Enfield replica for deer hunting

[Ethan sherman]

Hello again as the title says I've been thinking of getting a replica Enfield for a while but would like to use it for hunting deer I've heard most rifles have 1in 60 twist and like round ball wich is fine but will the rifles shoot a hunting load like 100 grain ffg I have a 54 Cal Hawkins but always loved the civil war era and need to justify getting a 1000 dollar rifle thanks

 

[Slamfire]

I wanted a 1853 Enfield, my Gun Club President has one of the Parker 1853 Enfields, but he is not interested in selling it. I did buy a James River rifle, one that was built for black power North-South shooting games.





Hoyt is a specialist barrel maker and the barrel is a good one.



Best accuracy is with either a Rapine 575460 (460 grs, 575 diameter bullet) or a Rapine 575510 (510 grs 575 diameter) Minie ball and 50 grs of FFg. I am going to state, Minie balls are the only way to go with rifled muskets. They do shoot accurately out to 100 yards, undoubtably further, but I zero'd my musket 100 yards.




Rapine molds have thin skirts so they expand and fit the barrel (0.577) well with 50 grain charges. I was told that the clearance between barrel and bullet must not be more than 0.002". I can take a 0.575 Minie, drop it down my cleaned and oiled barrel, and hear the wind whistling as the Minie drops down the tube. It is also critical to lube the bullet. Ray Rapine recommended a 50/50 mix of beeswax (from ebay) and crisco. And, I filled the bullet cavity with this lube. I lubed the heck out of the bullet.

Based on discussions with guys who used muskets on game, due to the trajectory, they are short range weapons. Yes you can hit and kill at 500 yards, but the trajectory leaves no margin for elevation error. I walked back to 150 yards and shot my musket, and I believe the Minie dropped 13 inches in that 50 yards. But, if you hit bone, you will tumble the animal, a 510 grain soft lead bullet hits unbelievably hard.

The Minie ball did good, for something that was traveling around a 1000 fps. And if you got the Lorenz bullet to tumble, the wound was even worse.

Lorenz bullet vs .58 Minié test in ballistic gelatine

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well there are Enfield replicas, and there are round ball rifle barrels with a 1:60 twist, but they don't necessarily apply back to the Enfields.

Pedersoli offers an Enfield Musketoon, and a "Two-band" 1853 Enfield rifle.....and they are both rifled at 1:48.
Pedersoli also offers a "three-band" 1853 Enfield rifle, and it has a barrel that is 1:78 twist rate.

By the time industrialization hit arms manufacturing in the 1840's, it had become apparent that it's not just the twist rate when it comes to making an accurate barrel. The width of the grooves and the depth of the grooves play an important roll as well. SO you can shoot .58 conicals out of any of the versions of the Enfield rifles, providing they are the right fit, and you will likely be very successful, or you could try patched round ball. Often patched round ball doesn't like a shallower grooved barrel, but you just don't know with your rifle until you try it. EITHER WAY that's a .58 hole into the deer, so as long as you develop an accurate load you will have venison on the table.

LD

 

[Ethan sherman]

Thanks for the great response from a couple of rifles I have I know my 1in 48 Hawkins will shoot 3/4 groups at 100 yards with 120 ffg and a great plains bullet but won't shoot Les than 2 in groups with round ball after playing with the load and my dad has a Hawkin in 1in 66 and it's the exact opposite both same make and model

 

[Ethan sherman]

Since we're on the subject of barrels could you shoot shot out of a Enfield rifel more effective sense it has large shallow rifling instead of smaller deeper rifling like other guns I've always wanted a muzzleloader shot gun I have a tc 50 Hawkin I could get bored out to smooth bore

 

[Slamfire]

Since we're on the subject of barrels could you shoot shot out of a Enfield rifel more effective sense it has large shallow rifling instead of smaller deeper rifling like other guns I've always wanted a muzzleloader shot gun I have a tc 50 Hawkin I could get bored out to smooth bore

I don't see any reason why you could not shoot shot in any muzzle loader. I recall reading of renascences of shooters around 1900, having very little money, who purchased obsolete civil war muskets, as they were very inexpensive compared to more modern rifles. These owners used them as shot guns. What I recall were accounts of them cutting sheet lead into squares, loading up the musket, and blazing away! (they must have found the sheet lead, and lead shot cost more than they had) I don't know if the patterns will be any good, but whatever you stuff down the tube, is coming out the front once you pull the trigger!

If you really want a BP shotgun, Pedersoli makes a bunch, including a flint lock!

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ti...les-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns.html

 

[Ethan sherman]

I don't see any reason why you could not shoot shot in any muzzle loader. I recall reading of renascences of shooters around 1900, having very little money, who purchased obsolete civil war muskets, as they were very inexpensive compared to more modern rifles. These owners used them as shot guns. What I recall were accounts of them cutting sheet lead into squares, loading up the musket, and blazing away! (they must have found the sheet lead, and lead shot cost more than they had) I don't know if the patterns will be any good, but whatever you stuff down the tube, is coming out the front once you pull the trigger!

If you really want a BP shotgun, Pedersoli makes a bunch, including a flint lock!

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ti...les-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns.html

Ya I have shot shot out or rifles and my replica Remington is the best snake and rat pistol I have but in a rifle do to the twist past 20 yard forget about hitting much I saw a video about making sabots out of tampons so it strips through the rifiling but when I looked at a armi 3 band Enfield at a pawn shop awhile ago I noticed the wide shallow rifling and thought if it will shoot shot that would be a great evening gun witch is what I love about muzzleloaders you can change load and powder and hunt any thing from squirrel to moose I new a old man that did that with a 30-06 had light loads for squirrel and hevy for deer

 

[dave951]

Thanks for the great response from a couple of rifles I have I know my 1in 48 Hawkins will shoot 3/4 groups at 100 yards with 120 ffg and a great plains bullet but won't shoot Les than 2 in groups with round ball after playing with the load and my dad has a Hawkin in 1in 66 and it's the exact opposite both same make and model

The service charge for that gun was 60g 2f. Much higher than that and you'll blow the shirts on a Minie. Best accuracy is Minnie sized to .001-2 under bore size. You have to check the bore. Don't trust that Mario and Luigi got the bore right. My Parker Hale is a 2moa gun all day with 42g 3f Swiss. All you have to do is connect on Bambi. The bullet is already 58cal and 400gr. That works out to more than a 44 mag at the muzzle.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't know if the patterns will be any good,

The reason rifles are rifles and shotguns are shotguns is that the twist of the grooves, even shallow ads centrifugal force to the shot pellets, and thus they fly toward the edges of the cone of pellets, often leaving a hole in the center of the pattern, aka the "donut" pattern. In fact some modern screw-in turkey choke tubes have straight grooves to correct any twisting the shot column may have had imparted when the shell was fired at the breech. Cut shot (cubes) is nothing new, and in fact it was offered for a while in French shotshells as it spreads quite wide and had some applications in Europe vs. pests. Square musket ball were used in the past by Eastern European troops when they ran out of molded ball.

LD

 

[Old Stumpy]

Have you taken a good look at the Pedersoli .58 Zouave rifle?
Much prettier than the Enfield.

 

[kBob]

When I was about 11 I hunted a family friend's oak hammock he let pigs wander, maybe 30-40acres with a pond that varied greatly in size in the midst of it for old gray bushy tail tree rats. I would get dropped off before day break, wander in to my favorite log and eat my cold biscuit, baked tater, and bit of what ever meat was left over from supper and wait for the first movements of acorn foragers.

I generally hunted with a .410 and when asked by other boys why I did not use a .22 answered "Because I prefer to shoot them rather than shoot at them"

By then the state had put a limit on possession so my PaPaw limited me to one more shell than the limit of beasties to encourage me to hit them.

I was on my way out and one short one morning when someone shot between me and the fence. Turns out it was a pair of young Black brothers whose family worked on the farm and they too were downing bush tailed supper. Hey hey howdy and how's it going and we showed off our guns and take so far for the day.

They were smitten by the look and ease of use of my Winchester 37 and I was fascinated by their Enfield 1853 three band. They claimed one of their great grand dads carried it in the war to shoot at one of my great grand dads with, was stationed in town during reconstruction, met a local girl and here was the rifle. The oldest of the boys carried their rifle with a can of caps in his pocket ( actually a snuff can with ten or so in it at this point)and the younger carried a can of BP, a bag of #6 shot, some newspaper and a Table spoon.

You see this coming, right?

a tablespoon of powder, a ball of newspaper, a tablespoon of shot, another ball of newspaper (I noted it was the weekly county courier I sold the land owners) a cap on the (giggle) nipple (hey, I was eleven) and instant .58 caliber shotgun.

I took my last tree rodent of the day with a 100 year old minie rifle and they took one each with the Model 37.

the older boy and I fell into a discussion about trading even gun for gun and the little brother reminded us both of the interest involved in such a trade with out the big 'uns involved, to be collected with belts, shaving strops, 'backer slats or peach branches and the deal fell though.

My one shot may have been luck or grace of God but the bushy tail fell dead out of an oak from twenty some yards off and did not take chasing or finishing.

Rifling or not that day and that place an Enfield .577 three band made a pretty good if slow to load, shotgun.

I got to explain to PaPaw how I used up all my ammunition for one less kill but it was worth it

BTW three years later a boy brought one like it to class for American History and said his Grand dad and dad as late as the early 1950's brought home deer and hog with it using patch and round ball.

-kBob

 

[skeeterfogger]

I'd use a reproduction over a replica.

 

[midland man]

I'd use a reproduction over a replica.

WOW :/

 

[Old Stumpy]

Replica:
1) An exact reproduction executed by the original artist.
2) A copy exact in all details.

Reproduction:
A replica, duplicate, or exact copy of something.

 

[midland man]

Replica:
1) An exact reproduction executed by the original artist.
2) A copy exact in all details.

Reproduction:
A replica, duplicate, or exact copy of something.

basically the same thing!!

 

[PapaG]

I wanted a 1853 Enfield, my Gun Club President has one of the Parker 1853 Enfields, but he is not interested in selling it. I did buy a James River rifle, one that was built for black power North-South shooting games.

View attachment 906424

View attachment 906425

Hoyt is a specialist barrel maker and the barrel is a good one.

View attachment 906426

Best accuracy is with either a Rapine 575460 (460 grs, 575 diameter bullet) or a Rapine 575510 (510 grs 575 diameter) Minie ball and 50 grs of FFg. I am going to state, Minie balls are the only way to go with rifled muskets. They do shoot accurately out to 100 yards, undoubtably further, but I zero'd my musket 100 yards.

View attachment 906427


Rapine molds have thin skirts so they expand and fit the barrel (0.577) well with 50 grain charges. I was told that the clearance between barrel and bullet must not be more than 0.002". I can take a 0.575 Minie, drop it down my cleaned and oiled barrel, and hear the wind whistling as the Minie drops down the tube. It is also critical to lube the bullet. Ray Rapine recommended a 50/50 mix of beeswax (from ebay) and crisco. And, I filled the bullet cavity with this lube. I lubed the heck out of the bullet.

Based on discussions with guys who used muskets on game, due to the trajectory, they are short range weapons. Yes you can hit and kill at 500 yards, but the trajectory leaves no margin for elevation error. I walked back to 150 yards and shot my musket, and I believe the Minie dropped 13 inches in that 50 yards. But, if you hit bone, you will tumble the animal, a 510 grain soft lead bullet hits unbelievably hard.

The Minie ball did good, for something that was traveling around a 1000 fps. And if you got the Lorenz bullet to tumble, the wound was even worse.

Lorenz bullet vs .58 Minié test in ballistic gelatine

I beg to differ on the Minie only statement. I set a national record at 50 yards with a 1 in 72 twist Zouave with round balls back around 1970. I won more than a few rb bench matches locally with that same gun with Redfield sights adapted. More than one way to skin that cat

 

[dave951]

Many of the repros can shoot round ball if you take the time to get the variables sorted. The "Zouaves" are known for that.

Back to minies, what we have found in the NSSA is for best accuracy with minies in general terms is to have about .001 windage to bore, relatively thin skirts, moderate powder charge in 3f (about 40-50g), good lube. Rapine isn't the only mold out there suitable for target work. I shoot a RCBS Hogdon with modified base pin in my Parker Hale and it's a sub 2moa gun.

Many like to lube with Crisco. I ran across a thread in an old buckskinner forum where they were discussing what "went wrong with Crisco" and it was dated to the time Crisco changed it's formula. I decided to test it and sure nuff, Crisco wasn't as good as other natural lubes. I found that head to head, lard worked better than Crisco in my guns, especially the Parker Hales. That's not to say that Crisco won't work, but in my guns, it's not the best choice for accuracy.

Back to hunting, yes, any minie gun is going to have quite a bit of drop, that's just physics. The bullet still weighs 400-500gr, is 58cal and soft lead. Any solid hit is going to drop a deer. The longer the range, the more critical your range estimation is. My advice, get an accurate load, shoot it enough to be confident of a good hit on a game animal. Limit your shot to that range or shorter. Enjoy the hunt and time in the woods with a gun from history.

 

[midland man]

question about the enfields? are these loads shot out of smoothbores or rifled barrels?

 

[dave951]

Rifled.

 

[Old Stumpy]

I found that head to head, lard worked better than Crisco in my guns, especially the Parker Hales. That's not to say that Crisco won't work, but in my guns, it's not the best choice for accuracy.

The U.S. Armory mixture for lubricant during the civil war was a 50-50 mixture of tallow and beeswax.
Sometimes the beeswax can be lessened, but practically all BP lubes contain it.
The lard is just a substitute for the tallow, and pure 100% neatsfoot oil can also be used with the beeswax.
I find that such a mixture prevents fouling in cap & revolvers as well and results in extended shooting sessions.

 

[midland man]

so will my guns shoot totally different going from allways save shortening with beeswax mix to lard and beeswax mixed together using 50/50 mix?

 

[bc38]

I have an Enfield that someone in the distant past "sporterized". made a haft stock out of it, cut barrel back and added new front sight, dovetailed a front ramrod pipe into the barrel. This is my favorite hunting rifle muzzle loader or otherwise. On the other hand ya may not want to take a $1000 gun and start hacking on it with an axe and hacksaw

 

[Old Stumpy]

so will my guns shoot totally different going from allways save shortening with beeswax mix to lard and beeswax mixed together using 50/50 mix?

As with all things BP, you will have to shoot it to find out.