"Enhanced Penetration" handgun rounds.

[buck460XVR]

The big debate recently about removing M855 from exclusion from AP status had to do with it becoming a handgun round. The thing that saved it, was being a rifle round. The use of Armor piercing rounds specifically designed for use in a handgun is kinda what the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1985 is about. I doubt if it would even make it to the shelves.

 

[TimSr]

I used to have some pre-ban 25acp rounds that met the legal definition of "armor piercing ammo". Would go clean thorugh an empty soda can!

As we try to comprehend the reasomning for the nonsensical definition, the original legislation included any round that would penetrate a police vest, as they were called "cop killer" bullets. While the NRA got beat up for "supporting" the legislation, their "support" ammounted to watering down tne inevitable, to only include pistol rounds, as most rifles would easily do the job. To date, no cop has ever been killed by a "cop killer" bullet, so the legislation was nothing more than dog and pony show for the ignorant, and a ban on cheap surpus ammo used by plinkers and target shooters.

Best penetration I get on steel is with hard cast bullets. Got a feeling that a soft vest would eb so match for a 454 Casull. Really though, if I ever find myself being attacks by bad guys wearing body armour, it's probably best to either find a different target area on bad guy, or break out the deer rifle.

 

[Odd Job]

Back in the day, there was a company in South Africa called New Generation Ammunition which developed a round called the Eliminator. These were light rounds, around 80gn in 9mmP, and they were solid copper that was nickel plated. The bullet had a unique shape, it resembled a wadcutter with a raised rim and a central protruding post. Because of that shape, each round had a plastic ogive cap which was designed to facilitate feeding in a semi-auto pistol, but was supposed to be discarded at the time of firing.

A lot of us bought those in South Africa, typically carried in a second magazine. Not to defeat body armour, but to penetrate cars. The reason for this is we faced the real probability of having to defend ourselves from within a vehicle, or in circumstances involving a vehicle.

I never shot any cars, but in rudimentary tests involving cellulose sheets (X-ray films) the Eliminator penetrated better than any ball or JHP I had access to.

That ammo was sold in the US under the name "Sentry"

 

[481]

As I mentioned in my original post, it's just a thought experiment. Seems like the overwhelming thought is that it's pointless.

Going with that, it seems that there might be a way around the material composition limitations found in 18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B) provided amidst the scolding post #20!

You could go with a projectile made of nickel, cobalt, or pure copper (so long as it is not alloyed with beryllium) which would provide the requisite hardness and density (somewhat greater than that of steel) for decent penetration probably at the cost of barrel (rifling) durability. After that, the only determining factor left would be the speed of the bullet...

Have you looked at the works of Alekseevskii & Tate, Christman & Gehring, Rosenberg and Dekel (there are several others, of course) with regard to the phenomena? They all propose some very interesting models that provide considerable insight to the penetration process of rigid projectiles against thin pliable armors.

 

[ThomasT]

I talked to one of those guys at a shooting range who was the rambling sort. He was talking about taking magnum revolver bullets and putting them in a drill press to open up the HP cavity and then putting in a piece of steel dowel rod. He claimed it would punch thru steel plate targets. I don't know if it would or wouldn't. I'm not 100% sure what the letter of the law is, but I doubted the legality of trying that.

Thats just what the Mexican Banditos were doing in the late 80s to early 90s. They would drill out a hollow point bullet and use a section of nail from a Hilty .22 powered nail gun and epoxy them into the nose of the bullet. Highly illegal.

Or you could take the advise of radio show host G.Gordon Liddy and just "shoot em' in the head".

 

[MICHAEL T]

In my 1st tour in Vietnam 1966 . I took my issued flack vest. Hung in over a wood coke cola case . Then shot in with my unauthorized bought off a leaving NCO 25 auto. . The 25 went clean thru the jacket. .Did not do much for my faith in this so called flack jacket .

 

[Mr.510]

One of my fellow machinists used to drill out his hollow points a bit and press in a hardened steel ball bearing equal in weight to the amount of lead he removed. I know this is illegal now, but I wonder about a ceramic ball or core? Some of the modern ceramics have astounding mechanical properties. Nothing breaks glass as easily as ceramics. I have to wonder what a ceramic core or jacketed ceramic bullet would do to bullet resistant glass? I'm sure somebody somewhere has tried it but I didn't find much with Google other than old mall ninja threads.

 

[benEzra]

But to be defined as AP, there are certain factors that must be met. Anything that does not meet the standard simply isn't AP, like M855, is considered an enhanced penetrator round.

Just as an aside (because I know the prohibitionists are going to try to ban it again), M855 generally has *less* penetration at close to moderate range than M193 does, due to its lower velocity (M193 will often penetrate NIJ Level III rated AR500 out of a 20-24" barrel at less than 20 yards, whereas M855 will not; "III+" plates stop both). The purpose of M855 was to extend the range at which 5.56mm will penetrate thin sheet steel helmets, which M193 would not do past 500 yards or so, and DoD wanted a 600 yard capability. So they designed a longer, heavier bullet with a higher BC, and put a little steel in in up front to move the CG back and help keep the core intact on impact. M855 met the criterion, but the velocity loss meant less penetration at more moderate ranges than M193. At close range, even a polymer-tipped 40-50gr VMAX likely has more penetration ability against Kevlar or AR500 than M855 does, out of equivalent length barrels.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One of my fellow machinists used to drill out his hollow points a bit and press in a hardened steel ball bearing equal in weight to the amount of lead he removed. I know this is illegal now, but I wonder about a ceramic ball or core? Some of the modern ceramics have astounding mechanical properties. Nothing breaks glass as easily as ceramics. I have to wonder what a ceramic core or jacketed ceramic bullet would do to bullet resistant glass? I'm sure somebody somewhere has tried it but I didn't find much with Google other than old mall ninja threads.

Modern ammunition is designed by highly qualified ballisticians and carefully tested under laboratory conditions. It's highly unlikely any shade-tree mechanic can whip up something in his basement that factory self defense ammo.

 

[Mr.510]

Modern ammunition is designed by highly qualified ballisticians and carefully tested under laboratory conditions. It's highly unlikely any shade-tree mechanic can whip up something in his basement that factory self defense ammo.

If there's one thing I've learned in a long career designing innovative mechanical things (race car parts) it's that whatever the new idea is, somebody has to think of it and try it first. We're talking about the possibilities for legal AP handgun rounds, not common self defense ammo. I doubt any manufacturer is ever going to produce AP handgun rounds.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If there's one thing I've learned in a long career designing innovative mechanical things (race car parts) it's that whatever the new idea is, somebody has to think of it and try it first. We're talking about the possibilities for legal AP handgun rounds, not common self defense ammo. I doubt any manufacturer is ever going to produce AP handgun rounds.

How much time and money are you willing to expend developing and testing a home-brew round that will penetrate armor reliably, feed reliably and has the same effect as a readily available factory bullet?

 

[captain awesome]

As has been posted the commonly available metals that would turn a round into more of a penetrator are illegal in handguns.

I discovered this after a friend and I spent a great deal of time and money exploring the possibility of a "super magnum 410" round to be used in the more robust 410/45colt handguns such as the Taurus Raging Judge, bond arms 410/45c derringers, the Magnum Research BFR...

the idea being it would be a more effective defensive round or even a capable hunting round for these handguns. the conclusion was we needed something heavier and much harder than lead. we had some pretty viable solutions with some various tungsten projectiles, and then discovered that even though the 410 is a shotgun round and these would be perfectly legal in a full length shotgun, no such full length shotgun (to our knowledge) existed that could safely take the extra pressure required to make these rounds perform the way we wanted them to. so that left them only being viable as a handgun rounds and made their intended use only as a handgun round and thus were illegal. We never did contact the BATF to get a ruling on the matter, we kind of figured it wasn't worth the hassle or potential red flags raised.

so that was my story and how I discovered what the ridiculous laws are. though not viable for my previous 410 experiments, the thought of ceramics is certainly INTERESTING for other applications.

 

[lysanderxiii]

https://www.atf.gov/file/11266/download

18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:

(B)The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

It also contains an exemption provision applicable to ammunition which otherwise falls within the definition of armor piercing, but which the Attorney General determines to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.

 

[GBExpat]

In my 1st tour in Vietnam 1966 . I took my issued flack vest. Hung in over a wood coke cola case . Then shot in with my unauthorized bought off a leaving NCO 25 auto. . The 25 went clean thru the jacket. .Did not do much for my faith in this so called flack jacket .

It was sometime afterward that you discovered that the "flak jacket" was created to reduce injuries/death from shell splinters, not bullets, hence, the name, yes?

 

[Dan Forrester]

Well if you are looking to stay with 9mm i'd look at the lightest solid copper projectile you can find. I see on midwayusa.com there are Magtech solid copper 92 grain projectiles with a nice deep cavity. I'd then fill that cavity with one of these "stronger than steel" epoxies like JB weld.

I'd imagine you could push that pretty fast in 9mm but probably .357 sig or 9X25 would be the way to go.

I don't think that would be illegal.

Dan

 

[lysanderxiii]

Well if you are looking to stay with 9mm i'd look at the lightest solid copper projectile you can find. I see on midwayusa.com there are Magtech solid copper 92 grain projectiles with a nice deep cavity. I'd then fill that cavity with one of these "stronger than steel" epoxies like JB weld.

I'd imagine you could push that pretty fast in 9mm but probably .357 sig or 9X25 would be the way to go.

I don't think that would be illegal.

Dan

I think you will find they still expand quite well.

 

[amd6547]

If I want an "enhanced penetration" auto pistol, I reach for my Tokarev and some surplus 7.62×25 fmj.

 

[481]

If I want an "enhanced penetration" auto pistol, I reach for my Tokarev and some surplus 7.62×25 fmj.

Since velocity is what drives penetration in hard materials like steel, that sounds like a good option. The 7.62x25 has plenty of velocity to spare.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

could someone develop an enhanced penetrator handgun round?

I'm sure it COULD happen.

The more likely scenario would be for an ammo manufacturer to simply print "Enhanced Penetration" on the box of the same ammo they've been selling for years and charge twice the price for it.

You know, put some pictures of an AR or someone decked out in SWAT gear on the box and it's "tactical" ammo and worth much more money.

That's what I figure would be more likely.