EAA Witness - CZ 75 spin off

[Dirt farmer]

Did you happen to catch Tamara Keel's article in NRA Shooting Illustrated March 2108, Handguns section titled: "C-Zed Revisited"? She talks about the CZ 75 as well as copies by Italian manufacturer Tanfoglio known as European American Armory (EAA) Witness series of pistols. I bought on in the 90's and it is my favorite gun to shoot for fun. She mentions that they are "accurate, trouble-free, and easy to shoot.... and stupid easy to shoot fast".
My EAA Witness has the compact length barrel with a thread on compensator, which makes the whole barrel length standard length. The compensator keeps the barrel tip down when shooting which makes even easier to shoot fast. Again, I'm talking about having fun with friends shooting pistols, everyone like to shoot my gun. I thought I'd start this thread to see if there's any others with comments about EAA Witness?

 

[Old Dog]

Tanfoglio is to pistols as Pininfarina is to Italian sports cars ... The Witness is a worthy pistol. Over the years, I've owned the TZ-75, the Springfield Armory P-9, the EAA Witness, IMI/IWI Jericho and the original, the CZ-75 -- but regrettably, never the Swiss Sphinx. Loved each and every one ... (well, the P-9 did have a few issues, but it looked cool and was the only CZ-75 clone available at the time) ...

 

[Tallball]

My Tanfoglio CZ clones are among my favorite handguns. I own five of them.

 

[Everready73]

The Witness line is great. I have a Cz75 and EAA SARb6p currently, but will probably pick up a Witness at some point. The EAA is my truck/beater gun and has been extremely reliable for about 3k rounds now. I haven't had one issue yet. The only downside with the EAA is aftermarket and replacement parts, they are pretty much non-existent

 

[kBob]

The only thing that kept me from buying a TZ75 back when they were new was the slide mounted safety they then had.....to be honest I wanted one as a practice pistol to keep the round count low on my original CZ75 I imported as a service man. There were darned few CZ's in the country then and it did not look then like any more were coming.

When the first "target model" came out it had both a frame mounted safety and the slide safety.....sort of Bren Ten-ish but thankfully not that stupid push through the Bren Ten had, but still more clutter and things to go wrong.

The only thing that stopped me from buying one of the compacts when they finally got the safety right and made usable short and shortened C75s was that I was in grad school and cafefully scanning the ground for dropped change to buy ammo with and had no money for a new gun.

I did encourage others to get them.

-kBob

 

[MachIVshooter]

Did you happen to catch Tamara Keel's article in NRA Shooting Illustrated March 2108, Handguns section titled: "C-Zed Revisited"?

I didn't. My time machine is down for repairs

The Tanfoglios have been imported by several manufacturers, and now we have the Turkish Sarsilmaz copies as well, which seem to be pretty good.

The 1911 dominates here in the US, but through the rest of the world, the Tanfoglio is well known and renowned in competitive shooting. Eric Grauffel is a multiple time world champion IPSC shooter sponsored by Tanfoglio.

I personally own 2, a 10mm Compact and a 10mm Limited. I have a third if you count the Baby Eagle 9mm, which is made by Tanfoglio but finished by IWI (IMI at the time I bought)

 

[ATLDave]

I use a Tanfo' as my USPSA competition pistol. They are quite common/popular in that sport. In the last World Shoot, both Production (DA/SA guns) and Standard (iron-sighted, higher capacity, major power factor guns - lots of 2011 double-stack 1911's) division were won by guys shooting Tanfo's. And 2nd place in Open (optics and compensators allowed) was also shooting a Tanfo'.

It's always funny to me how, outside the competition world, these guns are seen as either inexpensive knock-offs or oddballs; but in the competition world, where people routinely drop $2-4K on a gun and shoot many tens of thousands of rounds per year and have their performance objectively measured, they are widely used. Of course, the competition-oriented models have some differences from the most basic "Witness" line, but it's all the same "platform," as the tacticool kids like to say.

 

[dh1633pm]

When I lived in NM back in the 90's, I had one in 40 cal. Sold it when I left the state. It was an excellent pistol, very reliable.

 

[Jim Watson]

Are there TZ tuners out there doing the type of work Angus and Matthew and David do on CZs?

 

[ATLDave]

There are both gunsmiths and a few prolific aftermarket parts makers.

 

[Dirt farmer]

I "thick-fingered" the date what a dope, March 2018 of course...

 

[Walt Sherrill]

EAA is an importer who has worked with Tanfoglio to have various Tanfoglio-made guns made to EAA specs. I've had a number of Witness handguns over the years, all used, and I've been pleased with all of them.

The only problems with Witness handguns has been EAA customer service, which had -- for a number of years -- a horrible reputation. I don't know if the stink is still there, or not, (For a while the 10mm and .45 models were having frame and slide problems, but a minor redesign seemed to fix the problem -- but EAA/Witness lost a bunch of customers because they (EAA) blamed the frame issues on too-hot handloads, when most of the folks with the problems didn't handload.

Out of the box, most Witnesses have better triggers than most of the metal-framed CZs, but after a while the difference is not noticeable. About the only things that interchange between a CZ-pattern Tanfoglio-made gun are the magazins -- everything else tends to be quite difference, despite the fact they look (and feel) a lot alike. The grip size of the large frame Tanfoglio/Witness guns are slightly smaller than the large-frame CZs.

Used, I think CZs hold their price a bit better than the other CZ-pattern guns, but the difference isn't great.

 

[bnolsen]

Unfortunately for me my 2002 & 2003 wonderfinish compact and full sized 10mm pistols aren't reliable enough for carry, certainly not the compact (rounds sometimes dive). I have 40 barrels for them both too. The triggers are amazing, the natural pointing is amazing. When my finances are morre stable I may get a sprinco recoil system for the compact just to see if that fixes things. Perhaps I should check into the mag springs as well...

 

[greyling22]

I have a 9mm elite match. Fantastic gun. only bad thing about it is that it is a large frame gun and the original mags were garbage. But in 2010(?) mecgar started making mags for tangfolio and it fixed the problem. My only experience with EAA customer service was when I called and said my mags were problematic. I mailed them 3 old mags (on my dime) and they shipped me back 3 new mecgars.

Aftermarket support is limited. henning makes grips and parts, and dawson precision makes sights.

 

[Davek1977]

I inherited a Tanfoglio TA-90 a year or so ago. I was immediately impressed upon shooting it the first time, and quickly became my favorite 9mm....easy to shoot, accurate, and just plain fun. I only had a ten round mag for it until recently, when I found an 18 rounder that fit it

 

[dfariswheel]

I first owned a FIE TZ-75 with the slide mounted safety. Good quality and always worked, but I wanted the original CZ frame mounted safety.

I owed an early Action Arms AT-84 made in Switzerland from Tanflogio parts.
Unfortunately it was a jammer that couldn't be fixed.

Next up I owned a Springfield P9 imported from Tanfoglio. It was one of the best guns I ever owned.
I sold it and ordered a late 80's EAA Witness .45 autos. This is one of the rare actual stainless steel guns imported.
Only the slide and frame are stainless, everything else is carbon steel.
It's a great gun that's never had any problems.

Currently the new EAA Witness models have had some changes to the slide and frame and I just don't like them like the older model design.

A newer gun that's getting great reviews are the Turkish made Tri-Star pistols. At least two of these are virtual copies of the early CZ-75.
Apparently, Tanfoglio worked with Turkish gun makers and the Tri-Star seem to have features of both the Tanfoglio and the original CZ-75.
The slides, frames, and barrels are forged steel, or an aluminum frame model.
These Tri-Star guns are said to be very good quality and are considered to be a "Best buy".

With any of the CZ's or various clones, Cajun Armory offers high grade CZ type gunsmithing, including installation of their trigger assembly that puts the trigger much farther back in the trigger guard for a much easier reach.

https://cajungunworks.com/

My EAA stainless steel .45 Auto. Accurate, reliable, easy to use. It pains me to say it, but I can use it easier then I can my Colt autos. I'm right-handed but shoot pistol left-handed.
I have a problem with my trigger finger bumping the slide stop on the 1911's up under recoil and locking the slide back.
Also, under recoil my hand tend to push the safety up enough to interfere with the slide operation.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I owed an early Action Arms AT-84 made in Switzerland from Tanflogio parts.

You may be right about the Tanfoglio parts, but it's my understanding that the AT-84 was a true clone, made by ITM under license. (The Czechs would sell rights to the "neutral" Swiss.) ITM later, with the AT-84s, used the Tanfoglio pattern (or, perhaps, the parts) for the guns they sold. I have had several AT-84s models, including a custom AT-84s, supposedly made by Jim Boland, a 90's "name" IPSC gunsmith. That custom AT-84s is a match for the several Sphinx 2000 models I've owned, and has a better trigger! (I have no proof that JB built the gun, no identify markings on the gun that I can find, but it incorporates features seen on his guns, and it's sweet and it may be the last gun I ever sell if financial need ever forces my hand.)

When Turkey first worked with CZ, CZ made the 75B for the Turkish military. (A Turkish contract overrun gun was my first CZ!) Turkish gun firms later got licensing rights to build their own versions of the guns, using the Tanfoglio design skipping CZ altogether. Unlike the CZ -- which was embargoed by the West until the fall of the Soviet Union, the Tanfoglio design was a patent-protected design, and both Tanfoglio and Turkey bypassed CZ. They apparently got the design from a former CZ engineer who defected to the West with the design specs. (That's the story, anyway. I'm pretty sure Tanfoglio never legally got the rights to build the design from CZ.)

I think Israel took a similar route with their CZ-pattern guns -- and there are several.

My favorite non-CZ "CZ" was an ASAI ONE-PRO .45 that I foolishly let go because the trigger was too light. (I later realized I just needed to install a stiffer hammer spring -- but that was early in my shooting experience and I had not learned how to deal with some gun issues.) The ASAI had the smoothest, lightest DA trigger I've ever experienced in a factory (un-modified) gun, but I would unintentionally double-tap with it from time to time. It, like the Tanfoglio .45s and 10mm guns, fit my hand better than the laster CZ-97B. (For a while I had a CZ-97B, a Witness Sport Longslide in .45, and the ASAI all at the same -- and the magazines were interchangeable.

I kept the Sport Longslide longer than any of them... (I tend to gravitate to 9mms rather than .45s -- but have a pretty nice Springfield XDm Competition in .45 that I like a lot, and a Glock 37 and Glock 38 [.45 GAP] that are favorites. They have some custom parts, and the 37 has a .40 conversion barrel, too.)

 

[hemiram]

My 3 Tanfoglios are my favorite guns. I've had many of them over the years, going back to the FIE days. My first was a full sized 9mm, blued that was really nice, but I sold it to buy a Beretta 92. Later on, I bought a .45 in Wonder finish, another great gun. At present, I have the 3 Tanfo guns, a Jericho, a Sar K2P and a CM9 Gen 2. I've never had a "real" CZ yet. Soon, I will, probably a P-07.

 

[someguy2800]

I've been wanting an elite match 9mm for about 6 years but never got to shoot one.

 

[greyling22]

I've been wanting an elite match 9mm for about 6 years but never got to shoot one.

They are really nice. Frame is bigger than a cz, so if you have small hands you may not be happy, but trigger is nicer than any factory CZ I have handled other than a tactical sport model. The older ones without the rail have a supersight rear sight which I like a lot better than the more recent models. However, I just looked at a new elite match at budsguns and they want nearly $800!?! Buying a used cz75 and having Cajun gun works parts put in it makes more sense. They were a better deal at $600 or less.

 

[someguy2800]

They are really nice. Frame is bigger than a cz, so if you have small hands you may not be happy, but trigger is nicer than any factory CZ I have handled other than a tactical sport model. The older ones without the rail have a supersight rear sight which I like a lot better than the more recent models. However, I just looked at a new elite match at budsguns and they want nearly $800!?! Buying a used cz75 and having Cajun gun works parts put in it makes more sense. They were a better deal at $600 or less.

Yeah I just recently checked into the pricing again and was seeing them for 800-900. I remember when I first saw them you could find them in the 500's which I thought looked like a real good price. At 800+ though, umm no thanks.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The large-framed models that were selling in the $500 range were not the same level of gun as the ones now selling for quite a bit more The newer ones, which are arguably a level up, are more refined weapons, better suited to gun games, hunting, etc.

 

[SharpDog]

I've got both the elite match 10 MM and a carry model 10 MM. After-market red fiber optic front sights and .40 S&W conversion kits on all:

 

[HankC]

The only problems with Witness handguns has been EAA customer service, which had -- for a number of years -- a horrible reputation.

Another Tanfoglio importer is Rock Island (Armscor USA), they have Tanfoglio small frame model, as MAP series in steel frame, and life time warranty. I should say the one I have is the small frame, not sure if still the case today. RIA customer service is one of the best in industry. Small fame shares CZ 75 (9mm) mags as well. I have an early TZ75 Custom Special, an EAA (round top) and a RIA (square top) Tanfoglios, All small frame to share mags with my CZ75B. TZ75 is the best shooter, well maybe because it is a custom fit gun (custom special model) while my EAA and RIA Tanfoglios are not shot much yet and may wear in. My CZ75B also shoots great but the double roll pin firing pin stop is hard to remove/install when you need to clean the firing pin channel, Tanfoglio has the firing pin stop end plate design like 1911 and the original CZ75. CZ75B cheap it out by changed to roll pin.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Another Tanfoglio importer is Rock Island (Armscor USA), they have Tanfoglio small frame model, as MAP series in steel frame, and life time warranty.

It's good to know that if you have a Tanfoglio (rather than a Witness) you might have options, but I doubt that RIA will honor the Witness (EAA) Warranty -- and warranty problems were once the issue. A number of guns weren't covered by EAA when frames or slides cracked -- and that resulted in a number of very angry owners, and others who were suddenly very wary of EAA.

Th0se warranty issues all happened some years ago, so it may no longer be a problem. (I've heard that the senior EAA manager responsible for those negative situations -- who was supposedly a member of the family that owned and ran the businesss -- is no longer in that role.)