Entry into long range shooting

[Saggins]

Sorry for the long post (I have a lot of thoughts and reloading data running through my head) I recently decided I am going to try to get into long range shooting (600-1000 yards). I am a farmer by trade so I have access to my own places where I can shoot to those ranges easily. I also handload, so having quality ammunition is not a problem. I am dead set on using Rem 700 platform (my father and I already each have one but I want one specifically for this). My indecision comes from choosing between models, the SPS AAC-SD .308 with 20" 1:10 barrel or Long Rang (all with 26" barrels) considering .7mm remmag, 1:9.25 twist /.300wm, .300rum both with 1:10 twist.

I know the .308 is "handicapped" when compared to these magnum rounds, but I've heard a lot of good things about shooting 20" heavy barrels. I've also seen data that there is only slight velocity gains from 20 to 26 in barrels. And that theoretically longer barrels are more prone to flex?

With the magnum rounds I've seen a lot of argument for all sides. From a pure balistics standpoint the RUM>wm>7mm (but by VERY small margins, atleast from charts I've seen on jbmballistics) because at the same speeds they can throw out higher bc bullets, or can throw out same bc bullets at higher velocities.

But that takes into account none of the intangibles. Recoil of course is also highest in the RUM (many loads are 15-18% more powder for about 3-4% more velocity, which also means it's costing more to shoot). I have a.300wm already in a 6lb encore so I know what that recoil feels like already. Also, when looking at components the bullet selection for .30 is also more varied, but 7mm bullets are improving.

So considering all of these things if you were going to do long range shooting from both prone and bench rest would you pick reduced recoil over performance? Or the other way around? Or pick somewhere in the middle? I was leaning towards the 7mm for reduced recoil but only very minor increases in drop/windage. I appreciate any thoughts and appologize for the rambling.

 

[strambo]

I think the SD 20" barrel model in .308 makes a lot of sense to start for 600-1000yds. Easy to load and find components for, less cost, crazy barrel life. Great compact platform to learn on and will always have a place at medium ranges (400-800+). If you really like LR shooting, your next rifle can be a 6.5 or a magnum to reach out even further (you could just re-barrel the M700 also).

I made the mistake of getting a .300WM to get in to LR shooting, wish I had gotten a .308 instead. The WM is great on paper, but I don't shoot it much and feel like chump shooting it at typical ranges 100-300yds, like a waste of powder.

 

[kris6600]

Assuming you mean for paper punching a 308 with a 20" barrel should be sufficient. I use a 30-06 built on a 700 action. It's a happy medium between a 7 mag and a 308. The 20" barrel won't effect velocity as much on a 308 as much as it would on a magnum and it will be more rigid with better harmonics. Remember when choosing a cartridge based on ballistics that you are probably looking at max velocities, but when you ladder test and tune your load that it will more than likely be a mid range load that is going to be your most accurate. So make sure that what ever caliber you choose is capable of what you want even if you're not running max velocities. If you mean to use this for hunting at that range that is a different conversation. Good luck and welcome to a new all consuming addiction. Looking forward to your results.

 

[trentcwwilson]

There's a big variant that hasn't been covered. Price limit?

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Also, another thing that needs to be covered are your goals. Do you just plan on plinking for fun or is it something you could see yourself getting more serious and into the competition side of things?

If it's just for fun all those would be just fine. If you have thoughts about competing skip all those calibers and go 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington. They give you the ballistic trajectory and wind performance of the magnums with less recoil.

If you are set on those calibers I'd go with the .308. It's easy to find load data for, has a huge match bullet selection, has mild recoil, has excellent barrel life, you can buy match ammo for it at most sporting good or gun stores, reloading components are easy to find for cheap and it's plenty accurate out to 1000 yards.

If you are set on a R700 rifle the AAC SD is a pretty decent starter rifle. The 1/10 twist is good for the heavier 175/178gr .30 caliber bullets and they are usually decently accurate for a factory R700. You'll want to remove the cheap stock ASAP and replace it with something better but I'd recommend that with most factory 700's too. If you do change your mind about it having to be a 700 I believe there are better rifles out there including some that come in .260 or 6.5 CM and are at reasonable prices points.

I'll warm you now if you do get hooked on the long range side of things your wallet will probably be much, much thinner in the near future. It became bit of an addiction and the good stuff isn't exactly cheap.

 

[Saggins]

My purpose is strictly paper punching, I already have 25-06, 308, 300wm, & 444mrln for gathering meat. The .308 of which is already a rem700, but it was my father's that he gave to me as my first deer rifle and would like to pass the same one down to my son.

I was planning on upgrading slowly as I practice at increasing yardages. Would be a real disservice to myself to start shooting at 600+ right off and get discouraged. I chose the rem700 partly because it's an action I'm familiar with and trust firsthand. Secondly I can get into one with a heavy contour barrel for 700 or less. Optics wise I was thinking about a Viper Vortex pst 6-24 so there's another 700-900 depending if I go with ffp or sfp. The rest I'll upgrade down the road. And depending on my success (or lack thereof haha) I might tryout local comps first or just stick to beer bets with my friends. But if things go well I figured I could always sell it off and start over with a 6.5 (and by that time I'd probably have enough saved again in the "gun fund")

Coloshooter I also read the aac-sd stock is less than ideal, but the Long Range models come with Bell Carlson m40 stocks, do you think those are worth keeping or also in need of an upgrade right away? (Either way I'll have the stock bedded right away)

 

[trentcwwilson]

I've got the perfect rifle in mind if you happen to reload. Dies are a bit pricey though.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

The B&C stocks are not too bad. They use an aluminum V-block to align the action in the stock instead of traditional bedding. The only downsides are weight and the lack of being able to fit except for one model that is fully adjustable.

I actually used to have a AAC SD in a B&C A3 stock. It was not a bad rifle but after getting to use different rifles I got to see what I was missing and moved up to bigger and better rifles. You're actually looking at a decent starter optic. My suggestion would be spend the extra money on the FFP you'll thank me in the long run.

 

[taliv]

Go to precisionrifleforums and check out the Nebraska local group. I'll be shooting the PRS match there in the spring. You should go and watch. See what people are using and what targets they're hitting and not hitting.

 

[Saggins]

Don't get me wrong I'm still favoring rem700, but I was getting a bit more curious about 6.5 and I read that you can get 6.5 cm or 260 in the Savage 12 lpr for a street price of about 800, (26" heavy contour 1:8) is this true? Is that a better place to start than what I was mainly considering earlier? Again I've heard decent things about savage but have zero firsthand knowledge. I was a bit concerned about barrel life, especially when just starting

 

[MislMan]

Consider a REMAGE barrel for about $300-$350 in 6.5 Creedmoor. You can install the barrel yourself and use the Rem 700 action and bolt. Shoot it in your current stock and decide if you need a change after that.

... Larry S.

 

[Driftertank]

I have a 7mm RM Rem 700 LongRange. I did a fair bit of research and consideration before buying. I was torn between 7mm and .300WM....what it ended up coming down to was 2 factors: cost per round and free recoil. That, and 7mm bullets tend to have slightly better BCs. Energy at 1k yds was practically a wash.

I load a 154 Hornady SST to right around 3100fps for a general-purpose load. It's pretty easily sub-MOA, no pressure signs, and comfortable enough to shoot all day. Oh, and on paper at least, good for at least 1200yds. Havent gotten out there yet.

 

[Bart B.]

Every rifle is a compromise of several things depending on its use.

Barrel life comparison for those with best accuracy properly tested:

.308 Winchester, 3000 rounds
6.5 Creedmore, 2400 rounds
.260 Remington, 2000 rounds
.243 Winchester, 1500 rounds
.300 Win Mag, 1200 rounds
7mm Rem Mag, 800 rounds
6.5x.284, 800 rounds

.308's with 20 inch barrels have problems shooting bullets fast enough to stay supersonic at 1000 yards with loads at max safe SAAMI spec pressures. 22 inch ones in M14 and M1A match rifles barely did it with 175 and 180 grain bullets.

Barrel stiffness has little to do with accuracy. A 30 inch long, skinny barrel chambered for the .308 has almost three times the muzzle angular spread as a 20 inch long thick one. Yet they shoot little 155-gr. bullets into 5 or 6 inches for 20 or more shots at 1000 yards; same as the best heavy and thick barreled benchrest rifles. Besides, all totally free floated barrels are 100% repeatable in the frequencies they vibrate at. No other component of the shooting system does that because their properties are not exactly the same from shot to shot.

With two rifles with equal accuracy as tested in a free recoiling machine rest, the one with the least recoil will shoot more precisely when fired hand-held against ones shoulder. That's why the belted magnums were dumped for 1000 yard prone matches in the late 1990's and the 6.5x.284 took over as a favorite. It still is as it's got the best compromise of wind bucking, good bullet selection, accuracy, ease of shooting precisely and reloadability. Belted cases are not all that easy to reload for best accuracy; that's why the military teams quit reloading their fired cases for the 30 caliber belted magnums they used; new cases shot most accurate.

If you plan on shooting more than 3 or 4 shots at a time and want best accuracy to last 15 to 20 shots, I suggest a Savage rifle. Everything I've gleaned from their use in competition is they don't string shots away from the aiming point as their barrel heats up. I've not heard of any Remington 700 shooting to point of aim inside 1 MOA for 15 to 20 shots fired in as many minutes. Remington and others could fix that problem for an additional $50 per rifle.

If cost is important, the best compromise with that in mind is a .308 Winchester with a 26" barrel and a 1:12 twist. That'll handle 155 to 190 grain bullets very well with long barrel life, sub MOA accuracy in a good barrel, ease of reloading and shooting. If you want to shoot a .308 Win with bullets having a higher BC than 26 caliber ones, get a 1:8 twist barrel 26" long and shoot Sierra 240-gr. bullets. Very accurate and great windbucking combination that's got more barrel life with any 6.5mm round bullet with equal BC.

 

[Saggins]

Maybe im not so "dead set" on the rem700 anymore. After a bit more thinking, does the Savage lrp in 6.5 cm have more value to it than say the rem700 aac-sd. The rem starts at $650, and most agree it would benefit a lot by a better stock, so there's probably atleast another $250, then there is trigger work which will cost another 100, so we're talkin 1000 to start. If I can find a Savage for 800-900 does it need much more (other than bedding)?

 

[Driftertank]

The 700 is nice because of the amount of aftermarket support there is for it.
It sucks because you will need it. Lol.

There are better items out there. But for the money, i couldnt beat the 700LR for being closest to what i wanted (heavy barrel, bed-blocked stock, easily customized, and common and effective calibers) right out the box. I had been looking at Howa and Weatherby Vanguard, but the only ones with factory heavy barrels were .308....i already have a .308

 

[Bart B.]

Saggins,

What accuracy do you want at 600 to 1000 yards that you can count on all the time in perfect conditions?

1/3 MOA? 1/2 MOA? 3/4 MOA? 1 MOA? 1-1/2 MOA? Bigger?

Knowing your objectives makes it easier for me to suggest something.

There are $300 to $400 scopes that'll enable accurate shooting than those 3 to 5 times as costly. Put most of your money in the rifle where it counts. Scopes do nothing to make rifles accurate.

 

[trentcwwilson]

260 Dingo is always an option if you don't mind spending $1600 and waiting about a year. They have been swamped with orders but they are amazing at 700 yards.

 

[Saggins]

I'd love to stay less than 1 MOA, and I guess the info I saw about prices for the Savage 12 lrp were incorrect (damn Internet haha) but it sounds like a new one runs 1000-1100 bucks. Is it that still a better value for 6.5cm vs .308 20" 1:10 rem700 aac-sd for 650? Or the SPS varmint .308 26" barrel 1:12 for 630

 

[Bart B.]

Yes I do. But I'd get the .260 in a Savage 12 LRP.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Every rifle is a compromise of several things depending on its use.

Barrel life comparison for those with best accuracy properly tested:

.308 Winchester, 3000 rounds
6.5 Creedmore, 2400 rounds
.260 Remington, 2000 rounds
.243 Winchester, 1500 rounds
.300 Win Mag, 1200 rounds
7mm Rem Mag, 800 rounds
6.5x.284, 800 rounds

Don't let the barrel life chart fool you. I have noticed Bart has a wealth of knowledge for benchrest shooting and if we were talking benchrest I'd be paying attention. We are talking more of a practical side of things, at least that's what it seemed you wanted to use it for. For practical field shooting you'll get at least double the life on a barrel with sub MOA accuracy in the field. I'm not getting the 400 round difference between the .260 and 6.5 Creedmoor as they shoot the same bullets at near identical velocity with the similar pressures. If the 30 degree neck is making that much of a difference maybe but I've never seen any hard data on that.

A .308 will easily get you out to 1000 in with a 20" barrel. I used to use the 178gr A-MAX and easily score hits to 1000 here and was usually to 1250 or so before dropping sub sonic (Further on a hot summer day here at altitude). A longer barrel will help maintain velocity to reach out there but they can get too long to lug around in field conditions.

All that being said I highly recommend the Savage or a Tikka CTR for you in 6.5 CM or .260. Either of those riflea should be good to go with no need to touch the stock or trigger. The Tikka action is one of the smoothest I've ever used. It wasn't till I used a Tikka and Accuracy International that I realized how horrible the factory 700 action is. The 60 degree throw is also faster than the 700 and keeps your knuckles away from the scope (I used to hit mine on the scope when running fast on a 700).

 

[Saggins]

Bart I'd love to hear your thoughts on why .260 over the 6.5cm. The most I know about the difference is that the .260 has a higher case capacity (2gr of water more) and the 6.5cm has a less tapered case

 

[jmw1]

Have a look a Savage Stealth BA in 6.5. Just released at SHOT show with a msrp of $1206 which should put the retail around $1000-1100.
I have several savages with accura trigger. Very good trigger in my opinion

 

[Bart B.]

I don't shoot benchrest. Other disciplines' stuff is just as accurate.

The .260 shoots bullets about 100 fps faster than the 6.5 Creedmore with equal pressures. It's also proved itself at the NRA Nationals under its original name; 6.5x.308. Easily made from .308 Win cases.

My barrel life numbers are based on what the most accurate ones get before they degrade 50%. That's been Sierra Bullets' standard for decades for their test barrels get quality testing their stuff.

The OP wants his accuracy to be under 1 MOA at 1000. The most accurate rifles and ammo at 1000 yards start out at about 2/3 MOA properly tested for 20-shot groups. At those barrel life numbers, they've degraded to about 1 MOA. That's a 50% loss of accuracy. Should the OP accept less accuracy, he'll get more barrel life.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Where is this data published? I'd like to look into it especially the 6.5 CM out doing the .260 by 400 rounds. That's a whole different debate between a few different guys on a different forum...

Maybe the data is good but PRS shooters seem to be running. 260's and 6.5 CM's 3000-4000 rounds before replacement and can hold their own in the field through that point as well. The 6mm guys are getting what you listed for .260 & 6.5 barrel life running them over 3000fps. A .308, before it's demise in the PRS / Pratical-Tactical competition world, was known to be competitive up to 5000 rounds. The requirement for PRS to be competitive would be sub MOA but I'm guessing most guys sticks are running 1/2 MOA or less through replacement.

I'm not saying that those of us who shoot the PRS style stuff are the most precise, best shooters in the world but we are pretty good at what we do being accurate at long ranges in less than optimal field conditions.

Is the fact that we are getting more life out of our barrels that we are running a lower standard or is it the fact that we run top end, way too expensive equipment that is better than the average? I don't know....

Still even 2000 rounds is a lot of shooting for the average person.

 

[Bart B.]

I agree that those cartridges doing well in PRS matches at 200 and 400 yards shooting at their square or round 2 to 4 MOA targets do well through several thousand rounds. Have any of them put 20 rounds inside 3 to 4 inches at 600 yards or 7 to 8 inches at 1000?

I doubt any PRS rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA at 200 to 400 yards all the time. Those few benchrest rifles holding records at 300 yards put several 5 or 10 shot groups under 1/2 MOA.