Energy transfer vs tissue damage

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You're incorrect. The mechanism is direct trauma to the brain.
So, you mean that a high-velocity penetrating missile to the brain represents the same mechanism of injury as a punch to the jaw causing no bone fracture?
You're saying that the incapacitation produced by a good boxer's body punch is due to "blood loss"? Or you haven't addressed that question?
The boxer falls down and either hits is head or his head violently moves from the impact
Hmmm. Obviously not a student of good abdominal blows and their effects. Perhaps you also believe that when a man is incapacitated by a solid blow to the testes, it's because he hits his head (cranium) when he falls? :rolleyes:

And in any case, unless the wound-tract-only theory says I shouldn't use the 125gr HP in .357 that the Evan Marshall recommends, what difference does it make?

I've read Marshall and Sanow, I've read MacPherson. One says the .38 Special FBI load shouldn't have worked, one says the 9mm ISP load shouldn't have. But both worked. And today, you can load Gold Dot or DPX with either. Big debate!
 
So, you mean that a high-velocity penetrating missile to the brain represents the same mechanism of injury as a punch to the jaw causing no bone fracture?
From WebMD:

What causes a concussion?

Your brain is a soft organ that is surrounded by spinal fluid and protected by your hard skull. Normally, the fluid around your brain acts like a cushion that keeps your brain from banging into your skull. But if your head or your body is hit unexpectedly hard, your brain can suddenly crash into your skull and temporarily stop working normally.


Hmmm. Obviously not a student of good abdominal blows and their effects.

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyHlX1PR-gY

I'm a serious student of Bart Simpson's "Touch Of Death" - http://www.hulu.com/watch/28728/the-simpsons-touch-of-death

One says the .38 Special FBI load shouldn't have worked, one says the 9mm ISP load shouldn't have.

I'm unaware of anyone saying any .38 or 9mm load "shouldn't work". Provide citations please.
 
I'm unaware of anyone saying any .38 or 9mm load "shouldn't work". Provide citations please.

Loosedhorse,

Yes, please. You claim to have read MacPherson yet this claim...

Loosedhorse: said:
I've read Marshall and Sanow, I've read MacPherson. One says the .38 Special FBI load shouldn't have worked, one says the 9mm ISP load shouldn't have. But both worked.

...matches nothing attributable to MacPherson that I've ever read by MacPherson.

Let's see some evidence of this claim. (Links, .pdfs, scanned articles...what have you)
 
Shawn Dodson:

A concussion is not required for a knockout or a temporary stun.

A blow to the stomach temporarily incapacitates by disrupting nerve signals. Actually, technically it only stops the diaphragm from working for a short period. It is a psychological effect that causes the person to stop moving. A determined person can continue fighting even while they can't breath.

The diaphragm is not the only muscle that can be temporarily paralyzed via blows to nerves. You can temporarily paralyze an arm or a leg by hitting them in the right place...but the target area is much smaller and thus more difficult to achieve. Kick boxers will try to kick just to the inside of the shin bone in attempt to hit a nerve that will temporarily paralyze the foot.
 
What causes a concussion?
Ah, so a bullet to the brain causes a concussion? If not, then bullets and jaw punches have different mechanisms of injury, no?
JHP Ammunition Selection

...JHP bullets should be designed to meet the following guidelines:
1) Average penetration should be about 14 inches.
2) Velocity should be between 800 and 1000ft/sec.
3) Weight should be the maximaum practical for the caliber (147...grains in 9mm...)
MacPherson, D: Bullet Penetration (@nd Printing, 2005), p. 298.

According to Marshal and Sanow (Hangun Stopping Power, p.188--referenced here):
[T]he Winchester 9mm +P+ 115-grain JHP Q4147 [is] used by Illinois State Police (ISP). The +P+ bullet penetrates as little as 7.9 inches of gelatin

So, the ISP load is too light, too fast, and penetrates too shallowly for MacPherson's "shoulds." (I guess you two need to do some reading, huh?) :D
 
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Remo:

See "Differential Pressure Across Diaphragm Muscle: The Mechanism Responsible for Sensations of Intense Internal Pressure and Pain Caused by Blow to 'Solar Plexus'" at http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm

You can temporarily paralyze an arm or a leg by hitting them in the right place...but the target area is much smaller and thus more difficult to achieve. Kick boxers will try to kick just to the inside of the shin bone in attempt to hit a nerve that will temporarily paralyze the foot.
In a similar vein, when you hit your "funny bone" you've physically traumatized the ulnar nerve. The blunt trauma disrupts the synapses of afferent nerves (which transmit info to the brain) and sometimes disrupts efferent nerves (which transmit info from the brain). This explains why you feel an intense tingling sensation in your lower arm and hand (your ulnar nerve is in essence "seeing stars") yet, in most cases, you can still wiggle your fingers.

See "Blunt Trauma Concussion of Spinal Cord as Mechanism of Instantaneous Collapse Produced by Centerfire Rifle Bullet Wounds to the Torso" at http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs28.htm
 
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So, the ISP load is too light, too fast, and penetrates too shallowly for MacPherson's "shoulds."

Nice try. You claimed "shouldn't work".

Evan Marshall once posted a similar claim on his discussion board, something like (I'm paraphrasing): "So-called experts said 9mm 115gr +P+ won't work." I challenged him to provide citations because I was unaware of anyone who disagreed with him that claimed 9mm 115gr +P+ won't work. Marshall deleted the entire thread instead.
 
Nice try. You claimed "shouldn't work".
Yes, as MacPherson specified what a good load "should" be, and the ISP load ain't it. (By the way, I also said that the "energy dump" folks say the Treasury load "shouldn't work"--perhaps you'd like to defend Marshall and Sanow now; maybe they didn't say it shouldn't work?).

So, if MacPherson recommends one thing, yet a load that is the exact opposite of his recommendations has a great street record and reputation--that means he expected the light, fast, shallow round to work great, too? Wow, I guess he's got all the numbers covered.

Bottom line, guys: the wound-tract theorists (MacPherson among them) like penetration. They usually ask for 12 in minimum and prefer 14. Yet the ISP load worked just fine. A bit of a hole in the theory, don't you think?

Like this?
Maybe more like this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nKE8LME4sQ

(Must've been an invisible head shot there, huh?)

Actually, while you're here, could you go back to explaining how a bullet through the brain is the exact same mechanism of injury as a punch to the jaw. I don't quite see the equivalence yet--maybe MacPherson says so somewhere?
 
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1. Disrupt central nervous system.

Just striking a suitable blow to the CNS can result in a person going down.
That is how the boxer's punch works.

You know how it feels when you bump the nerve in your arm ('the funny bone')?
Imagine that same thing in your brain.

A blow can cause the nerves to spontaneously depolarize ('fire') resulting in recovery time and the temporary inability to control whatever those nerves control.

2. Shatter a supporting bone structure (pelvis, femur, etc)

Not likely with most handgun calibers except the vary largest.
And the targets are small and not always easily located with ebough precession from a distance.

3. Exsanguinate the target (bleeding out).

Could be just a few seconds to minutes to hours depending on how big a bleed you create.
Blow the heart, hit the aorta, major pulmonary circulation, etc. the person will be down very quickly.
If they make it a full minute they are doing very well.

Hit a femoral artery and they might last a few minutes if the wound bleeds freely (no tamponade effect from the surrounding tissue).

Smaller bleeds take longer.

Killing quickly is not a simple matter with a handgun.
Compared to most rifles they are far lower power and simply cannot create the often massive destruction of a rifle bullet at much higher speed.

Head wounds that may not prove lethal if you are close to care can be very lethal if they disrupt breathing.

It take a lot of muscle coordination to breath, and it can be disrupted by damage that does not appear that significant.
Breathing support after head trauma is a relatively knew thing.
For a long time it was assumed if you stopped breathing as a result of head trauma you were as good as dead.

The army finally figured out that breathing may stop, but can resume of pulmonary support is provided to avoid brain death.
 
It all gets rather silly. You can't reduce a living thing to a table or chart showing energy and penetration and reach any sort of valid conclusion. There are too many variables within shot placement, individuals and even the state of mind of individuals.

You can't even count on a CNS hit, because too many people have walked away from head shots with little more than a headache. Every year or so some story gets floated in the media about somebody seeking care because of a long standing headache and the X rays reveal a slug in their brain from years before.

With that said, HP's do more damage than FMJ's. Bigger HP's do more damage than smaller HP's. Carry the biggest gun you can conceal (dependent on time of year), load it with HP's and keep shooting until the threat stops wiggling.

Fast and accurate shooting trumps caliber, choice of cartridge, handgun type and anything else. Shoot your carry gun, a lot. Shoot at a variety of distances and targets. Shoot from cover. Shoot while moving. Nearly everything else is a matter of chance. The only variable you can control is how well you shoot.
 
Yes, as MacPherson specified what a good load "should" be, and the ISP load ain't it.

MacPherson is not claiming that the ISP load "shouldn't work" is he?

By the way, I also said that the "energy dump" folks say the Treasury load "shouldn't work"

Citation?
 
MacPherson is not claiming that the ISP load "shouldn't work" is he?
So, his recommendations mean nothing? He says, "Use this." You bring him the exact opposite, and you think he'll say, "Yeah, those will work, too."

In that case, forget his recommendations--because whether you follow them or not, you get an effective round!
By the way, I also said that the "energy dump" folks say the Treasury load "shouldn't work"
Citation?
The citation that shows I said that? Post #26, this thread. ;)

Kodiak, your post makes perfect sense--how is that even possible unless you pick a side on the "energy" vs. "wound tract" debate? ;)
 
I'm not an expert, but I can tell you what I have learned from hunting.

Shot placement trumps any magic bullet philosophy. I put the bullet were it needs to be and get a clean kill (unless its an especially determined critter), if I don't, well I've got lots of walking to do, a damaged ego and a bothered conscious. The bullet needs to be on the correct path and penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals you are shooting at above all.

Energy transfer does happen, but mostly only with high powered rifle calibers (not so much in handgun calibers, hence multiple, quick shots being generally the best approach to a quick stop) and shouldn't be counted on. Expanding ammo helps more energy transfer happen. Energy transfer should not be relied upon, only actual permanent wound channels created by the diameter of the bullet can be counted on.
 
You bring him the exact opposite, and you think he'll say, "Yeah, those will work, too."
MacPherson will tell you there are better choices. He provided terminal performance guidelines and rationale. Whether you choose to accept them or not is your business. He doesn't care what you or anyone else decides to use.

The citation that shows I said that? Post #26, this thread.
Nope.
 
MacPherson will tell you there are better choices.
You feel comfortable telling us what he will say? Do you have a citation where he used the exact phrase, "are better choices"? ;)

Just so I have this straight: you're kicking up all this fuss because you would have prefered that I'd said that MacPherson said there "are better choices" than the ISP load, and that the energy-dump folks said there "are better choices" than the FBI load?

Seems like a small point to get into a tear about. (But maybe distraction is part of your game.) Tell me, Sean: 'Djever hear of a rhetorical device called hyperbole? Especially an innocuous one, as I applied it equally to each side of this tempest-in-a-teapot? But fine, if it makes you happy: "are better choices"--consider my statement so revised!

My point remains: the ISP load is an effective load, despite not meeting any of MacPherson's recommendations.

Now that we're all calm, again: how is a bullet hole in the brain the same mechanism as a concussion, again?
 
Rifles aren't handguns, but I've shot hundreds of deer, as well as caribou and other large hoofed critters.
I've never seen the "deer shot through the heart and ran 100 yards" scenario. When I shoot a critter it's dead right there and I've done it with anything from .243 to black powder rifles on up to .350 Rem Mag. I could go into my "most people don't know where the heart on a deer is" rant, but sufficient to say that shot placement is everything.

I also once shot a deer with a Federal 165 grain "reduced recoil" .45acp slug (don't ask me why I was carrying that at the time...) from a Kimber compact. That deer too, dropped right there - not a single step.

Hunting is a very different thing than shooting when your life is on the line simply because when hunting, you either have a perfect shot or you don't take the shot. You don't have that luxury when somebody is trying to kill you. And you don't have a high velocity rifle either! But... It's still all about shot placement.

On a separate (but related) rant, on this board as on every board, you always have somebody showing off a picture of their 7 yard pistol target with a group the size of a lap dog. And everybody says "great" "nice shooting" "very good", etc, etc, etc. When they should be saying "Is your gun broke, or is it just you?"

I'm quickly approaching codger status, but there was a time when any group under ten yards had better be one ragged hole or you'd be hanging your head as you left the range. Now, if people hit something black on the target it's good shooting. They don't even know they're bad shots. I don't know if the general degradation of marksmanship standards is due to the new generation of handguns where the worse the trigger the more highly recommended the gun is, or it's something more general like ammo prices being high. Probably both...

I'll sum up with my standard rant. Gun and cartridge choice won't make up for bad shooting. Buy a .22 handgun and shoot tens of thousands of rounds at every conceivable distance and from every vantage point and every possible stance. Shoot until you can hit a target the size of a playing card or beer can instantly at any reasonable distance - 25 yards is a reasonable distance.

Then buy a gun that you like. A gun that feels right in your hand. A gun that points naturally. A gun that has a good trigger. Whatever caliber it's in will be fine.
 
You feel comfortable telling us what he will say?
MacPherson is a personal acquaintance.

Just so I have this straight: you're kicking up all this fuss because you would have prefered that I'd said that MacPherson said there "are better choices" than the ISP load, and that the energy-dump folks said there "are better choices" than the FBI load?
I'm not kicking up any fuss that I'm aware of. You made claims that I have reason to believe are untrue. I merely asked you to cite your sources so I could review these alleged statements for myself. You failed to provide them, which is what I expected. No big deal.

Now that we're all calm, again: how is a bullet hole in the brain the same mechanism as a concussion, again?
It isn't - but then I suspect you already know that.
 
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MacPherson is a personal acquaintance.
I have many personal acquaintances, but I don't often decide to speak for them.
You failed to provide them, which is what I expected.
I provided sources (just as you expected?) demonstrating my point: that MacPherson's recommendations don't predict or explain the success of the ISP load (just as you already knew?). The ISP load argues against considering his recs as reigning principles, and you have provided no reason that we should consider his recommendations the determining word.

Oh, and now that we agree about bullets and punches being different, perhaps you're up to explaining TKO by abdominal punch? Blood loss and neural "disruption" are still the only ways to end an attack?
I've never seen the "deer shot through the heart and ran 100 yards" scenario
Different animals are different. Cape buffalo shot through the heart then going 80 yards are not unusual.
any group under ten yards had better be one ragged hole
Different styles of shooting. For defensive shooting, many would say if your group is smaller than an open hand then you're shooting too slowly. If I've misunderstood, and you meant you get one-hole groups at 10 yards shooting as fast as you can go, my hat's off.
 
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Just striking a suitable blow to the CNS can result in a person going down.
That is how the boxer's punch works.

You know how it feels when you bump the nerve in your arm ('the funny bone')?
Imagine that same thing in your brain.

A blow can cause the nerves to spontaneously depolarize ('fire') resulting in recovery time and the temporary inability to control whatever those nerves control.



Not likely with most handgun calibers except the vary largest.
And the targets are small and not always easily located with ebough precession from a distance.



Could be just a few seconds to minutes to hours depending on how big a bleed you create.
Blow the heart, hit the aorta, major pulmonary circulation, etc. the person will be down very quickly.
If they make it a full minute they are doing very well.

Hit a femoral artery and they might last a few minutes if the wound bleeds freely (no tamponade effect from the surrounding tissue).

Smaller bleeds take longer.

Killing quickly is not a simple matter with a handgun.
Compared to most rifles they are far lower power and simply cannot create the often massive destruction of a rifle bullet at much higher speed.

Head wounds that may not prove lethal if you are close to care can be very lethal if they disrupt breathing.

It take a lot of muscle coordination to breath, and it can be disrupted by damage that does not appear that significant.
Breathing support after head trauma is a relatively knew thing.
For a long time it was assumed if you stopped breathing as a result of head trauma you were as good as dead.

The army finally figured out that breathing may stop, but can resume of pulmonary support is provided to avoid brain death.
As a former boxer, I can verify for you that getting your bell rung(pugilism terminology) is absolutely NOTHING like hitting your funny bone. A knockout worthy blow(knockout or near knockout) to the chin does not hurt, is not uncomfortable, and causes ZERO sensation.

You simply lose all strength, all sensation, coordination, and balance. You can't lift your arms, sounds are strange, your vestibular system ceases to work, and you can't tell if your feet are touching the floor or not. It even effects your vision somewhat, in that you lose all depth perception. You simply cannot tell how far away things are from you. your feet appear to be 15 feet away and the walls only 5 feet away. It is completely disorienting and you are utterly helpless.

My description is what it feels like to receive a TKO punch to the chin. I've never been knocked out cold but they say it's just like someone hit your power switch and turned you off. No pain, no sensation, no memory, no nothing.

Ok, I had to edit after reading my comment. I've never been knocked out cold while boxing. I have been knocked out cold from falls, motorcycle accidents, etc. The strangest one was while riding a 3 wheeler with no functioning brakes. I hit a tree...woke up very confused. you see, my memory was that I saw the tree, swerved, missed it, then ended up in the shallows of a pond...then suddenly I woke up and realized I didn't miss the tree. Not only did I have no memory of the impact but while I was out cold, my brain continued in a dream, continuing the event as if the impact never occurred.
 
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Remo:

See "Differential Pressure Across Diaphragm Muscle: The Mechanism Responsible for Sensations of Intense Internal Pressure and Pain Caused by Blow to 'Solar Plexus'" at http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm

In a similar vein, when you hit your "funny bone" you've physically traumatized the ulnar nerve. The blunt trauma disrupts the synapses of afferent nerves (which transmit info to the brain) and sometimes disrupts efferent nerves (which transmit info from the brain). This explains why you feel an intense tingling sensation in your lower arm and hand (your ulnar nerve is in essence "seeing stars") yet, in most cases, you can still wiggle your fingers.

See "Blunt Trauma Concussion of Spinal Cord as Mechanism of Instantaneous Collapse Produced by Centerfire Rifle Bullet Wounds to the Torso" at http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs28.htm
I havn't yet clicked on your link. I will in a minute though.

First I just want to tell you I already know what a serious blow to the solar plexus will do FIRST HAND. I don't know what your talk about pain and sensation is all about. There is no pain except in the first split second. Then after that your diaphragm is simply paralyzed. You do not feel pain. You cannot breath in no matter how hard you try. Then little by little, your diaphragm begins to work again. First shallow breaths is all you can muster. The process can take a whole minute before you can get any air at all and you will wonder if you will pass out before you can get air into your lungs. And I'll tell ya what, that minute feels like ten. While you are convulsing your torso trying to get air in and gulping with your mouth like a fish trying to make air go in, people watching you that have never experienced it themselves before will think you are having epilepsy or going into shock.

This is what happens when you receive a TREMENDOUS blow to just below the ribcage...as in a dirtbike handlebar into your solar plexus when wiping out at a high rate of speed.


OK, I read your link. I have NEVER felt pain in my diaphragm from having the wind knocked out of me. And I have had the wind knocked out of me too many times to count. I do not know what the author of this short essay is talking about.

Now, since we're on the subject of debilitating or incapacitating effect of trauma on the body, I would like to touch on something that I havn't seen anyone else here do. That is the effect of a serious blow to a bone with a hard object...a baseball bat or a hammer for instance. There is a very strong immediate effect BEFORE the pain sets in. I'm talking about an elbow or a shin bone or the bone on the top of your shoulder. You know how in the old fashioned cartoons when someone gets hit hard the character will vibrate like a tuning fork? That's because that's exactly how it feels. you get the sensation that your entire skeleton, or part of your skeleton is vibrating...for about a 1 second duration. It is tremendously incapacitating for that second and for an additional second or two after while you gather your wits.
 
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Mostly the only things I shoot anymore are prairie dogs, and any jackrabbits that happen along. The guy I've been shooting pd's with the past decade or so has never shot anything larger than a woodchuck, but is a firm believer in high velocity and bullets that disintegrate on impact or virtually so. He's very intelligent and a good observer, but trying to convince him that larger animals from deer to the rogue H sapiens on up require that the bullet hit the right place and penetrate enough to disrupt bodily function. Energy dump might kill small animals fantastically well, but is otherwise sort of like a fairy tale. It's virtually impossible to transfer the results to a larger animal short of a .50 BMG or 20 mm cannon

Whatever causes the disruption of bodily function had best do it as quickly as possible if it's a self defense situation. Arguments about whether it's due to this or that or what is best for the job is sort of like arguing about haw many angels can dance on the head of a pin. From what I've seen a bigger hole that goes deeper is best on larger animals. Going all the way through isn't too good for self defense because of safety concerns, but it's likely to put the opponent one the floor as fast or faster than not.
 
...and on a lighter note... anyone watch the movie, "Scarface"?

he took a LOT of rounds and it didn't seem to stop him much but that shotgun to the back sure did.
say hello to my little friend...
 
...and on a lighter note... anyone watch the movie, "Scarface"?

he took a LOT of rounds and it didn't seem to stop him much but that shotgun to the back sure did.
say hello to my little friend...
Movies and anything else emanating from Hollywood are as far from reality as one can get.

Remember, these are the folks who frequently portray people being flung through the nearest plate glass window by a shotgun blast, cars being blown up by one or two handgun rounds to the rear of the vehicle and all sorts of other silliness like the scenes in Scarface.

Still, it was a great movie with a lot of really good lines.
 
The strangest one was while riding a 3 wheeler with no functioning brakes. I hit a tree...woke up very confused. you see, my memory was that I saw the tree, swerved, missed it, then ended up in the shallows of a pond...then suddenly I woke up and realized I didn't miss the tree. Not only did I have no memory of the impact but while I was out cold, my brain continued in a dream, continuing the event as if the impact never occurred.

That's wild. Your experiences and assessments of being k.o.'ed and smacked in the solar plexus are spot on. Debilitating as they are, I don't remember feeling pain. I've been kicked in the head hard enough to cause a momentary black out. There was just a split second feeling of helplessness and paralysis, then I fought through it and came back. After getting kicked in the solar plexus I was just wondering why the hell I can't breath. It felt like it took half an hour to start breathing again. Scary feeling, but not painful.
 
9mm+P+ ballistic performance meets or exceeds 38super factory loads. It also meets or exceeds 357magnum in uber short barrels and similar to 357sig in uber short barrels. I don't think anyone would question the effectiveness of 357mag or 357sig. I believe the prejudice against 9mmLuger comes from the visual impact of the diminutive size of the cartridge. Hold a 9mm in your hand along with a 38special and you will instinctively prefer the 38special.

I prefer revolvers so I'm not biased against 38special. But there's no denying the 9mm is a very impressive cartridge for its size.
 
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