Dumb Headspace Question

[Patocazador]

I just got a 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer which are infamous for excessive headspace. I have been reloading since the 70s but still don't know "all there is" about reloading.

I don't have Go, No Go gauges to check the headspace.

If I fire new cases and then only neck size afterwards, will this solve any headspace problems for a bottleneck case if they exist?

It seems to me that it will but it's a problem I haven't faced before.

I appreciate any responses.

 

[Bcwitt]

A set of feeler gauges from an auto parts store can be helpful.

 

[osprey176]

Neck sizing brass from the same chamber should take care of a long chamber,but you’ll have to bump the shoulders back after a few firings. I’d check them with a paper clip each time to make sure you aren’t stretching them too much.

 

[Bcwitt]

The a 357 mag case & put it on the shoulder of the other case. Measure w caliper then do the same after firing. If the difference is more then .010, you likely have an excess of space.

 

[FROGO207]

I take care of this problem by partia body full length resizing every time. Set the die to resize minimally. As long asyou can close the bolt on a resized brass you should be good to go. Yes check for incepient case head seperation as well. No expensive tools needed.

 

[Swampman]

I'd suggest that for the first firing you seat the bullets to "jam" into the rifling (remember to reduce your load accordingly). That'll help keep your cases from stretching from the first shot.

 

[swg1]

When resizing your fired cases, test them in your rifle as you set the resizing die. Once the bolt closes, you’ve sized the cases for your chamber. Set the lock ring on the die and reload happily forevermore.

Don’t just blindly screw the die down to contact the shell-holder. The only reason to do that would be if you had a number of 6.5x54 rifles, a surplus of brass and were too lazy to do it correctly for each.

 

[redcon1]

If I fire new cases and then only neck size afterwards, will this solve any headspace problems for a bottleneck case if they exist?

It seems to me that it will but it's a problem I haven't faced before.

It seems like it probably will but I would measure a case with a Hornady headspace gauge before and after firing it and see just how much it stretches. Then I'd just bump that shoulder back .001" and/or neck size it (which is not something I ever do since I pretty much only load for SA firearms). Of course, I'm not sure how much stretch would be considered acceptable and how much would be considered excessive. I'd still want actual numbers to look at and ponder though and, as has already been suggested, I'd be looking for signs of incipient case head separation with a paperclip at a minimum. If I was truly nervous, I'd bisect a case and look at the inside of it under some good light and a magnifying glass of some kind for a ring. I'm a rookie compared to some of these guys though but that is what I would do.

 

[AJC1]

Take a fired case, start to decap the primer and stop short. Install in your rifle and close the bolt. Now measure primer to neck datum and that's your headspace.

 

[swg1]

I honestly wouldn’t fret. Make brass that fits your chamber. Good to go. I have a 1903 as well. And over a hundred other old odd—balls. If the brass fits the chamber, you are good. Make the shoulder to breech- face a slight crush fit and you’ll have no problems.

If in doubt on a first firing, make a slight false shoulder (neck up to 277 or 284 and then size the neck back down until you get the false shoulder).

These are all the same techniques used for “improved” cartridges. Nothing odd or new here.

“Excessive headspace” isn’t an issue if you reload for the rifle in question.

 

[dh1633pm]

Now measure primer to neck datum and that's your headspace.

Makes sense what your saying and seems easy enough. Where is "neck datum"?

 

[AJC1]

Makes sense what your saying and seems easy enough. Where is "neck datum"?

View attachment 1062818 View attachment 1062818

On this case it's at the .0400 diameter.

 

[243winxb]

If I fire new cases and then only neck size afterwards, will this solve any headspace problems for a bottleneck case if they exist?

It may. But excessive headspace may cause case head separations, on the very first firing. Or damage the brass enough from stretching, that the fired brass can NOT be loaded again.

 

[dh1633pm]

On this case it's at the .0400 diameter.View attachment 1062832

I thought that's what you were saying, but wanted to make sure. Thank you for answering.

 

[Patocazador]

UPDATE: I tried everyone's suggestions here and want to thank you all. The end result is there is NO excessive headspace in this rifle's chamber.

1" groups @ 50 yards = big grins on my part.

I still can't believe that a 119 year-old rifle that is notorious for excessive headspace is this good. Obviously, I am thrilled.

 

[Blue68f100]

UPDATE: I tried everyone's suggestions here and want to thank you all. The end result is there is NO excessive headspace in this rifle's chamber.

1" groups @ 50 yards = big grins on my part.

I still can't believe that a 119 year-old rifle that is notorious for excessive headspace is this good. Obviously, I am thrilled.

Good to hear.

 

[rfwobbly]

The a 357 mag case & put it on the shoulder of the other case. Measure w caliper then do the same after firing. If the difference is more then .010, you likely have an excess of space.

I like this statement.

"Head spacing" in a bottleneck rifle cartridge has nothing to do with where the bullet or rifling is, and everything to do with where the shoulder of the case is located. This is so that the chamber pressure is effectively sealed off from the rear of the chamber, and thus the shooter's face.

Here's a diagram, shamelessly stolen from this very web forum...


.

 

[FROGO207]

Well it's nice to know that every so often a guy ends up with a good one! Glad it worked out so well there.

 

[Varminterror]

Headspace can be checked - crudely - without firing a shot. Adding layers of tape to a cartridge which closes freely until the “taller” cartridge no longer closes is a simple means of confirming whether further investigation is needed.

A reloader can also expand a false shoulder into the neck and find the actual needed length of the shoulder-neck junction.

If excessive headspace IS found in question, this same false shoulder technique can allow the cases to be fireformed to the new chamber without any risk of future case head separation. Jamming bullets will work as well. From then on, the shoulder should only be bumped back 2-3 thousandths in the FL die, same as all cartridges. Confirmation of case head support may be needed - which can be achieved by sectioning a false shouldered case at the case head and inspecting the overlapping support when chambered.

Less risk of immediate or future case head separation, better brass life, and no go/no-go rental fees. Just like reloading any other rifle from undersized virgin brass.

 

[twarr1]

Google ‘Hatchers Notebook’ by Gen. Julian Hatcher.