Dual Citizenship and purchasing a handgun (FL)?

[Headless]

Hi guys. I just purchased my first handgun at a retail outlet - Yay for the S&W model 642 - (had several given as gifts or purchased privately from friends previously) and I was wondering about part of the form I filled out. It asked what countries I am a citizen of, and said 'check all that apply'. As I am both an Irish citizen and an American citizen, I checked the USA box and also checked the OTHER box and filled in Ireland. The clerk (this was at a sports authority) said that in 11 years of selling firearms, he had never before had anybody check the OTHER box and fill in a country.

Is anyone here familiar with how my dual citizenship will effect my approval? I passed the background check they called in; is there additional checking that goes on?
Edit: thanks for fixing the typo in the title, whoever did... I went back to change it but found the subject line frozen

 

[MikeH]

I'm no gun lawyer, but I've never come across any law that prohibits dual citizens from owning firearms. Some states do prohibit non-US-citizens from doing so.

 

[AirForceShooter]

just check US citizen.
It's truthful and what the authorities want to hear.

AFS

 

[Headless]

It said 'check all that apply'; are you suggesting that I lie? A better question perhaps, why should I lie? I'd like to know if I should expect a visit from LEO's just because I happen to have citizenship of 2 countries...Do you know something that I don't? Please enlighten

 

[geekWithA.45]

What form was this? I don't recall seeing that on the 4473.

My daughters are dual citizens, (USA/Russia), so I looked into it a little bit. I did not detect any obstructions or problems w/ dual citizenship anywhere.

(Sidebar: the deal with that is that Russian law has a "once a citizen, always a citizen" policy, and will not recognize any other citizenship a person may have while in Russia. This is a holdover from the Soviet days, wherein they saught to claim jurisdiction over escapees who might have returned for whatever reason.)

 

[Headless]

Hello Geekwitha.45, thanks for your post; glad to hear you didn't find out anything immediately problematic with dual citizenship and firearm ownership.

I feel foolish; but I didn't get the form #. It had basic questions about my identity and state of residence including county, then had a list of 20questions or so including "Are you buying this gun for yourself", "have you ever been convicted of a crime...involving" (felony), "have you ever been convicted of a domestic abuse related crime", "Have you ever been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces", etc.... it was 3 pages long but all 3 pages looked to be one sheet - stuck together permanently... and had all of the information about transfer/sale of firearm for both me and the seller.

 

[mp510]

(Sidebar: the deal with that is that Russian law has a "once a citizen, always a citizen" policy, and will not recognize any other citizenship a person may have while in Russia. This is a holdover from the Soviet days, wherein they saught to claim jurisdiction over escapees who might have returned for whatever reason.)

Shows the ATFE is commie to begin with, sounds like their once and always on MG's.

Actually, I find that intereesting. On the touruist Visa Application for US Citizens, question 1 suggests that it is possible to loose Russian citizenship:

1. Present citizenship (if you formerly had USSR or Russian
citizenship, please indicate when and why you lost it)

 

[AirForceShooter]

I NEVER suggested you lie.
You are a US Citizen.

AFS

 

[Billy_H]

I'm no lawyer so take what I say how you will....

Looking through the Florida laws I can't see anything that specifically talks about dual citizenship. However, Federal law makes provisions for the legal purchase of firearms by legal aliens as long as they have resided in the state for 90 days.

And, in either case I would assume that by virtue of being a citizen of the USA you are entitled to full benefit of all privileges granted.

 

[hksw]

IMO, I think Headless is filling out the form correctly by checking both. Personally, I think I would add a "/dual citizenship" statement after the other country to clarify any ambiguity for any less than up-to-speed BATF representative who may be checking the records.

 

[Chipperman]

If the form says to check "all that apply" and you only check one, that is lying.

 

[MikeH]

Here's something that might be useful in the general area of dual citizenship:
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

Doesn't talk about RKBA, though.

 

[MikeH]

My understanding is that dual citizens are US citizens as far as the US government is concerned. It is not illegal, but it does not change one's rights and obligations either.

So, my personal interpretation would be that Headless' Irish citizenship is not applicable when filling question 14 below:

 

[Headless]

That was exactly the form, Mike. Thanks for your input, all.

I was born here in the U.S. and both of my parents are U.S. citizens, but we lived in Ireland for so long that I was also granted Irish citizenship.
Mike, you're saying that you would not consider my country of citizenship to be both the U.S. and Ireland, even with knowledge that I am a citizen of both countries and have even gone so far as to travel on both my American passport and Irish passport at various times in life?

 

[kbarrett]

The SCOTUS has already decided that a 4473 cannot be used as evidence of a crime, because you are required to fill it out or go to jail.

So I wouldn't worry about how I filled it out.

 

[Headless]

IMO, I think Headless is filling out the form correctly by checking both. Personally, I think I would add a "/dual citizenship" statement after the other country to clarify any ambiguity for any less than up-to-speed BATF representative who may be checking the records.

I considered writing more in that field but was heavily discouraged by the fellow at the counter. Having read here about how finicky filling out these forms is (i even wrote "pounds" after my weight rather than "lb's"), i decided against any extraneous text at all.

 

[Headless]

I NEVER suggested you lie.
You are a US Citizen.

AFS

Yes, I most certainly am, but I am also an Irish citizen, and they didn't ask if i was a US citizen, they asked my country of citizenship (list/check more than one, if applicable). I suppose the question is, does having citizenship in more than one country make it applicable - and what would make my Irish citizenship not applicable?

 

[geekWithA.45]

Actually, I find that intereesting. On the touruist Visa Application for US Citizens, question 1 suggests that it is possible to loose Russian citizenship:

Remember, there are two jurisdictions in play here. It is possible for my daughters to renounce their Russian citizenship when they turn 18. (I'm not sure what the magic spell of Russian citizenship renunciation is). The US will accept that renunciation, the Russian authorities will not.

As far as I can tell, the US is primarily concerned with whether you're a citizen, or not. Any significance another nation places upon the facts of one's birth or residence and so on appear to be completely irrelevant, at least as far as the US is concerned.

 

[MikeH]

Mike, you're saying that you would not consider my country of citizenship to be both the U.S. and Ireland, even with knowledge that I am a citizen of both countries and have even gone so far as to travel on both my American passport and Irish passport at various times in life?

My point is that, as far as the US government is concerned, your Irish citizenship has no effect on your legal rights and obligations. Therefore, it is not applicable when it comes to filling the 4473.

If the form specifically asks whether you are a dual citizen or not, that'd be another story.

Anyway, it will be interesting to hear from the horse's mouth.

 

[baranjhn]

Immigration and nationality laws of the United States do not recognize "dual citizenship". Either you are a United States citizen or you are not. It's that simple. Black and white.

John

 

[Headless]

Interesting...If it has no effect, I wonder why they would have a separate box for OTHER country citizenship and go so far as to say 'check all that are applicable'. Perhaps it's only applicable if i'm a citizen of a country 'in bad standing'? Hm. Curious.

Thanks for your post, John. That's how I was lead to perceive it too; the form made me wonder, though.

 

[MikeH]

It'd be highly untypical for government agencies to talk to each other ...

 

[GT]

baranjhn is basically right; all this talk of dual citizenship is more or less bogus.

This is especially so when you become a citizen of the US.

So when someone who has been naturalized a citizen of the USA and says he has "dual citizenship" (cf. Schwartzenegger) he is a liar.
The one exception seems to be the Russian concept of being a Russian until you die as far as Russia is concerned. But as mentioned that is a Russian concept not an American one.

The idea of becoming a citizen of a country just because you lived there without renouncing your US citizenship is shaky at best.

You are either a citizen of the USA or you are not - whatever you, the Irish, the Russians, the BATFE etc. might want to think.

G


Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

 

[Biker]

I have to agree with GT.

Biker

 

[geekWithA.45]

Well, just to complicate the matter, the general thing is that accepting citizenship in another nation is considered one of the ways you can lose your US citizenship.

It's poorly documented, and even less talked about, but there seem to be a very few privileged nations whose citizenship is tolerated as a spare. Israel and Ireland are the only ones I know of for certain. In the case of Israel, I believe it's because of their policy of automatic citizenship for any returning Jew. Perhaps if headless could give us a little more detail in how he came across his Irish citizenship, it might be a similair thing, where a nation decides your a citizen for you.

The other complication is that while the naturalization oath forswears all foreign princes and potentates, that's NOT the ONLY way to obtain US citizenship.

Facts of birth have an impact: I've had several friends born overseas to US parents. The child is automatically a US citizen. The nation of birth also considers them a citizen, as well. In these cases, the person is expected to select their citizenship when they turn 18.

Facts of adoption have an impact: Thanks to some legislation in 2001, my daughters automatically became citizens upon arrival on US soil. Ironically, their US passports, which documented that fact, arrived before their greencards did. (Greencards are shipped due to the previous method of attaining citizenship for adoptees: they were automatically granted resident alien status, and the parents had to petition for their kid's citizenship)