Durability of older Colt .357 Magnums

.455_Hunter

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The long-term durability of the S&W N, L, K and J-frame .357 Magnum families are frequently discussed, but what about the older Colts? How do the 3-5-7 and original Pythons stand-up to extended shooting with 158 and 125 gr jacketed loads? What about the various Troopers, Peacekeepers and Lawmans? The King Cobras?
Thanks for your insight and experiences.
 
I can only tell you about the "Peacekeeper", the Single Action Army. The question is often asked if full power 357 magnum loads can be fired in a Single Action Army. If you look at the size of a SAA cylinder, it is roughly the same diameter as a N frame S&W revolver. That means there will be approximately the same amount of steel between chambers at their narrowest point as in a big N frame Smith such as a Model 27. Plenty of steel for full house 357 Magnum loads. Also, unlike a K frame S&W such as the Model 19 there is no thinning at the bottom of the SAA forcing cone, usually the cause of split forcing cones in a K frame 357 Magnum. The SAA was first chambered for 357 Magnum in 1935, the same year S&W developed the cartridge. The SAA is a big revolver, and can easily handle 357 Magnum cartridges. Whether or not the shooter can is a different question.
 
I can only tell you about the "Peacekeeper", the Single Action Army. The question is often asked if full power 357 magnum loads can be fired in a Single Action Army. If you look at the size of a SAA cylinder, it is roughly the same diameter as a N frame S&W revolver. That means there will be approximately the same amount of steel between chambers at their narrowest point as in a big N frame Smith such as a Model 27. Plenty of steel for full house 357 Magnum loads. Also, unlike a K frame S&W such as the Model 19 there is no thinning at the bottom of the SAA forcing cone, usually the cause of split forcing cones in a K frame 357 Magnum. The SAA was first chambered for 357 Magnum in 1935, the same year S&W developed the cartridge. The SAA is a big revolver, and can easily handle 357 Magnum cartridges. Whether or not the shooter can is a different question.

Thank you. I was focusing on the DA guns, but the SAA/Peacemaker is absolutely worthy of inclusion. The "Peacekeeper" is officially an 80's DA variant.
 
Colt revolvers have a fundamental issue: timing. The Colt revolver mechanism locks up as the hammer falls. The S&W cylinder locks up when the hammer is cocked. If you quickly cock a Colt, the momentum of the cylinder will rotate the cylinder into battery, but the mechanism is more sensitive to wear than a Smith.

Recently I have read articles poopooing on older Colt Pythons. How times have changed, I have kept a couple of older in print articles where the Colt Python was glorified as best ever, and best that will ever be. Now the old Colts are unreliable and inaccurate. Of course the new Colt Pythons, they are the best ever and best that will ever be. Such is advertising.

The recent article on Colt Pythons claimed the older mechanisms will get out of time within 5000 rounds. That may be if the shooter is firing full house magnums. I don't know how much longer it can go with 38 Special target loads. I did have a few seconds asking a ten times PPC National Champ about Colts. He claimed he met only one man who used a Colt in PPC Competition, and it is probable, if that man was not his own gunsmith, that Colt was not used long. It was all due to the Colt's propensity to shoot out of time.

I am very sure that Colt will not work on old Pythons, without a doubt they sold all their part inventory during one bankruptcy or another. And, the gunsmith has to understand how a Colt mechanism works, and how to fit a part. Where are you going to find one of those gunsmiths? I suspect they are about as common as watchmakers who can fix and clean mechanical watch movements. I remember when there were lots of watchmakers, then they got old, and now finding one in your state is hard.

I have a Colt Trooper MKIII, the star ratchet has movement, and I have tried tightening it with a punch, but that has not held. I am worried about hitting the thing too hard because that might break something. Still the pistol is accurate and it does go bang. It does not shoot to point of aim with full power 158 grain bullets, it shoots too high. I cannot find a drop in taller front sight. Issues like this are common with half century out of production firearms. Parts were common about 50 years ago, and there were gunsmiths familiar with the things. But now, they are a speciality item.

Even Ruger pistols have their issues. I wanted parts for my Ruger MKII, Volquartsen is no longer making MKII parts. Ruger, they have limited parts in stock. Won't be long before Ruger is out of parts.

Only buy an old Colt if you want an old Colt and you don't plan to shoot thousands of rounds through the thing. Understand, the things are at the point where they are logistically unsustainable.
 
A question related to old revolver durability is whether you can find someone competent to bring them back to life when they go out of time or a hand-fitted part breaks.

From what I've seen first-hand, which admittedly isn't huge (25 or so examples), the durability of Colt's action is no better or worse than many European service revolvers from the late 1800s. Those suckers tend to be pretty sturdy, but good luck finding a qualified smith when something goes pear-shaped. IMO, that's where S&W revolvers have their biggest edge in durability.

One plus to Colt's DA system is the clockwise cylinder rotation.
 
I read an article on-line about the new Pythons and the author talked about how much he loved his over 20 year old model that had something like 50K rounds through it. He also said it had been retimed a whole bunch of times and the new model was built much simpler and more robust.
 
I read an article on-line about the new Pythons and the author talked about how much he loved his over 20 year old model that had something like 50K rounds through it. He also said it had been retimed a whole bunch of times and the new model was built much simpler and more robust.

The "owner" quoted in that article claimed to have fired 71,000 rounds and retimed his Python 14 times. That's about 5000 rounds between each retime.
 
Again, I shot a New Python last Monday at PSA range in Denver NC, 50
rd of target .357. Sights was off and wiggling, the gun bind up on one cylinder got stuck consistently.

I’ll probably still buy one for the Cool Factor but not until Gen 3 or 4

Next try, Modern Smith 686 & Ruger GP100!
 
The "owner" quoted in that article claimed to have fired 71,000 rounds and retimed his Python 14 times. That's about 5000 rounds between each retime.
I knew it was a lot, but I couldn't remember the numbers. Thanks!
 
What's the plus?

Clockwise rotation with a crane that opens to the left means the hand or pawl or whatever puts working pressure on the crane inward and toward the frame as it rotates. When the first DA Colt models with cranes were introduced (New Army and New Navy models), they featured counterclockwise rotation. These models were found to go out of time prematurely.

I used to have one of these in .41 Colt -- from the front, you could actually see the crane flexing away from the frame each time the cylinder rotated.

By changing to clockwise cylinder rotation, Colt's DAs get by with just a single cylinder locking mechanism at the rear.

S&Ws counterclockwise cylinder rotation is addressed with additional locking mechanisms forward of the cylinder.

As to whether cylinder rotation direction really is a significant plus, I recall Bob Dunlap saying this during the AGI Armorer's Course for S&W Revolvers.

 
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I did have a few seconds asking a ten times PPC National Champ about Colts. He claimed he met only one man who used a Colt in PPC Competition, and it is probable, if that man was not his own gunsmith, that Colt was not used long. It was all due to the Colt's propensity to shoot out of time.

I guess me and my three friends were beneath his notice, then. We shot Pythons regularly in the "Pre L Frame" days and ours held up well with wadcutters and ball. I later shot mine in IPSC with .38 +P+ Major loads, but only for a couple of seasons. Then traded a foreign automatic for a 4" Python for IDPA.

But I have "modernized" and shoot Smiths most of my revolver time.
I will occasionally take a Python out when a colleague is shooting a New Python.

Smith and Ruger are sturdier, but I am reading a discouraging number of accounts of poor quality.
The internet has gotten me scared of about any new gun for fear of needing some of that "good customer service" where they sell you a defective product and expect you to think they are doing you a favor by fixing it. Maybe.
 
The original Python and other Colt's needed periodic routine maintenance, depending on how they were shot.
Do a lot of fast DA shooting and the hand that rotates the cylinder requires maintenance by stretching it (ONE time only), or replacing it.
Complaining about that routine maintenance is like complaining that an expensive sports car needs tires and spark plugs more often then a regular car.
It was not at all uncommon for a cop to be issued a Colt revolver in the academy and continue using it until he retired.
Back then they understood the need for routine maintenance and made sure the gun was maintained.

As for strength, the older Colt's had larger frames and cylinders then the S&W "K" frames and were extremely strong.
All the medium frame Colt DA revolvers used the same frame and action, so all are equally strong, for which you get better average accuracy because of the old Colt "Bank Vault" action that locks the cylinder in alignment with the barrel.
This design dates to the 1890's and was not designed for modern Magnum level ammo.
Colt managed to make it in the Magnum by using better steels and higher level heat treating.
They stand up to normal shooting very well but don't take abusive treatment.
S&W had the same issues with their "K" frame, again a 1890's design with better steel and heat treating, but again, just not able to stand up to large numbers of hot Magnum ammo,

The later Colt's like the Mark III, Mark V, and King Cobra were specifically designed for unlimited shooting with Magnum ammo.
Master gunsmith Jerry Kuhnhausen said these later Colt's were probably the strongest medium frame DA revolvers ever built, and they don't tend to go out of time unless seriously abused.
These later Colt's had much more massive frames and cylinders, all heat treated to high levels.
They just didn't have the nicer single action trigger and not quite the same accuracy.

The New Python and Anaconda have the best of both: A much stronger action and frame, made of a new type of stainless steel, and with the old type Bank Vault lock up in a modern transfer bar safety/ignition action.
These are extremely tough and strong revolvers with none of the problems of the old Colt's.
These new Colt's were designed for unlimited shooting with no weakness.

The only complaint most people have about the New Pythons is the lesser single action trigger.
This is a result of having to pass abusive drop tests in California and some other states.
Several custom gunsmiths are doing action work that gives the new models trigger as good, if not better then the old Python.
 
I have a colt 3-5-7 that was my father's. He shot it a fair amount, but I do not know the round count. It is still very accurate with pretty much anything I put through it. That being said, I do not put a lot of full power magnum loads through it simply for the fact that parts are expensive and must be hand fitted. Not really worried, as much as just being careful with a family heirloom. If you own one, I say go ahead and shoot it but limit your full power loads. If you don't own one, and are looking for a shooter for full house loads, you might want to get a less expensive alternative which is easier to find parts for . Don't get me wrong, I love mine. Just trying to be objective.
 
Master gunsmith Jerry Kuhnhausen said these later Colt's were probably the strongest medium frame DA revolvers ever built, and they don't tend to go out of time unless seriously abused.
Since Kuhnhausen -- and other experts of the time -- were pre-internet, few these days know the actual facts about the firearms of those times, knowing only the revisionist history.
 
I can only speak of my 1986 first gen 6" Colt King Cobra. Its been one of my best revolvers, has many thousands of rounds through it (lost count years ago) and it hasn't ever needed any servicing. As a matter of fact, when I load up my range bag with three or sometimes four handguns, that King Cobra always makes it into the bag. As far as if it ever goes out of timing, Colt will still service them along with many other gun smiths, so I don't worry about it.

Same thing with my classic first generation Jeep Wrangler YJ with the old AMC 4.0 inline 6 motor . The young techs at the dealerships and other shops can't work on them because no one there can repair anything without a computer diagnostics telling them what's wrong, and what to replace. But there are still a lot of old school mechanics around who love to work on these old Jeeps, to them, they're easy machines to work on, so it's never been an issue.
 
I have only owned one Python and didn't keep it long enough to have any trouble with it. A person wanted it worse than I did so I sold it to him. This was back in the '70's and I seem to remember that they had a reputation of being more fragile than most other makes like S&W. I preferred my S&W model 19 and Dan Wesson over the Colt.
 
Thread needs a pic of a .357…

I concur :cool:

KC_013122_ULCurl.jpg
 
Colt will no longer provide any service for the older models. made before about 2000.
There are two master lever pistolsmiths that will do service, Frank Glenn and Heffron Precision.
If you can afford it the Colt custom Shop will, BUT, they are NOT affiliated in any way with Colt Firearms or the COLT Custom Shop.

Some Colt Magnums..........


357.jpg PYTHON 4 INCH LEFT.JPG Python 6 Left.jpg
 
I bought a new Colt Trooper MKIII 6" in 1979. I shot it a bunch, mostly with factory 357 Mag ammo. It had some MIM parts, like the trigger, and I ended up breaking a couple of triggers in the pistol during the time I had it. I sold it off when the 586 came out and bought one of those. I eventually shot the 586 out of time and got rid of it, too.
 
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