Electronic targets on public range

[taliv]

past two days I’ve visited a public range that’s new to me. They have electronic targets at 100 yards and 600 and 1000. They put appropriate nra targets on each so you have scoring rings and an “x” in the center to aim at. However, they don’t change the paper often and you’re not allowed to go downrange all day so they get pretty shot up and it can be hard to tell which holes are yours.

Luckily I showed up early and was able to see enough room in the x ring to see my holes at 100.

Interestingly, the iPad plotted my shots but showed them more than 4” from where they actually were the first day and more than 10” off the second day. Two different lanes. In both cases they were “recalibrated” by range staff and remained in the ballpark for the rest of my hour.

Obviously that raised the question of how in the world you’d know where you’re actually hitting at 600 and 1000 where you can’t actually see holes. I was super unimpressed.




After calibrating I fired two groups of 6 and 10 with my impact 6dasher (same as Walkalong thread). Pictured is second group. It claimed the first group was .65” and second was .97”. They looked the same size to me through my 40x leupold spotter but who knows? (First group was centered on x and I held half mil low for second group)

Interestingly it gives the velocity of each round and an average. 3 rounds into the first group I attached my magnetospeed and there was apparently a bit of shift as it was .35” with the first three and then the group moved slightly right for the next 3. The second group was different ammo but all fired with magnetospeed. In any event the point was that my mv avg for the 10 rounds was 2818 FPS and shooter says it’s 2658.7 at 100 yards. As you can see from the pic the target thinks the bullet was going 2625 FPS. 24 FPS difference is .2 mile or 7.2” difference at 1000 yards for me. So I’m sort of conflicted in thinking that’s not good enough for me but still way closer than I thought you could get from an electronic target. Idk.

Overall, definitely not a fan. Curious what experience other have had though.

 

[jmr40]

I went to the range in Talladega AL a couple of weeks ago where they use a similar target. If I understood correctly the actual targets are corrugated plastic and will have several thousand holes in them before being replaced. There would be no way to figure out which holes are yours. They have microphones in each corner of the target frame which calculate the distance from each speaker and use the 4 to pinpoint where the bullet impacts the target which is displayed on a computer generated graphic on a monitor. They claim it is accurate.

http://thecmp.org/competitions/talladega-marksmanship-park/


I'm just a country hick hunter who enjoys shooting. My brother, his son-in-law and I all went and this was the 1st time shooting past 300 yards for either of them. I'd done a little as far as 600 with homemade equipment in a hay field in the past. Overall I liked it, but don't have a lot to compare it to. I'm not a competitive shooter.

Below is my brothers best group fired with a Tikka 223 using a 6X SWFA Super Sniper scope. They don't give the velocity, but on the bottom left of the monitor the center to center measurement is 109.5mm. Which is 4.3". We had left to right wind that really messed us all up. That is where I need practice.



This is my best group fired with a Tikka CTR 308 using the same 6X scope as my brother. My 1st shot is right. After compensating for wind I had a nice 3 shot group going, then the wind died and I didn't notice causing the miss left. There are several ways to set up the display and this was my 1st, group at 600 and I hadn't learned how to set it up to calculate group size at this point.

Not being to scale makes the groupings look smaller than they really are. The black is 36" @ 600 yards. The center ring 6". I estimate the overall group size at about 18" with the 3 in the middle somewhere under 6".

 

[taliv]

If I understood correctly the actual targets are corrugated plastic and will have several thousand holes in them before being replaced. There would be no way to figure out which holes are yours.

right, except these guys staple a new paper target onto the plastic every few days

so were you just aiming at a black circle? could you see rings? did they do anything to mark the center?

 

[jmr40]

could you see rings?

There are rings in the black. I couldn't see them with a 6X scope at 600 yards. My nieces husband had a 20X scope and he could see them, at least on the lane he was shooting on. I suppose some of the targets were shot up so much that it would have been hard to see them. The range in Talladega is 100% paperless.

They have a separate range with 100 yard targets. A 1st time shooter there is required to go there 1st and put 3 consecutive rounds into the black ( just over 6"). When you do they punch your card and you can drive over to the big range with 200, 300, and 600 yard targets. You have to repeat 3 shots in the black at 200, before being allowed to shoot at 300 and again to go to 600.

The range was originally designed for shooting competition, not as a public range. But on days when there are no events going on they do open it to the public. I'm betting they put up new targets prior to competition. And for that type of shooting I'd think their accuracy is pretty good. If I heard right each target cost about $3000. FWIW they don't allow anything larger than 338 caliber.

I just held in the middle and squeezed the trigger. This range is a 2 hour drive for me and I looked at the 1st trip there as a learning experience. None of us are experienced long range shooters and I'll do some things different next time. Instead of placing the cross hairs in the center I will use the top of the black circle as my aiming point and if I have the dials adjusted for 18" low at 600 it should put me in the center. If I can learn to read wind better. I might need a few more X's on the scope for this too.

Not having to go cold to change targets was a huge plus for me. The local range where I shoot only goes to 300 yards and I rarely shoot past 200. Never at 300 unless I'm alone at the range. It just takes too long to walk the 600 yards when others are waiting to shoot.

 

[taliv]

yeah, i used to run the 600 yards at my old range 15 years ago, but i'm way too lazy to do that now. i prob should start

 

[rdnktrkr]

We purchased some 3, 6 and 12" steel and hang a 3 and 6 at 100yrds, 3, 6 and 12 at 200yrds and 6 and 12 at 300yrds at our range, I don't want to walk out and back.
I've shot at Talladega and loved it, I struggled at 600 with the Garand but did pretty good at 200, it is very nice to look at the screen and see your target. They also have pistol and shotgun ranges and charge by the day instead of by the hr.

 

[Nature Boy]

I haven’t shot on E targets yet but they are beginning to take over some NRA highpower ranges. As a result, the NRA has been working on crafting new rules that will govern their use for sanctioned matches.

Having talked to folks that have shot on them for matches I can tell you they seem to be very popular, mainly because they eliminate the need for shooters to take a turn in the pits, plus cut the time it takes to conduct a match by around 1/3.

E target users also say they require degree of maintenance and calibration to function adequately and generate accurate results.

Given their growing popularity I wouldn’t be surprised to see them become the norm for NRA and CMP matches in the near future

 

[Walkalong]

Unfo

A 1st time shooter there is required to go there 1st and put 3 consecutive rounds into the black ( just over 6"). When you do they punch your card and you can drive over to the big range with 200, 300, and 600 yard targets. You have to repeat 3 shots in the black at 200, before being allowed to shoot at 300 and again to go to 600.

Unfortunately necessary.

E target users also say they require degree of maintenance and calibration to function adequately and generate accurate results.

If they aren't fussing, it must be pretty good, and we can only assume the technology will get better.

 

[Nature Boy]

If they aren't fussing, it must be pretty good, and we can only assume the technology will get better.

That’s a really good point because, generally speaking, high power and XTC shooters like to fuss.

I believe one of these E Target systems cost ~$900 so they aren’t cheap but then again neither is constructing and maintaining target pits with target carriers and frames. Taking the property out of the equation, it would seem to me that you could make the case that E Targets are cheaper to start up and operate compared to a traditional range with pits. That might led itself to having more shooting venues which would be good

 

[taliv]

i kinda thought the same, that if they were being used that much for competition, they must work ok. but clearly they do require calibration. i'm curious how often that's needed and if there's a way to do it that doesn't involve live firing.

 

[Nature Boy]

@taliv

It could also be that the ones you were shooting were older and the e targets being used at matches now are upgraded version with the bugs worked out.

 

[taliv]

Could be but this is a brand new range open less than a year.

 

[Walkalong]

May have bought used equipment that was replaced somewhere else with the latest & greatest. Interesting question.

 

[Nature Boy]

E Targets would have to be reliable enough to go through a whole 60 rounds for record x 3 relays without calibration. If they had to recalibrate during a match it would invalidate the results, in my opinion.

 

[jmorris]

Any links to the product in question?

 

[taliv]

I don’t have a link but I presume the name is in the very top left of the pic I posted of their iPad app. I didn’t really want to turn this thread into a product bashing. May have been human error etc.

 

[Nature Boy]

I didn’t think you were bashing it. Heck, you’re the only one in the discussion that has any direct experience with them. Everything I know is second hand info. I’m certainly not trying to defend the system either. I’m just curious about them and how repeatable and reliable they are

The two target systems that get mentioned the most

https://www.silvermountaintargets.com/

https://shotmarker.myshopify.com/

 

[jmorris]

I wasn’t intending on bashing anything just curious.

It looks like it works by the time of the supersonic impulse between 4 microphones on the target.

The sensor unit in each corner of your frame contains two precision MEMS ultrasonic microphones which are capable of measuring a supersonic bullet within 1mm - when the frame is perfectly still.

Real-world accuracy will be limited by motion of the sensors and the air while shots are being detected. Typically, every shot will be reported within a few millimeters, with ideal performance being realized on a stable frame in calm conditions.

In general, a standard long range 6x6 frame that is secured from movement in the wind should be able to maintain accuracy within 1/4", although technically this is dependent on the wind conditions.

They say a standard long range target should be able to maintain .250” accuracy, I assume under ideal wind because they state “dependent”.

Your .97-.65 is .32 putting it an 1/8” over. I bet they would say it’s inside parameters and working as intended.

If you cannot go downrange you might as well be guessing though. With that type of setup tolerances are going to be very critical.

In a 17” shooting area target window what kind of sound delay would you have to capture from mic to mic to calculate a 1mm (almost .040”) difference in bullet flight? It would be much faster than your magnetospeed.

If they are not machining their target frames microphone mounting locations they are likely not placing them with that precision and subsequently are getting data that’s not accurate to calculate in the first place. If you get out of square or even not on the same plane or angle, things would get worse pretty quickly.

Move it out to where you can’t shoot tiny groups and I bet it will seem like it works better. For the 100 yard target, just pick an area on paper that is not shot up and shoot groups there and use the spotting scope. With the 1” lines you could get a pretty good idea how far off it is. Most folks will shoot for center so you can move out to the edges.

 

[Duster340]

Come a long from shooting at rocks at paved off distances. Guess we always saw where we were hitting. LOL. But I must admit, this new technology sounds really cool.

 

[taliv]

Not sure where you got the 17”. The targets are 6’ by 6’ standard nra backers. I’m also not following the logic of why you subtracted my two group sizes. If you’re saying the system accuracy is .25” per shot? Then in theory if you put two rounds in same hole the system could show them 1/2” apart of vice versa?

 

[jmorris]

Their website is the only place I have gathered any information so far

https://www.autotrickler.com/shotmarker-target-frame.html

If you ever do get a chance to go down range you might take a measuring device with you and see how close to the above instructions they are installed.

Measure carefully. Accuracy of 1-2 mm is ideal. A rule of thumb is that the shot errors will approximately match the target frame errors. If one sensor is 1/4" out of square, then reported shots near that sensor might be shifted as much as 1/4".

That’s with the 17x17 one above, not sure if things would get exponentially worse with a 72x72 frame though. Shouldn’t but getting square to .040- .080” would be more difficult for sure.

Would be fun to play with either way.

 

[Nature Boy]

The part I’m trying to rap my head around is the protocol for how they are used in a match.

For instance, in a traditional match with a human pulling the target there’s rules for challenging the the spot of the last shot. It doesn’t look like there’s any provision for doing it with E Targets or any verification of the actual paper target against what was recorded on the system’s display. Everything is taken on faith that the technology is working adequately.

I don’t think I’ve shot a match where there isn’t at least one shot I’ve spotted where you really have to study the bullet hole to make sure that it caught the edge of the scoring ring. I’ll often ask the guy pulling next to me to verify. I’ve also had the firing line call down and challenge my spot (I was vindicated by the way ). No way to do that with E Targets

Also, if shooters must trust the E Target, there has to be some protocol established for how they are set up, how the calibration is conducted and what tolerances must be followed. You can’t use just any old paper target for a sanctioned match. It must be an official NRA target held to a specific standard. Since the computer screen, in effect, replaces the paper target for scoring purposes, I don’t see how the NRA and CMP can be so cavalier about the standards that govern it.

The new NRA rules for E Targets are focused on one primary issue, a 7 second delay. This it meant to simulate the time it takes a human target puller to mark the target. The concern is that without the delay the shooter can machine gun his rounds when conditions are favorable, which turns the prone, slow fire game into a bench rest match.

 

[Nature Boy]

here's the new rules for E Targets. A little more coverage than I though regarding standards but not much and nothing that addresses what I mention above

https://competitions.nra.org/media/7934/2019-high-power-update.pdf

 

[MrCleanOK]

Just for background info, the military uses electronic/acoustic pop up targets on known distance rifle ranges. No idea how long the technology has been around, but I wouldn't call it new. On the 300-yard rifle qualifications I shot while I was in, the closer targets always had the centers shot out of them, still registered hits. No idea how precise they were or how often they were calibrated, but seeing the error possible on the civilian ranges kind of makes me wonder. How many of my hits were really hits, and how many misses were really misses?

 

[taliv]

i posted some additional pics of groups in reloading here https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/donuts-suck.856877/

i'm shooting at 100 on paper to try to figure out what's wrong with my ammo. finally figured out it was donuts. and also to chrono and figure out a load for the hornady A-Tips which seem to be friggin awesome. Since swampy passed, I'm assuming I have the last of the JLKs I will ever get.

edit to add, the target seemed to match my POI exactly today