This may seem a little bit "off the wall" but it is something that I'm curious about. I would like to know how many of us would jepordize losing our guns to preserve our personal integrity. I realise that this is a broad question, with no specific example, but it has been something that I've been thinking about. What I am asking is would you be willing to do something that may result with the loss of your right to own firearms even though it was the correct moral, responsible and ethical thing to do, or would you rather ignore the situation, look the other way, and not take a chance on loosing your guns ? Which is more important, your integrity or your firearms ???
Ethical Question ...
- Thread starter Autolite
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Josey
member
Hey I would keep my firearms. My life means more than integrity. I see this as one of those impossible to answer correctly questions. I used to get a number of these situational ethics queries from right to lifers.
Snake Eyes
Member
So, what you're really asking is: would you commit a felony?
....Since that is about the only way I can think of to lose my right of firearm ownership.
Right now, I can't think of any felonies I'd feel "morally obligated" to commit. And if I could, I'm not sure I'd post it on the internet.
Maybe somebody else can think up some moral felonies.
Peter
....Since that is about the only way I can think of to lose my right of firearm ownership.
Right now, I can't think of any felonies I'd feel "morally obligated" to commit. And if I could, I'm not sure I'd post it on the internet.
Maybe somebody else can think up some moral felonies.
Peter
Kaylee
Member
The question kinda answers itself, I think. Integrity, always.
That saidTM ... the only thing I can think of to cause said dilemma is contemplating a felony. And well... I can't think of any "in your face" felonies that I'd consider without a LOT of contemplation and a heck of a lot more information.
I say "in your face" 'cause God only knows how many laws I or anyone else has broken without knowing they're on the books....
-K
Devonai
Member
Fortunately, operating within the ethics of classical western culture is always legal in the United States. "Doing the right thing" is a respected act, and I can't think of anything off the top of my head that wouldn't qualify.
Doing something unethical usually effects another person or persons in a negative way, and is usually illegal to begin with. Anything else, like not returning a wallet you found on the street, isn't serious enough to warrant the loss of rights.
Doing something unethical usually effects another person or persons in a negative way, and is usually illegal to begin with. Anything else, like not returning a wallet you found on the street, isn't serious enough to warrant the loss of rights.
Self incrimination is addressed in the CONUS.
Laws are not always moral. Morality and integrity are internal to each person and not always dictated by outside forces.
In my mind, integrity is:
Keeping your word as much as humanly possible.
Owning up to mistakes (while maintaining self preservation in the face of
government sanctions)
Telling the truth (does not apply to enemies and threats to your freedom)
Having a personal code of ethics and sticking to it.
Laws are not always moral. Morality and integrity are internal to each person and not always dictated by outside forces.
In my mind, integrity is:
Keeping your word as much as humanly possible.
Owning up to mistakes (while maintaining self preservation in the face of
government sanctions)
Telling the truth (does not apply to enemies and threats to your freedom)
Having a personal code of ethics and sticking to it.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Hypothetically, an honest man, having no money or connections, and thus having failed to secure an NJ carry permit, can tuck into his concealment holster (10 years) a 17 round (5 years) glock loaded with hollowpoints (5 years) and be liable for 20 years in the slammer.
None of these acts are inherently wrong, and in fact can be argued to be "the right thing", but they are illegal as all get out.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I can think of MANY such situations. As I sit here in my home in Georgia, I am not breaking any laws. If, by some magic, my home and I were suddenly transported to California, New Jersey, or Massachussetts I would suddently turn into a multiple felon. And I would be the same person, owning the same things, and acting in the same way.
jsalcedo
illustrated the question better than myself. "Laws are not always moral". I find that to be true if not a bit of an under statement. Law is suppose to reflect the common morality of the people, but we know this is often not the case, and definitely doesn't cover all circumstances. What do you do when the law and "doing the right", or the responsible thing, conflict? What if doing the right thing could cost you your guns?
(Bear in mind that I used the conditional phrase "could cost you your guns". I am saying that it could go either way. You would be taking a gamble ...)
illustrated the question better than myself. "Laws are not always moral". I find that to be true if not a bit of an under statement. Law is suppose to reflect the common morality of the people, but we know this is often not the case, and definitely doesn't cover all circumstances. What do you do when the law and "doing the right", or the responsible thing, conflict? What if doing the right thing could cost you your guns?
(Bear in mind that I used the conditional phrase "could cost you your guns". I am saying that it could go either way. You would be taking a gamble ...)
WhoKnowsWho
Member
Another good example is what you would do when faced with an armed psycho gunning down kids in a public school.
Federal law says discharching within 1000ft of said school gets you jail time.
Do you draw and pull the trigger? Once you do, you go to jail and lose your gun owning rights.
Unless you make a 333yd shot with your rifle down the street...
Federal law says discharching within 1000ft of said school gets you jail time.
Do you draw and pull the trigger? Once you do, you go to jail and lose your gun owning rights.
Unless you make a 333yd shot with your rifle down the street...
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
WKW, that's not exactly true. The law of competing harms would be your defense in that situation. You would argue that you were faced with two evils, either breaking the letter of the law or allowing the violent attack to continue. You chose the lesser of two evils and are thus not liable for the laws that had to be broken in the process. Ayoob wrote a more detailed explanation of the process.
The flaws are:
1. You MUST argue this defense in order to have it work! As I understand it, Bernie Goetz's attorney didn't bring it up.
2. Some juries, and especially some prosecutors, will still go for the throat. Witness the Ron Dixon case in New Yawk.
3. This defense would only work if you were actually forced to use your weapon. If you lean over the counter at Hardee's and a local cop notices that you're printing, that will be a whole different story and you'll likely be convicted.
To answer the question that I believe was being raised, I choose my integrity. When in doubt, you might as well, because there are so many variables that it's hard to predict whether you'd actually be convicted or whatever it is to which you're referring.
However, I do not carry a loaded gun in Illinois--I comply with the law. I don't see carrying a gun as a matter of personal integrity. YMMV.
The flaws are:
1. You MUST argue this defense in order to have it work! As I understand it, Bernie Goetz's attorney didn't bring it up.
2. Some juries, and especially some prosecutors, will still go for the throat. Witness the Ron Dixon case in New Yawk.
3. This defense would only work if you were actually forced to use your weapon. If you lean over the counter at Hardee's and a local cop notices that you're printing, that will be a whole different story and you'll likely be convicted.
To answer the question that I believe was being raised, I choose my integrity. When in doubt, you might as well, because there are so many variables that it's hard to predict whether you'd actually be convicted or whatever it is to which you're referring.
However, I do not carry a loaded gun in Illinois--I comply with the law. I don't see carrying a gun as a matter of personal integrity. YMMV.
TearsOfRage
Member
It may not be time yet, but in the future, I can imagine lots of things I might have to do if certain situations arose... and loss of the government's permission to legally own a firearm will probably be the least of the consequences.
seeker_two
Member
Integrity and morality will win out over any man-made law...
Too bad that outlaws can't get guns...
Too bad that outlaws can't get guns...
To me maintaining my integrity and upholding my God given Constitutionally upheld right to self preservation go hand in hand.
So to answer the question I would choose my firearms to maintain my integrity.
Obviously the question has some falicies and too many variables... I think Byron Quick's example best decribes the confusion off the question.
So to answer the question I would choose my firearms to maintain my integrity.
Obviously the question has some falicies and too many variables... I think Byron Quick's example best decribes the confusion off the question.
LiquidTension
Member
Defending yourself is usually considered the "right thing to do" unless you're in one of those "special" places like California, Boston, etc. In that case, you'd be doing the right thing by shooting an intruder but you'd lose your rights to have firearms because of any number of stupid laws. Was it Ron Dixon that had this happen to him? I forget. Somebody up in NY.
I think if you allowed an intruder to kill your family just because you were afraid of losing your guns, you'd have no integrity left. Obviously this is a ridiculous example, but you DID ask
I think if you allowed an intruder to kill your family just because you were afraid of losing your guns, you'd have no integrity left. Obviously this is a ridiculous example, but you DID ask
DigitalWarrior
Member
Even with my life!
I hope that I will hold to my ethical convictions as long as I draw breath. The only place for a just man in an unjust society is in that society's jails.
Having never been in that circumstance, I do not know how I will act. I pray for strength and resolve.
I hope that I will hold to my ethical convictions as long as I draw breath. The only place for a just man in an unjust society is in that society's jails.
Having never been in that circumstance, I do not know how I will act. I pray for strength and resolve.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Sorry, but the question is too vague and open-ended to answer.
JohnBT
Member
I'm lost.
Do you mean something like:
You were cruising around with friends and got stopped and the cop found your bag of dope in the backseat and your friend got busted? Now you want to know if you should admit to it and get your friend off the hook and put yourself on it?
If that's not what you mean then what do you mean? See what I mean?
John
Do you mean something like:
You were cruising around with friends and got stopped and the cop found your bag of dope in the backseat and your friend got busted? Now you want to know if you should admit to it and get your friend off the hook and put yourself on it?
If that's not what you mean then what do you mean? See what I mean?
John
Integrity, first, last and always.
As a kid, I read somewhere (paraphrasing) "Live each day prepared to face death." Might have been Musashi, don't remember. Made a lot of sense then and it still does. There's a lot more to that simple statement than meets the eye. I translated this as, if I dropped dead in the next few seconds, is there anything I would regret not having done. Anyone I owe an apology, have I told my kids or spouse or family I love them lately, anyone I owe money to (friends, not creditors), I've always tried (not always successfully) to live this way. Works for me.
In the military "I was just following orders." does not make a good defense. I think when we die, "I was just obeying the law." wouldn't hold a lot of water with whatever deity you worship or whatever religion you follow.
I've thought about situations where I could conceivably commit a felony that would result in loss of guns, jail time, even possibly the death penalty if I committed a certain act (crime). Would I still do it? If I thought it was morally and ethically right, yes.
As a kid, I read somewhere (paraphrasing) "Live each day prepared to face death." Might have been Musashi, don't remember. Made a lot of sense then and it still does. There's a lot more to that simple statement than meets the eye. I translated this as, if I dropped dead in the next few seconds, is there anything I would regret not having done. Anyone I owe an apology, have I told my kids or spouse or family I love them lately, anyone I owe money to (friends, not creditors), I've always tried (not always successfully) to live this way. Works for me.
In the military "I was just following orders." does not make a good defense. I think when we die, "I was just obeying the law." wouldn't hold a lot of water with whatever deity you worship or whatever religion you follow.
I've thought about situations where I could conceivably commit a felony that would result in loss of guns, jail time, even possibly the death penalty if I committed a certain act (crime). Would I still do it? If I thought it was morally and ethically right, yes.
BHPshooter
Member
I agree, but there are many religions that also state that they believe in obeying laws... Mine is one of them.
That said, I would still do what I believe is right.
Wes
Thanks All ...
Good replies. I just wanted opinion on the subject. The situation is not hypothetical. A relatively minor incident has transpired in my neck of the woods recently were a fella I know had to make a decision that could have jeopardized his gun owning privilages. The fella chose to "do the right thing" and he carried it out in a responsible manner. However, it required that he disregard a specific firearms law and the result may be the confiscation of his firearms. I was just wondering if whether y'all felt the fella was an idiot or not for placing personal ethics above the law...
Good replies. I just wanted opinion on the subject. The situation is not hypothetical. A relatively minor incident has transpired in my neck of the woods recently were a fella I know had to make a decision that could have jeopardized his gun owning privilages. The fella chose to "do the right thing" and he carried it out in a responsible manner. However, it required that he disregard a specific firearms law and the result may be the confiscation of his firearms. I was just wondering if whether y'all felt the fella was an idiot or not for placing personal ethics above the law...
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
Kaylee,
That saidTM ... the only thing I can think of to cause said dilemma is contemplating a felony. And well... I can't think of any "in your face" felonies that I'd consider without a LOT of contemplation and a heck of a lot more information.
I say "in your face" 'cause God only knows how many laws I or anyone else has broken without knowing they're on the books.... "
Well put (but for yer lack, I'd guess, based on the following .... )
Lautenberg dissed your further posssession of firearms based on any "domestic disturbance."
Kiss 'em G'Bye. & Misdomeanors, mind you, not felonies.
In any event, that's The Law, & as an LEO, right or not, we'll all be accounted as such. Project Exile & such.
All a good thing, no?
Everybody ever tagged for[][any[/I] "domestic violence"-thing is forever dissed from possession.
Something we can all buy into?
That saidTM ... the only thing I can think of to cause said dilemma is contemplating a felony. And well... I can't think of any "in your face" felonies that I'd consider without a LOT of contemplation and a heck of a lot more information.
I say "in your face" 'cause God only knows how many laws I or anyone else has broken without knowing they're on the books.... "
Well put (but for yer lack, I'd guess, based on the following .... )
Lautenberg dissed your further posssession of firearms based on any "domestic disturbance."
Kiss 'em G'Bye. & Misdomeanors, mind you, not felonies.
In any event, that's The Law, & as an LEO, right or not, we'll all be accounted as such. Project Exile & such.
All a good thing, no?
Everybody ever tagged for[][any[/I] "domestic violence"-thing is forever dissed from possession.
Something we can all buy into?
duckfoot
member
Integrity
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