Entry Level Muzzleloader for the Beginner

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wankerjake

wankerjake

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Ok, my card got hit for deer, which means my wife drew a muzzleloader tag. Neither of us have shot a muzzleloader, so I'm looking for recommendations as to an entry level setup for a beginner. Ideally it'd be relatively easy to use as far as muzzleloaders go. I want to scope it and if we like it at all, will probably do antlerless elk hunts with it. So the capability of, say, minute of cantaloupe at 200 yards would be nice.

This particular deer hunt, I don't anticipate shots greater than 150 yards. Probably more like 80-100.

Suggestions? I was going to default to a T/C of some sort, unless there are other recommendations. I'd like to buy one in the next week or two to give us time to practice. Hunt is end of October.
 
I LOVE my TC encore! Its a good shooter put a doe down at 165 yards ranged with it last yr infront of my little girl. Its pretty and classy ALSO very pricy. I set 2 of my buds up with CVA wolfs as the price was really good and reveiws were good. I zeroed them in and was higly impressed with their feel when shoulder. Natural pointers and good triggers. The recoil pad is very nice which helps as the things have some recoil. They can handle mag loads but I found them to shoot better with 100 grains of 777 pellets. Accuracy was annoyingly close to my TC. I would still pick my encore but if I was to recomend a good starter gun I would certainly point you towards the wolf with a Konus scope!If money isnt an issue Get the encore as its a gun you will probably see your grand kids hunt with.
 
I think that this might sound silly at first, but "bear" with me.
My suggestion is what my first muzzleloader was; a fairly "high tech" Savage ML10-II.
It is a smokeless powder charged muzzleloader.
It requires the use of a scale, much like a cartridge reloader uses, but the simplicity of use and function are nearly unmatched. Smokeless powder fouls like a standard low velocity rifle. Virtually nothing! I've fired 30 rounds per range trip with mine and it fires every time.
It comes with three recommended powder charges and bullet/sabot recommendations and my first try had a 250gr SST zeroed at 200 hundred. yards and 2 inches high at 100. It easily groups 1.5-2 inch accuracy at 100 yards.
The 209 shotgun primer is worth pennies a shot and fires every time!
This gun has a "learning curve" with the powder measuring, but is so simple to maintain that I believe the offset is still in its favour.
There is no big cloud to obscure your shot.
There is a small $5.00 "screw" sleeve called a vent liner that needs to be replaced every 100 shots, but that's a s small trade off for a rifle that comes with Savage's famous accutrigger and and only needs to be cleaned twice a year!
I have not regretted my purchase since.
I used it last year to shoot the biggest mule deer I have ever seen in real life(full disclosure-short hunting carreer)
I can wholeheartedly recommend this rifle.
I ask a simple question of the people who are anti smokeless muzzloader; why not the Savage smokeless?
 
squarepants33889 said:
Oh and the best part. I took it home scoped and ready for action with all the powder, bullets and sabots for 1200 bucks. (I already own a scale)
Click to expand...
I have one too (Savage ML10-II) but hate the barrel-heavy weight. It is close to impossible to carry with a sling because the heavy barrel pulls the muzzle towards the ground as you walk. The only way I can carry it comfortably slung is muzzle down and then the front end hits bushes etc.
It's a great (and expensive) gun but I don't hunt with it anymore unless I can drive within 100 yards of my hunting spot.

For a relatively inexpensive starter gun, I would recommend a CVA Optima or Acura inline.
 
My T/C's are great,I would recommend one for a new b/p shooter.You can't go wrong with quality,even if you can beat the price.50 caliber is by far the most popular,and easiest to find bullets for.Sabots make loading loading much easier if your state allows them for hunting.Forget about "magnum" loads,over 100 grains,at least for now.The recoil can get annoying and won't make the new experience a bunch of fun.I see my best accuracy with around 90 grains in my hunting rifles,but may be happy with a little less.If your state allows scopes, I would suggest using one from the start.All the newer inlines have a removable breech plug,making cleaning much easier.I have been using Triple7 powder for several years,and it's a good choice,clean burning and gives me good accuracy.Be sure to clean the rifle when you get home from shooting it,hot water and a little dish soap work fine.The black powder experience is different from modern rifles,but it gives us another season to hunt,and can be an awful lot of fun.
 
I like the CVA, not scoped,and it does not shoot well with sabots. Had to find what it liked, conical bullets.
 
I have a CVA Wolf as my inline. I like my other more traditional sidelocks, but the CVA is much more convenient and I have an optic on it which my eyes appreciate at my age. Really, I think of it as a .50-90 sharps without the brass. I load it with 70 grains lf FFF (a revolver powder) triple 7 and it is very accurate with 385 grain Hornady Great Plains minies or a cast 360 grain Lee REAL bullet. I've taken ONE deer with it so far. I've owned it for several years now and plan to use it mostly out here in the woods at our new place when I'm not pistol or bow hunting. I can shoot it just as reliably at 100 yards as any of my center fires and it shoots 1.5"-2" groups at 100 yards.

The CVA Wolf is very easy to clean, tool-less removable breech block. And, one can easily unload after a hunt without shooting the gun and, therefore, needing to clean it just by removing the breech block and knocking out the load with the ram rod. Fixed breech guns like my two Hawkens rifles need to be shot or the bullet pulled or blow out with various devices to unload. The CVA inline is much easier. It only set me back $179 on sale at Gander Mountain. My Cabela's Hawken Hunter Carbine is going for $499 now days last I looked. It's a great traditional gun, Lyman sells similar, both made by Investarms. It has a fast 1:24 twist and works quite well with sabots or the Great Plains bullets, too. It's a good choice if you must use a traditional sidelock, but go with the inline if you have the choice.

BTW, Blackhorn 209 sux. You need a light charge of C4 to set it off. :rolleyes: 777 is easy to ignite and has more power per volume measurement than other subs. Of course, if you can get it, real holy black is the easiest to ignite, the reason I can't get it in Texas without making an order and paying exorbitant shipping charges. I work mostly with Pyrodex and 777 in my rifles and cap and ball revolvers.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys. I had looked at the Savage smokeless muzzleloader but decided it's more gun than I need and more money than I want to spend at this time. I just ordered a CVA Wolf 50 Cal for $190 shipped NIB. I have an old Weaver K4 I think I'll put on it. Reviews seem to be favorable enough for these, and I can always upgrade if we get into this muzzleloader thing in the coming years.

MCgunner... that's the first unfavorable review I've heard about blackhorn powder. Everyone else seems to prefer it. We'll have to see what I can find, anyhow:rolleyes: I'm thinking about trying a .452 260gr LSWC first, but may move to a 250-300gr XTP. Decisions, decisions. For close range deer, I was gonna be looking in the 70-100gr of powder. Any other tips... feel free to post. We have a few months to play around with a load.
 
I have a encore 209x50 and it likes BlackHorn 209. Cleans up easy with Hoppies I have the tip out extractor so I'm able to remove the breach plug easer also it shoots powerbelts quite well. I've also used sabotes with some 430 sized bullets for my 44 mag they also work quite well.
Flip
 
CVAs need a special/modified breechplug to consistently fire BlackHorn 209. CVA offers it as a low-priced option.
I modified the ignition systems on all of my long guns and my Ruger Old Army to use BH 209 because the stuff is almost as clean and non-corrosive as smokeless powder and leaves no gummy residue like 777. The other downside of BH209 is cost.

This is a post from: http://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/t4434-corrosive

Caplock wrote:
Is Blackhorn 209 as corrosive as Pyrodex or Goex?

I'm glad that some one ask that question here, and since I was just getting ready to post in another section I will do it here. BH 209 is not corrosive at all. I seen and read some claims in other forums that it was, and that is BS, and how do I know is not. Well here it is. Last year in Aug. one of my co-workers and me went to the range and shot his TC 50 cal. with a BERGARA barrel on it about 15 times, we did not clean the bore out just took the BP out clean the flash hole channel put it back in and loaded the gun. He use it thru all the season last year, he had it out in cold, rain, and what ever other weather we had here and he even went to OHIO for late ML season. After it was over he brought the gun to the store where we put it in the warehouse which does not have any heat or air what so ever. we would bring it once in a while and put in the store with cooling and heat and them take back to the warehouse. This gun remain loaded until yesterday, well over a year, the bore had not been cleaned since Aug. 2011 and the gun remain loaded. I took it out yesterday when I got to work, to it out back of the store,put a primer in it, and she went off. We took it back in the store, took the BP out wipe it with a rag zero rust like brand new, ran two patches down the bore and it was like mirror, no rust, no pitting, just mirror smooth. So if that does not prove BH is non-corrosive, I don't know what will. Now if you think you can do the same with any other sub out in the market, go for it and let me know how it turns out.
Carlos
 
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My 1st gun was a CVA staghorn magnum. It's decent and shoots ~2" at 100 yds. Imo very good for the money. My dad has a NEF muzzleloader that I like better. I forget which one it is but the reciever can take shotgun and rifle barrels.
 
I picked up a Traditions Buckstalker about a year ago for under $200. There are thing I like about it and a few that I don't, but overall I'm satisfied and if I want to brave the December winds it adds a few more weekends to my hunting season. The break-action muzzleloader is a godsend after my previous muzzleloader. I shoot 250gr XTP .45 caliber (.45 Colt) bullets through it and it's easily accurate enough for deer hunting at 100 yards - the longest range I've shot with it.
 
You'll like the Wolf. Someone on the Black Powder forum has mentioned it loves the powerbelts, too, but I've not tried 'em, probably won't as I don't need the extra range and the things are expensive. They did prove it with pix of a 100 yard one hole group, though.

The other downside of BH209 is cost.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the exorbitant cost is another reason not to like the stuff. But, I simply do NOT like the fact that I have to dribble 5 grains of Pyrodex next to the 209 primer to get the stuff to reliably ignite in my Wolf. I suppose CVA just started offering the breach plug, didn't know about it. I'd cleaned out my breach plug with a tip cleaner, didn't help much. I bought the Buckhorn 209 several years back to try in it. The stuff was relatively new at that time. I was NOT impressed. I'd been wanting something less corrosive, but not at the cost of ignition reliability. I'll keep shooting 777 in the Wolf, though. It works great and cleaning that rifle is NO sweat what with the removable breech plug.

Do NOT try Buckhorn 209 in a side lock. You'll be pulling the ball if you do. It will NOT go off. Buckhorn can acknowledges this with a warning on the label. Again, I lament the fact that I cannot get REAL black powder. I used to shoot Dupont and Goex in my revolvers back in the days before the law prohibited reasonable shipment and storage. I'm probably going to start making my own soon, though. Seems like a fun, easy, and safe (if you ain't an idiot) thing to do and I'm retired with time on my hands. :D Let's just say it's a lot easier and safer than trying to make 2,4,6 trinitrotoluene. Making it saves the hazmat charges and I can make small quantities at a time. If you get interested in THAT, go to the black powder forum and search it, much discussion there.

But, nothing wrong with Pyrodex or 777 in the inline. Neither of those ignites as easy as holy black, though. :D But, I've converted my Hawken Hunter Carbine to fire small rifle primers to deal with Pyrodex in that gun years ago. That gizmo is no longer available. I have found that one can dribble a few grains of Pyrodex under the nipple to avoid the hang and misfires on the sidelocks, but I wouldn't have that problem with holy black. Now, with Buckhorn 209, I'd need to light my cutting torch and remove the nipple. :rolleyes: See, I've been around and around with this ignition thing in my sidelocks, so I'm kinda touchy about such. :D I'll leave all the Buckhorn 209 for you guys, though. I don't mind the clean up, just been part of the black powder routine for me since I got my first cap and ball in 1973. I'm used to it. A little soap and hot water, blow dry and lube, good to go. :D
 
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The Weaver scope should serve you well on that rifle. CVA makes the power belts primarily for their rifles; they are sort of a a hybrid between the modern bullet and the old minnie ball. It makes sense they shoot well out of the CVA.

LD
 
(QUOTE: Do NOT try Buckhorn 209 in a side lock. You'll be pulling the ball if you do. It will NOT go off. Buckhorn can acknowledges this with a warning on the label. Again, I lament the fact that I cannot get REAL black powder. I used to shoot Dupont and Goex in my revolvers back in the days before the law prohibited reasonable shipment and storage.)

You can reliably use BlackHorn 209 in a side lock, I do. However, you have to change out the nipple with a device that uses 209 primers. It is called a "Mag-spark" and is available from Warren Outdoors in Warren, Ohio. http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/
I have never had a problem with ignition of Blackhorn 209 when using a 209 primer but have read about people who needed to use CCI 209 Magnum primers for reliable ignition.
 
You can reliably use BlackHorn 209 in a side lock, I do. However, you have to change out the nipple with a device that uses 209 primers. It is called a "Mag-spark" and is available from Warren Outdoors in Warren, Ohio. http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/
I have never had a problem with ignition of Blackhorn 209 when using a 209 primer but have read about people who needed to use CCI 209 Magnum primers for reliable ignition.
Click to expand...

I have a little gizmo on my Hawken Hunter Carbine that converts it to a small rifle primer. Even with CCI 450 magnum small rifle primers, no go with Blackhorn 209. Don't have a 209 adapter, but I'll pass anyway. There is simply no reason for me to put up with the stuff, especially considering 777 outperforms it. My Hawken seems to prefer Pyrodex, though, for accuracy, so I use Pyrodex RS in that rifle.
 
McGunner, Try Remington 7 1/2s. They are what I use in my ROA. They put out more flame than any other small rifle or small pistol primer. You probably have the forerunner of the Mag-spark called a "Flam-N- Go".
 
As a sort of newbie myself to muzzleloading a few years ago I picked up a used one with scope for $100 and was ready to roll. I was clueless but it was cheap so I bought it. No need to name a brand because that isn't important to the story.
I bought a .45 caliber. Ammo for the .45 is NOT as common as the .50 so I have to go to one particular store to get boolits. That's okay because one package lasts a year.
I had to buy a special tool to remove the breech plug. Holy CRAP that thing is hard to remove. After one shot it takes me like an hour to clean the darned thing and I have literally bent the tool removing the plug.
The trigger is atrocious! 25-30 pounds it feels like. From a rest I can group pretty well at 75 yards but from a deer stand I found that I always pull my shots. After missing two does at about 60-70 yards I borrowed a friend's newer model, .50 cal, in-line and the difference is enormous. It is like shooting a regular center fire and is easily accurate out to 150 yards.
Needless to say the .45 is now a safe queen because a pawn shop won't give me $50 for it. I bought a new rifle last year and spent some decent money but now I have a gun I am happy with. This was one of those times when a little more research and a little more cash(okay, quite a bit more cash) would have saved me a whole lot of headaches.
 
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