded weapon at something I'm not willing to destroy. I've seen it happen to two very experienced people.
Kendal Black
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I dry fire inside my house all the time. I have a selected place for it, in the basement. If the gun were to fire it would hurt no one. The bullet would encounter drywall and cinderblock and I would have to fix that. There would be no further consequences, however. Behind the foundation blocks is Mother Earth.
"We" is anyone who adheres to the Four Rules. Here is the best explanation of those rules that I have come up with. If you like it, please share it far and wide.
http://shootery.blogspot.com/2013/06/gun-safetys-four-rules-dont-end-up-in.html
Jeb Stuart
member
Check your owners manual! Do not rely on internet know it alls! When in doubt don't. Snap caps are NOT a waste of money. Cheap insurance. I use plastic dry wall anchors for 22.cal. I never dry fire any 22.cals and rarely any other weapons. To load up a magazine or revolver with snap is so easy.
Ramone
Member
I've actually got a few designated 'Safe Direction' spots in my apartment, marked by a few used targets that I saved from days I was shooting particularly well.
Two are pinned up on the end of bookshelves, as I am fairly confident that 40" of hardcover books ( plus the sides of the shelf) make a sufficient backstop. The other is backed by a brick wall and a brick chimney.
I've never had an ND, but I do believe that the only way to end that sentence is ' yet '.
I'm not going to discuss this further beyond this post since that's not what this thread is about. Suffice it to say that it frustrates me when I see people quoting a poorly worded, half accurate and overly simplistic set of "rules" as if they're gospel that every gun owner must know like some sort of cult oath.
Well, this is a firearms discussion forum after all and none of us came up with the "4 rules" (so none of this is personal) so what are yours? What is poorly worded about them?
Kendal Black
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You may yet become a convert of this cult. I pray the cost of your conversion is not too high. Quite often, an unexpected loud noise accompanies enlightenment.
Thing about the Four Rules is they work as advertised. As in the above-linked article, I can find in any shooting accident, for which I have clearly reported and accurate details, the transgression that led the sinner astray. Therefore it is reasonable to suppose that any reasonably founded system of gun handling would incorporate these principles, or something very like them.
I meant what I said here. I'd be happy to "discuss"this in another thread.
Feel free to start one. As long as it stays civil it will be an interesting discussion.
I'm also curious as to what your personal rules for safely handling firearms are and how they differ from the four universal rules. The 4 rules weren't carried down off of a mountain in the desert engraved on stone tablets. However they have served our community well for a couple generations.
If you have some rules of gun handling that are working for you, we're interested in hearing them. There is seldom just one correct way to do something.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I have guns that I know were designed to be dry-fired without harm (eg, Ruger Security Six ) and guns I know can suffer damage from dry-firing (eg, CZ-52 pistol with cast steel firing pin).
Do I need to use snap caps for dry-fire practice?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
_ Absolutely, if there is any question that the gun may be damaged by dry-firing.
_ Even if the design is OK for dry fire, it does not hurt to have and use snap caps, because I could be misinformed about the design.
_ Snap caps that double as dummy cartridges are useful for training and checking function.
ADDED:
I make a point when dry firing of having a backstop that will safely contain a bullet in case of a major foul up. Dry firing should be done with all respect due a lethal weapon, strict muzzle discipline, strict trigger discipline, and avoidance of collateral damage. Dry firing is deadly weapon practice.
Do I need to use snap caps for dry-fire practice?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
_ Absolutely, if there is any question that the gun may be damaged by dry-firing.
_ Even if the design is OK for dry fire, it does not hurt to have and use snap caps, because I could be misinformed about the design.
_ Snap caps that double as dummy cartridges are useful for training and checking function.
ADDED:
I make a point when dry firing of having a backstop that will safely contain a bullet in case of a major foul up. Dry firing should be done with all respect due a lethal weapon, strict muzzle discipline, strict trigger discipline, and avoidance of collateral damage. Dry firing is deadly weapon practice.
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With millions of dry firings in centerfire rifled arms with empty chambers by thousands of competitive shooters every few years without mishap nor damage to modern arms, it's proved not an issue. The impact of the hammer or firing pin against their stop is small compared to the impact case heads have on breech faces. Military training with small arms "snapping in" with empty chambers hasn't damaged any firearm for over a century.
Rimfire arms' firing pin stop is the barrel flat at the chamber edge that dents easily. It's much, much smaller in impact area than centerfire hammer or pin stops. Use fired cases as snap caps in rim fires.
Exceptions often apply to double guns whose receivers are a bit on the soft side and are limited to peak pressures of about 40,000 psi. Double rifles and shotguns, primarily. Their receivers are often soft enough to make engraving easier for fine detail. Snap caps are needed.
Rimfire arms' firing pin stop is the barrel flat at the chamber edge that dents easily. It's much, much smaller in impact area than centerfire hammer or pin stops. Use fired cases as snap caps in rim fires.
Exceptions often apply to double guns whose receivers are a bit on the soft side and are limited to peak pressures of about 40,000 psi. Double rifles and shotguns, primarily. Their receivers are often soft enough to make engraving easier for fine detail. Snap caps are needed.
It would be more accurate to say "with infrequent mishaps and damage". One can easily find examples of modern semi-auto handguns where the breechface is knocked out from the inside from monumental amounts of dryfiring. Google "breechface failure".
Just because a part is designed to take a lot of stress in one direction doesn't mean it can take the same amount of stress applied in the other direction.
It's possible to damage even military firearms with enough dryfiring.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_15/106949_Well__this_sucks__Firing_pin_broke_while_dry_firing_.html
I'm not saying not to dryfire, not even saying that a lot of dryfiring will automatically damage a modern centerfire firearm. But I am saying that a lot of dryfiring can damage a firearm depending on the firearm and on what is meant by "a lot".
Depends on the firearm, for example, I remember that the Ruger SR series had a problem when people dry fired it under some circumstances as do some shotguns, rimfires risk burring the chamber affecting feeding etc., some old milsurp rifles risk century old firing pins breaking that are expensive and difficult to replace, etc. For this, snap caps are very advisable.
If you can use a snapcap, it does cushion the blow but most modern firearms have easily replaceable firing pins/strikers, well designed firing pin/striker channels, and properly treated bolt faces which would not be harmed by even large amounts of dry firing.
If you can use a snapcap, it does cushion the blow but most modern firearms have easily replaceable firing pins/strikers, well designed firing pin/striker channels, and properly treated bolt faces which would not be harmed by even large amounts of dry firing.
jeff-10
Member
In US Army basic training you dry fire or at least used to dry fire an untold number of times with a M16A2. The firing pin was not even remotely damaged and that is how the Army teaches basic rifle marksmanship. I think they called it the dime and washer drill or something like that.
Personally I only use snap caps in revolvers. Definitely can't see using them in a striker fired pistol.
Personally I only use snap caps in revolvers. Definitely can't see using them in a striker fired pistol.
The best answer was "depends on the gun." Even most modern rimfires can be snapped with no problems, but sometimes even a modern .22 will suffer damage to the firing pin and/or the chamber edge. Most military rifles were made to be dry fired and most modern revolvers will be OK. But I once dry fired a high quality DA revolver and the firing pin did not break - the whole top of the hammer broke off! Single actions with the firing pin retained by a cross pin have been known for the firing pin breaking at the groove for the cross pin. That happens often enough that SA's often have a hole at the back of the hammer so the rear of a broken firing pin can be removed.
Jim
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