Early 20th Century: big rifles and small handguns?

[MatthewVanitas]

This is a completely random observation, just seeing if anyone else if getting the same impression that I am.


When I look over the early 20th Century, I get the general impression that, compared to now, handguns were smaller and rifles were bigger. The large rifles always struck me as odd, because it seems that people tended to be smaller before modern medicine and high-calorie food. I'm 5'6", reasonably small for a male, and a lot of early 20thC. rifles, especially military models, feel like telephone poles to me. Civilian models were also rather clunky.

Similarly: setting aside micro-compact CCW pistols, most handguns these days are pretty darn big, which vexes me. I'd imagine similar for other small folks.

Examples:


RIFLES:

--16" and 18" bolt-action rifles seem pretty uncommon until the 1960s (Remington 660, etc). Nowadays we have Rem Model Seven, Ruger carbines, Savage and Steyr "Scout", etc. Even the LOP seems long for me on older Model 70s and the like.

--M1 Garand was huge, the Yugo SKS is a clunker. The M4gery is small and slick, the KT SU-16 almost levitates out of your hands. The SOCOM 16 is our "modern Garand", and it's nice and tight. M1 Carbine is a notable exception: if you can't hack an M1 Carbine, maybe guns aren't your thing.

--The Winchester 37 and Marlin 39A were promoted as great rifles for teaching kids. They're about as big as a dang kid! Now a half-dozen folks build miniature .22 rifles, Ruger makes .22 carbines, and Marlin used to make the lovely 75C (hint, hint).


HANDGUNS:

-- I saw one of those Rossi/Interarms .32Long revolvers in a pawnshop: nobody makes anything like that now; notably smaller than a J-frame. The I-frame is long-gone, the J-frame is almost exclusively used for snubbies (mostly aluminum CCW pieces). Kit guns are few and far between. Even the K-frame has been thrown over for the L-frame.

-- Semi-autos are a little more complicated, since CCW has created many micro-pistols. But there's not much in between: I'd like to see something like a "full-size" pistol for "small-size" people. The Kahr K9 is a good example. I picked up a Modele 1935 service pistol recently, and would kill for something similar in 9mm. Nice and slim, single stack, SA. I was racking my brains, and can't think of anything that's single-stack, all-metal, and in a decent caliber without being too clunky. Beretta would have gotten it right with their single-stack compact version of the 92, but the sucker is barely thinner than their double-stack.


Anyway, enough ranting for now. Does anybody else concur with my statement: "we used to have big rifles and small pistols, now we have small rifles and big pistols" ?

-MV

 

[Srigs]

You are correct.

On semi-autos, You can look at single stack 39xx or CS9, 40 or 45 from S&W would meet the need. Kel-tec is coming out with a single stack 9mm called PF9 which is a better triggered P11 in single stack. Bersa Thunder 380 would work well also.

Hope this helps!

 

[Old Fuff]

During the early days of the 20th century there were few laws that prevented anyone from carrying a concealed handgun. Consequently there was a huge market for small, generally inexpensive revolvers and pistols that could be carried in one's pocket. By the middle of the century the legal environment had changed, especially in big cities, and after World War Two most of the remaining pocket guns didn't return to production.

In addition, buyers accepted cartridges such as the .32 S&W, 32 S&W Long, and .38 Smith & Wesson (for revolvers) and .25 ACP, 32 ACP and .380 ACP (for pistols) as being powerful enough for self defense. The only 9mm pistol with any distrubution was the German Luger. Last but not least, the steels used now to make small .357 Magnum revolvers or 9mm mini-pistols were not generaly available, and not inexpensive when they were.

Until after World War One, lever action rifles were far more popular then bolt guns. Lever guns could be had in all kinds of sizes and chambered for many cartridges that are not commonaly available now.

Yes, times hae changed...

 

[Cosmoline]

I've also gotten the sense that compact leveraction rifles (they would have been considered carbines or short rifles then) were less common than they are today. The Win '94, for example, had a standard length of a whopping 26inches. At the same time, carbines could be VERY short, since there was no NFA to worry about.

I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that most modern hunting rifles have too much cartridge and not enough barrel.

 

[Husker1911]

Exception to the rule: The good old Slabside! 1911 .45ACP, anyone?

 

[Cosmoline]

Remember, at the time though the .45 ACP was about the biggest semi auto cartridge around, and among the most powerful of all handgun cartridges. Now it's in the middle, with some handgun cartridges running over four times as powerful. It's safe to say 100 years ago they'd consider a handgun such as the Casull to be completely insane. And maybe they would have been right

 

[Husker1911]

Along those lines, don't forget that in 50 years, when we're blessed with proton blasters and particle beam weapons, that a good old .38special snubbie shooting 148 grains of soft lead at 800 fps will still offer excellent protection!

 

[slzy]

the bayonets shrank too. from a military stand point,the rifles were smaller than the pikes and lances and even 3 band springfields. old folks in ordinance were always fighting the wars of their youths.

 

[default]

Interesting topic. As for rifles, early 20th-century armies had "optimistic" ideas about the ranges that troops would regularly engage each other at, hence long barrels, sights calibrated to 2000 yards, etc. Even some so-called "short carbines" (for example the Mauser Karabiner 98 Kurz or Short Magazine Lee-Enfield) seem pretty huge by modern standards. Also, presumably the rise of mechanized transport began to have an impact on rifle size, in terms of safe and comfortable stowage/carry in trucks/helicopters, etc.

Regarding handguns, it does seem as if there were not many "big" autoloaders way back when. Husker1911 mentions "Ol' Slabsides", which is for sure comparatively large by early 1900s autoloader standards, but personally I think that regular single-column 5" 1911s are actually somewhat smaller than you'd think they were if you had seen a lot of movies but never actually handled one. A little long and tall, but they seem to disappear when seen from directly above or behind.

 

[Onmilo]

When you said early twentieth century I though you meant somewhere around 1905-1915 when sleek half magazine, round barrel, lever action rifles ruled the hunting fields and men carried full size .38 Auto Colt pistols and New Service revolvers in their trouser pockets,,,,,,,

 

[Azrael256]

I agree with the previous posts, and would add one thing. The market has changed significantly. It has widened and deepend. I would wager that any member of this board spends far more time and money on guns than any of our great grandfathers would have. We also have a much broader selection of guns.

I think the market is demanding more and more concealable weapons due to the recent increase in CCW laws, and I think we are also demanding more novel guns. The idea of hunting with a large caliber scoped magnum automatic was not just silly, but nearly impossible 25 years ago. Now, with a couple grand to spend, you can buy a Desert Eagle in .440 Cor-Bon and trudge into the woods. Any of the Lone Eagle or TC Contender variants are in the same vein. They have very limited utility, but we have the money, so why not?

The introduction of the autoloading pistol in police forces also drove the market. Prior to the change to autos (we'll spot that one at 1985 just for argument's sake), rounds like 10mm, .357Sig, and even the popular .40S&W would have themselves been novelties. Wheelguns ruled magnum calibers for many, many years. Now, the market is demanding automatics with larger and hotter loadings.

And, of course, our focus has changed. I like to shoot my guns with some frequency. My grandfather, who has collected *maybe* ten guns in 80 years, hasn't fired a shot for about five years. He uses his guns when they are needed, but that is limited to the occasional coyote or rattlesnake. Of course there have always been recreational shooters of one flavor or another, but it has only been recently (I'll take a guess and say since WWII) that recreational shooters have outnumbered people who rely on their gun for a living by such a vast amount. Recreational shooters have money, and know that bigger = more fun. So, we all buy 1911s, .40S&W Glocks, USP9s, and various other large handguns.

 

[akodo]

I've got to disagree.

For starters lets take handguns. In the opening days of the 20th century, that is when small semi-auto pocket pistols are just getting invented really (I am thinking about john M brownings design among others) A few big police departments are finally actually issuing department weapons to it's police, and these are frequently J-frame .32 longs, or 38 longs. (but they do often have 4 inch barrels)

however, these are the exceptions, not the norms. Long barreled single action revolvers are much more common than semi-auto pocket pistols, Yes, some small tip-up I frame revolvers sell quite well, but so do the early generations of standard J frame 38 specials, and you find 6 inch barrels on 'carry models' a lot more common than any other time. Then too, when the 1911 enters the scene, it is sporting a pretty long barrel, and does so for many many years to come. There are plenty of police sidearms in 38-40 being issued in large frame revolvers, and early 357s are also found exclusively in large frame revolvers. It isn't until a little bit later in development that you see 357s in J frames or the equivalent.

It seems to me that the difference between then and now regarding handguns is that #1 full sized handguns of yesteryear were larger, but had smaller capacity than today's models. #2 small pocket guns were about the same size as today's but fired weaker rounds and had less capacity.


Regarding rifles. You speak of military rifles. Well, the Kragg-jorg, springfield -3, garand, and M-14 are all big large solid firearms. It isn't until the last quarter of the 20th century that the military makes a big move toward truely smaller rifles, such as the M-16.

Yes, in some periods of the 20th century, civilian sidearms were more likely to sport long barrels, but these are usually the models designed to handle old style black powder, not the smokeless stuff. I am not sure where you are getting your info that most model 94s had 26" barrels, because plenty of 94s and 92s in 44-40 were sold as carbines. Plus there was an entire class of rifles that existed back then that just don't really exist today (although we may be reinventing them), the light rifle. After the west was won, the idea that seemed to catch on regarding firearms, is there was no real need for 45-70s, 40-60s and the like, hell, not even 44-40 or 30-30. Nope, a light rifle that could take a oppossum, rabbit, squirrel, or coon was what was desired. If it had the ability to take a deer on rare occassions, so much the better. That's when lever action guns in 32-20, 25-20, and lost of cheap singleshots in .32long or even the old 32 rimfire came about. You also find long but softshooting calibers like .22 hornet popping up, and not just as a specialized mid-range prariedog gun. Today, we have diverged. No one is really 'pothunting' anymore for possum other critters for dinner, so for in season rabbit and squirrel hunting, the .22LR is really all there is. *note, much better powders of today allow the 22LR to be a nifty little round, back then it was harder to drive a round so fast, so a slower but heavier 32 was pretty good rabbit medicine* On the flip side, we sure as hell don't choose a chambering for rabbit that also has the power to drop a close range deer if one should happen by. Part of this is a better understanding of ballistics, and part of this is the more structured hunting season. Yet back in the early 20th century, lots of light half magazine 32-20s were sold with the idea of that is what you would take into the woods to shoot a rabbit or possum or whatever, and if you ran across a deer by chance, well by God, shot it with the 32-20 as well! *of course, these were also the days when 30-30 was fine for elk and even bear!*

 

[Limeyfellow]

Not always true. My webley revolver is in .455 and others where in equally big calibres for revolvers and pistols.

 

[Cosmoline]

Big and slow, though.

 

[mp510]

RIFLES:

--16" and 18" bolt-action rifles seem pretty uncommon until the 1960s (Remington 660, etc). Nowadays we have Rem Model Seven, Ruger carbines, Savage and Steyr "Scout", etc. Even the LOP seems long for me on older Model 70s and the like.

--M1 Garand was huge, the Yugo SKS is a clunker. The M4gery is small and slick, the KT SU-16 almost levitates out of your hands. The SOCOM 16 is our "modern Garand", and it's nice and tight. M1 Carbine is a notable exception: if you can't hack an M1 Carbine, maybe guns aren't your thing.

--The Winchester 37 and Marlin 39A were promoted as great rifles for teaching kids. They're about as big as a dang kid! Now a half-dozen folks build miniature .22 rifles, Ruger makes .22 carbines, and Marlin used to make the lovely 75C (hint, hint).


HANDGUNS:

-- I saw one of those Rossi/Interarms .32Long revolvers in a pawnshop: nobody makes anything like that now; notably smaller than a J-frame. The I-frame is long-gone, the J-frame is almost exclusively used for snubbies (mostly aluminum CCW pieces). Kit guns are few and far between. Even the K-frame has been thrown over for the L-frame.

-- Semi-autos are a little more complicated, since CCW has created many micro-pistols. But there's not much in between: I'd like to see something like a "full-size" pistol for "small-size" people. The Kahr K9 is a good example. I picked up a Modele 1935 service pistol recently, and would kill for something similar in 9mm. Nice and slim, single stack, SA. I was racking my brains, and can't think of anything that's single-stack, all-metal, and in a decent caliber without being too clunky. Beretta would have gotten it right with their single-stack compact version of the 92, but the sucker is barely thinner than their double-stack.

They had plenty of compact rifles back then. Look at the Remington pumps, the Stevens single shots, Krag and Trapdoor Carbines. They had LOTS of guns designed for kids- made by every mfgr.

 

[Stiletto Null]

But there's not much in between: I'd like to see something like a "full-size" pistol for "small-size" people.

The CZ75 is, nominally, a full-size pistol. But it's a smallish one.

And I definitely agree with the sentiment that a lot of modern rifles don't have enough barrel for their cartridges.