Ever had a gun sale go bad while in the process

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The first group are the CarMax buyers and sellers. They either don't how or don't like negotiating prices. Just tell me how much it is and I'll pay it.

The second group thinks everything is negotiable until the ink is signed on the contract or money has changed hands.

Reading the posts it is the CarMax group doing the complaining.
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The third, unmentioned group is the overwhelming majority here, and we're the ones saying that it's negotiable until an agreement is reached, after which time the negotiations cease and consideration is tendered for goods in the agreed upon sum. A change in dollar amount being offered or in the goods being transferred from what is agreed to results in the the contract being void.

There are a few who don't want to bother, and will list their for sale items at rock bottom price, or pay the advertised price that they can agree with. No fault in that.

There are but a couple of people who have stated that they believe it is acceptable to attempt to reopen negotiation after an agreement has been reached. However, they state this from a buying standpoint; probably view things very differently if you propose to them a seller reopening negotiation to get a higher price.
 
I have bought more than one gun on Gunbroker with an inspection period that was not as described. Contacted the seller and we had a discussion as to weather to return it for a full refund minus shipping or settle on a lower price that was agreeable to both parties. Kept a couple and returned a couple.
 
goon said:
Who agrees on a price for a gun they can't see in person though?
.
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Anybody who has bought a firearm online, that's who. If, when you actually have the gun in your hands, and it's not as described or advertised, then you can either refuse the gun or ask for a better price.

But that's not what we are discussing, is it?

We are discussing an agreed upon price for a gun that is exactly what the pictures and description claimed it was and a buyer who wants to reneg on the agreement. Surely you understand the difference...
 
Misunderstanding and the two parties are firm...no deal. You have wiggle room...sell it for less 25. He could have offered to mail you 25 next payday.
 
He could have done a lot of things. He did nothing but search his empty wallet. I would have waited for him to go home, "since he lived 5 minutes from me", and bring me a check or cash, he made no such offer, just sat there. Don't forget he inspected the gun the day before, and said it was immaculate.
 
BSA1 said:
What it boils down is we have two different group of buyers and sellers.

The first group are the CarMax buyers and sellers. They either don't how or don't like negotiating prices. Just tell me how much it is and I'll pay it.

The second group thinks everything is negotiable until the ink is signed on the contract or money has changed hands.

Reading the posts it is the CarMax group doing the complaining.
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No more whining than those folks supporting backing out on an agreed price at the last moment and using theatrics like claimin' it's a X-mas gift for your son and you have absolutely no other money on you.

I have haggled or negotiated on car and firearm prices since I turned 20 some 40 years ago. I have witnessed every sneaky sales trick in the book by used car salesmen and gun show vendors. I have yet to have them back out at the point of sale, after mutually agreeing on a price and want more money. Nor have I invented a lame story in an attempt to get a lower price after doing the same. The OP met the intended buyer after agreeing on a price. It's obvious to most of us that the intended buyer was lying thru his teeth to save $25. The negotiations were not only verbal, but via e-mail. I see no whining about what the intended buyer did, only disgust and frustration from those that have had lowlifes try and pull the same crap on them. Folks here claiming it was just fine to do what the intended buyer did, and do it themselves all the time, is clear evidence that to some folks that their word means nuttin' and lying is okay as long as you save some money. IMHO, for those that disagree, they have a valid whine.
 
Met a fellow at a gun show who was interested in my gun but did not have enough cash, I gave him my phone number. He called, we talked on the phone, agreed on a price and I went and met the guy. He showed up with $50 less than the agreed upon price in a cheesy attempt trying to get it cheaper. I went home with my gun and the cheapskate without a gun.
 
Real World

“Ah, so you bought it for the price agreed upon, unlike in the OP's example where the buyer tried to get it for less than the price agreed upon.”

If you will reread my post you will find that when the salesman came back out he told me they would not lower the price which was $ 500.00.

At this point the CarMax folks would either purchase the gun or walk away.

I, on the other hand, continued to engage the salesman in negotiations and they ended up lowering the price by $ 50.00 after they told me they could not do so.

"The third, unmentioned group is the overwhelming majority here,"

No there isn’t. There are only two types of groups here.

"and we're the ones saying that it's negotiable until an agreement is reached, after which time the negotiations cease and consideration is tendered for goods in the agreed upon sum. A change in dollar amount being offered or in the goods being transferred from what is agreed to results in the the contract being void. "

Exactly! The perfect description of a legal agreement and transaction. Until the agreement is signed or money exchanges hands both parties have the right to walk away from the deal.

Look at this way. You are at a car dealership, find the car you want and tell the salesman they you want the car and agree on a purchase price on the lot. Heck for the “OLD SCHOOL” guys you even SHAKE HANDS on the deal. However on the way to the office or while in the office you have a little time to think it over and decide it either isn’t what you really wanted (maybe a slick salesman who did that to my in-laws once) or the price you agreed to is too high. But you made a offer that was accepted by the sales representative of the company…AND YOU EVEN SHOOK HANDS…Done deal right???

"There are a few who drock bottom price, or paon't want to bother, and will list their for sale items at y the advertised price that they can agree with. No fault in that."

Agreed. That’s how CarMax sell their vehicles. As a matter of fact my daughter brought a car from them once at a much lower price than Blue Book.

"There are but a couple of people who have stated that they believe it is acceptable to attempt to reopen negotiation after an agreement has been reached. However, they state this from a buying standpoint; probably view things very differently if you propose to them a seller reopening negotiation to get a higher price."

This is the heart of effective negotiating. When negotiating everything is (or should be) on the table. In our grandparents day it was called horsetrading or just good old give and take by both sides. Another term it is called is bartering. There is nothing that says you, as the seller, cannot counter offer with a higher price. For example let’s say the gun is semi-auto with three extra magazines. You counter offer by agreeing to the buyers bid but without the extra magazines (in other words you have raised the price by withdrawing the extra magazines from the deal). You are using the extra magazines as a negotiating tool to get the most money you can for your item.


"I have haggled or negotiated on car and firearm prices since I turned 20 some 40 years ago. I have witnessed every sneaky sales trick in the book by used car salesmen and gun show vendors. I have yet to have them back out at the point of sale, after mutually agreeing on a price and want more money."

Car salesman love to haggle but they have a certain price they cannot go below. Until they reach that price it is negotiable on their end. As a good employee for my dealership while my goal is to get as high of price as possible to increase my commission I may well accept the bottom price for other reasons (maybe we are having salesman of the month contest for whoever sells the most vehicles). Regardless both myself and the company make money on the deal or they would not stay in business. It should be this way in any business transaction.

Come on guys. Quit acting like kids. I had a gun listed for sale on THR and a member PM’d me and said he would buy the gun. We concluded the deal, how payment was to be made and sent him my address to mail payment to. I even posted the gun had been sold and closed the thread. A few hours later he PM’d and backed out of the deal. Sure I was disappointed but that the ways things are in the real world.
 
You the seller have the ultimate power, the power of yes and no. Though they have the money which is very powerful depending on your circumstances....need to pay a bill, yes its powerful. You don't really need the money, not so powerful, a sale can wait. I think you did the right thing personally, and I have been there before, not afraid to walk away from a deal where a firm agreement is in place and the other party tries to change the agreement at the moment of truth.
 
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A deal is a deal, that's one of the oldest sayings around. It's simple and speaks to everything there is to know about buying and selling. Once you inspect the product or "in the service business" pay for services "as they are being represented", then the dealing is over. Except Legally, In FL you have 3 days to back out of a contract , if it is for future goods or services, I know this well as I owned a large health club in Deerfield Beach.
http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/main/18c35b713adbd1ad85256cc90053b3bc!opendocument,
It allows people 3 days to cancel their contract, "in my case" after the deal is made.
It is a real pain in the as when dealing with impulse sales. "of which a great percentage of gym membership purchases are".
I have been out of that business for 15 years and haven't kept up on the laws, but it allowed someone to "back out and cancel" what could amount to thousands of dollars, for no reason other than buyers remorse.
If you live here in Florida, it's a good thing to be aware of. It supersedes all other written or verbal contracts. "or at least it did" when I was in the business. It wouldn't apply in this case for several reasons, "mostly because you usually don't tell a stranger where you live, and it is a "dry goods' sale rather than a service, "although people have been known to try to use it for many other things.
If you think the car business is seedy, try selling a dream to people. They are leaving with a sheet of paper and a commitment to pay either all in one shot or monthly for 12, 24 or 36 months.
At least in a car or gun deal you are leaving with something, we sold air. It was good air if you used it, and the 2 million in equipment was there for members with the discipline to take advantage of it, but air is what they left with.
But getting back on track, no matter how you dissect this he inspected it prior to the passing of any money and was more than happy with the product. It just comes down to someone who was looking to get it for less than the agreed upon price, that's it...
 
You acted according to your principles, your values and your understanding of how the world should work.

You don't need validation or approval from anyone else for having done so.
 
I, on the other hand, continued to engage the salesman in negotiations and they ended up lowering the price by $ 50.00 after they told me they could not do so.
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Not the same.

What do you think would have happened if you got them to agree to $450, and then once the sale was being rung up, told them you would only pay $425? That's what this thread is about.

No there isn’t. There are only two types of groups here.
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Now you're being deliberately obtuse.

group 1: price isn't set until goods and consideration are transferred.

group 2: price isn't negotiable

group 3: price is agreed upon, and then goods and consideration change hands according to the agreement. This is known as a contract, and is the way ethical business is conducted when there is room for negotiation.

You may believe you can haggle right up to the end, but be prepared to not receive the goods or services you're expecting as a result.

I own an auto repair shop, sometimes I will negotiate a little bit on a larger repair bills. But if a customer shows to pick up their car and tries to reopen negotiations to get a lower price, not only will they not get their vehicle back until they pay the price according to our original agreement, but they will never receive my services again.

Offer, acceptance, transfer. Whether goods or services, step two is where price is set. If it is not a negotiable price, then step two is determined by the buyer only. If it is negotiable, then buyer and seller must both accept the offer. It is very simple.

There seems to be a disconnect here. Either you're not getting it, or are refusing to acknowledge the difference between negotiating and then agreeing, versus agreeing and then attempting to negotiate further.
 
Which is how dumb people end up with leans on their homes. Sometimes not even knowing it until they go to sell, and see you as a creditor, for auto repairs, a roof etc
 
Not the same.

What do you think would have happened if you got them to agree to $450, and then once the sale was being rung up, told them you would only pay $425? That's what this thread is about.

No it is not. And you know it.

Quote:
No there isn’t. There are only two types of groups here.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse.

group 1: price isn't set until goods and consideration are transferred.

group 2: price isn't negotiable

group 3: price is agreed upon, and then goods and consideration change hands according to the agreement. This is known as a contract, and is the way ethical business is conducted when there is room for negotiation.You may believe you can haggle right up to the end, but be prepared to not receive the goods or services you're expecting as a result.

Fair enough. Both parties have the right to walk away from the deal until ink is on paper or money exchanges hands.

I own an auto repair shop, sometimes I will negotiate a little bit on a larger repair bills. But if a customer shows to pick up their car and tries to reopen negotiations to get a lower price, not only will they not get their vehicle back until they pay the price according to our original agreement, but they will never receive my services again.

If allowed by law that is your right.

Offer, acceptance, transfer. Whether goods or services, step two is where price is set. If it is not a negotiable price, then step two is determined by the buyer only. If it is negotiable, then buyer and seller must both accept the offer. It is very simple.

There seems to be a disconnect here. Either you're not getting it, or are refusing to acknowledge the difference between negotiating and then agreeing, versus agreeing and then attempting to negotiate further."

I am usually a Group B person although will jump on a deal without haggling if I want it bad enough.
__________________
"Life is harder when you're stupid. Sometimes, it's also quite a bit shorter."-1911Tuner

Pretty slick way calling someone stupid. I guess respect and courteous disagreement isn't one of your ethics or following the rules of THR is it?

But in the interest of fairness I will give you the last word and not post any more comments.
 
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This is related but not "quite" on-topic. However, since auto repair came into this thread, here's my story on that.

When I was young and healthy I did ALL my own work on EVERYTHING but in this instance I just didn't have the time and my wife's car needed work.

I took it to a well-known big-name service center, got an estimate on what I asked to have done and sat in the waiting room. Five customers were ahead of me. Each and every time, when a customer was called to pay out, their bill was 1.3-2x what the "written/signed" estimate was. All of them objected but paid the bill anyway... all five. I was ready when they called me to the register, They gave me a bill 1.5x the estimate and when I asked why they stated 60K mile this and it's time for that... yadda yadda yadda. I said, "No, I won't pay it. I'll pay the agreed/signed estimate". They said, "But these other things are needed. Don't you want the car to be reliable and safe?" I said, "Of course I do. Show me the parts you removed... the fuel filter, spark plugs, etc." They pulled them out of the trash and I asked, "Okay, how do you know the fuel filter is bad? What's wrong with these spark plugs... they look excellent to me and... did you even ask if I'd already replaced the plugs and the fuel filter and when? Please put all the old parts back and charge me the agreed price." The manager said, "No, we'll leave the parts on. You only owe what you agreed to."

I learned later... that well-known name-brand service center is notorious for such behavior... and for complete incompetence. Individuals can be just as scheme-ish as any corporation.

Whichever side of the deal you're on, stand up for what's right... either way.
 
Gym -

Synopsis:
You agreed to sell for $525
He inspected the gun the day before
You met him to exchange money for firearm - after the price was agreed, after the inspection was made
He tried to snooker you out of an extra $25 at the last minute
You walked

You were absolutely right to walk. He inspected it, he agreed to a price, and then he reneged. He wasn't a good faith negotiator. In short, he lied. I wouldn't sell him a sip of water in the desert.
 
Both parties have the right to walk away from the deal until ink is on paper or money exchanges hands
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Absolutely. Agreeing to a price and committing to purchase are not the same thing, although I'd say if you haggle and come to an agreement, you should complete the deal according to that agreement-especially if you have made the other party invest time, such as driving to a meet location.

But backing out of a deal for whatever reason is not the same as lying to try to cheat someone out of a few more dollars. And if one is being truthful about not having the money, then one should not agree to a sum they cannot pay.

I took it to a well-known big-name service center, got an estimate on what I asked to have done and sat in the waiting room. Five customers were ahead of me. Each and every time, when a customer was called to pay out, their bill was 1.3-2x what the "written/signed" estimate was. All of them objected but paid the bill anyway... all five. I was ready when they called me to the register, They gave me a bill 1.5x the estimate and when I asked why they stated 60K mile this and it's time for that... yadda yadda yadda. I said, "No, I won't pay it. I'll pay the agreed/signed estimate". They said, "But these other things are needed. Don't you want the car to be reliable and safe?" I said, "Of course I do. Show me the parts you removed... the fuel filter, spark plugs, etc." They pulled them out of the trash and I asked, "Okay, how do you know the fuel filter is bad? What's wrong with these spark plugs... they look excellent to me and... did you even ask if I'd already replaced the plugs and the fuel filter and when? Please put all the old parts back and charge me the agreed price." The manager said, "No, we'll leave the parts on. You only owe what you agreed to."
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Though a fairly extreme example, what you experienced is not uncommon at all. It's usually more like 5%-15%, and then tax on top of that. I still see it as unethical, though, which is why I chose to run my shop differently. I don't charge shop supply fees, and tax is already figured when I give the estimate. What I tell the customer the total will be is the maximum; sometimes I even knock it down a little. Very common practice for me to quote slightly higher than what I expect the total to be, such as rounding parts tax up to 10% when giving the estimate, but reflecting the correct 7.9% when I actually do the invoice.

Nearly two decades in this business has taught me first and foremost that honesty & integrity are paramount, but also that people are universally happy when the repairs are completed ahead of schedule and under budget.

I now have a business that is never lacking for customers, and customers who do not question the recommendations. In fact, quite a few of them tell me not to even bother calling them first if the repair cost doesn't exceed a certain amount.
 
MachIVshooter... You are a rare bird regarding auto mechanics. Of all the mechanics I've ever dealt with I can count on three fingers those who I'd recommend and one of them was bought out by a big corporation... so that's two remaining I'd recommend. I'm fortunate enough to live near one of those I trust.:)

I hate haggling too but sometimes it's necessary. It's just the way things are... but we can cut our losses walk away if we choose. It depends on the particular circumstances. I once sold a camera lens to a fellow who brought all the cash but asked me for a very small discount because his dog needed to go to the vet. He said he was a man of his word and would follow through 100 percent as agreed. He said he could give me the rest in a couple of weeks. It was only a very small percentage so I told him to not worry about it. Was he a good scam artist? I'll never know. :)
 
What do you think would have happened if you got them to agree to $450, and then once the sale was being rung up, told them you would only pay $425? That's what this thread is about.
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No it is not. And you know it.
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It's not?
What is it about, then?

As I read it, they meet so the buyer can inspect the gun. They agree on the price. The next day they meet for the exchange and the buyer hands the seller the cash, which is $25 short. He never mentions that to the seller. When the seller says it's $25 short, the buyer says that's all he has. The seller gives the money back and leaves with the gun.

So, what did I miss that you read?
 
Bought a 1905 Finn Mosin off a friend not too long ago, he said he'd let it go for $200, I offered $150, so we met in the middle at $175. That was a great deal, but I wasn't in dire need to buy the rifle, so I wasn't willing to pay a lot. although, I'm glad I didn't. the bore was quite pitted and rusty. I still owe him $15, I'm waiting for him to come get it.

But I didn't haggle him after an agreed price, and that's the way I play.
 
My only bad gun deals were ones where we just couldn't come to terms on the price. Sometimes deals just fall through. I knew what I was willing to pay, and he knew what he needed to get. No harm, no foul.
 
OP, you did exactly what you should have done. The price was agreed upon by both parties, and the buyer had a chance to inspect the goods before paying.

I'm not interested in drama, sob stories, etc. If you can't afford to pay the agreed upon price negotiated by both parties, then move along.
 
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