Evolution of the M855A1 Round

Status
Not open for further replies.

Slamfire

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
13,232
Location
Alabama
I thought this article might be of interest to those who shoot AR15's. Notice that the bullet is copper core with steel penetrator front.

The article is written by the Product Manager, who is an advocate/salesman for the program, so don't expect total objectivity.

I really don't believe the statement that on average, the M855A1 surpasses the M80 7.62 mm round. Unfortunately the tests that this statement is based on is not in the public domain.

http://asc.army.mil/altmag/

Look for page 35, article "The Evolution of the M855A1 5.56 Enhanced Performance Round, 1960-2010"

I did not think this was a handloading issue, and as this part of the M4/M16 weapon system, I posted it here.
 
SlamFire1 said:
I really don't believe the statement that on average, the M855A1 surpasses the M80 7.62 mm round.

Actually, I can believe that. The previous M855, on average, surpassed the M80 round in ballistics gel destruction. There are plenty of tests on that that are available to the public.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3385379
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8547160

All in all, M80 ball is just not impressive in terminal ballistics; but that is more of a bullet design issue than a caliber issue.
 
Interesting. While I read the article quickly, looks like a decent summary of ammo evolution.

Depending on what your tests are exactly, the 7.62 with M80 could indeed be surpassed by M855A1. I'd like to see the M855A1 technology/design used to upgrade the 7.62 NATO. Be expensive, but worth it. :cool:
 
That is an interesting article. I wonder if this new fodder will be made available to civilians. I wouldn't mind doing a little testing of my own with some, especially if expansion and/or fragmentation is improved (as the article suggests).

:)
 
Though I believe that a gas piston gas system in an AR would optimal, the M4 is an excellent rifle.

M4 platforms fail in combat due to poor maintenance, or because they were deployed in capacities other than designed.

Regarding current M855.... we can always do better, and always strive to do so. Is 6.8 the answer? The potential is there, but we are not going to see Uncle Sam adopt it and/or a new weapon system anytime soon. In the meantime, capitalistic R&D may come up with something better.
 
I read some discussion of this and the Mk318 on another website (cough m4c cough). Dr. Fackler took a pretty dim view of the M855A1. As far as I can tell, it does only two things:
-slightly better penetration of hard armor, which is good
-no lead, so the green side of the Army is pleased

It apparently does nothing to improve on M855 in terms of terminal effectiveness or penetration of more common barriers - while the already fielded (in limited quantities) Mk 318 improves both dramatically.

Just my 1 cent, and I certainly don't intend to reopen the tired debate of whether M855 is "adequate" whatever that means.
 
pro2 said:
Though I believe that a gas piston gas system in an AR would optimal, the M4 is an excellent rifle.

M4 platforms fail in combat due to poor maintenance, or because they were deployed in capacities other than designed.

Regarding current M855.... we can always do better, and always strive to do so. Is 6.8 the answer? The potential is there, but we are not going to see Uncle Sam adopt it and/or a new weapon system anytime soon. In the meantime, capitalistic R&D may come up with something better.
What does any of this have to do with the new M855A1 cartridge? I suppose because you mentioned its predecessor, then went on to change the subject...again. :rolleyes:
 
Do you think it would work better if I attached as a file to a post or do you think it would have the same affect? If you want I can take it down.
 
I was interested in the M855A1 article, but started laughing so hard when I saw an article claiming fielding of Multicam in Afghanistan was a "rapid response" to a detected problem that I had to stop. :rolleyes:
 
This is what a professional that test ammo for a living had to say about this new cartridge:

Posted by DocGKR on m4carabine.net some time ago.
"Sorry, but I am not impressed. M855A1 EPR would make nice linked MG ammo, but is NOT my first choice for a carbine or rifle. It doesn't help that the recent Big Army briefings on the topic are filled with misleading statements and outright falsehoods. For example, in the public briefing shown above:

Page 2 touts match like accuracy for M855A1 EPR, yet the acceptance standard allows for up to 5.5 MOA accuracy—hardly match like. In contrast, Mk318 has a 2 MOA acceptance standard.

Page 3 seems impressive, but fails to offer details.

Page 4 is worrisome, as it indicates that M855A1 EPR has a higher chamber pressure compared with current M855. Port pressure on the M4 is already too high, what is the increased chamber/port pressure of M855A1 EPR going to do to bolt life and barrel life on M4’s? How come Army ammo is only getting flash suppressed in 2010? Why wasn’t this incorporated for the past 50 years?

Page 5 is partially true, as M855A1 EPR is indeed less yaw dependent than M855, but then so is Mk318. The 7.62 mm comparison is a bit misleading; for example, to which version of M80 ball are they referring, the steel jacket or the copper jacket, as terminal performance is different.

Page 6 is highly inaccurate, as it states that both M855A1 EPR and M855 have good performance against car windows, yet this is patently untrue. Likewise it states that both M855A1 EPR and M855 offer good accuracy—this is not always correct, as some recent lots of M855 have been pushing 6 MOA. It also states that both M855A1 EPR and M855 have a trajectory match with M856 trace—this is not true, as all three cartridges offer different trajectories, as has been demonstrated by previous Doppler radar tracking and accuracy testing. Some Army sources have stated that units are NOT required to re-zero when transitioning to M855A1 EPR; this is a gross error of judgment that could result in needless fatalities.

Page 7 does not accurately reflect the trajectory differences between the various rounds due to the truncated scale—it would be better to provide the numerical data recorded when actually shooting the various cartridges side-by-side at different distances. Let's take an M16A4 or M4 and set a target out at 500-600; then we will shoot 10 rounds of M855, 10 rounds of M856, and 10 rounds of M855A1 EPR and compare the POA/POI for each cartridge type––guess what, they will NOT be the same. So much for having the same trajectory...

Page 8 illustrates the POOR terminal performance characteristics of M855A1 EPR against automobile windshields—look how the projectile has fragmented into separate pieces after first hitting the windshield; it is galling that the briefing tries to make this sound like a good thing by claiming it increases the probability of a hit. True barrier blind projectiles do NOT come apart like M855A1 EPR. Notice that no actual gel photos or wound profiles are included.

Page 9 implies that 5.56 mm M855A1 EPR offers better terminal performance than a 7.62 mm projectile—this may be true when comparing EPR from 2010 against 1950’s era technology like M80 FMJ, but not if a true apples-to-apples comparison is made against a modern 7.62 mm cartridge. For example compare M855A1 EPR against M80A1 EPR or Mk319. Page 9 also states that M855A1 EPR can defeat soft Kevlar armor rated against handguns—yet most center rifle projectiles can defeat soft armor. It also implies that M855A1 EPR can also penetrate some Level III armor; this is true, as M855A1 EPR can defeat compressed polyethelene hard armor plates, of course current M855 already does that. What M855A1 EPR cannot accomplish is penetrating current eSAPI armor. If we go into combat against a true peer competitor nation who issues equivalent hard armor, M855A1 EPR is going to be useless.

Page 10: M855A1 EPR does penetrate steel and cinder block better than M855.

Page 11 has nothing to do with terminal ballistics, but is correct, as far as it goes.

Page 12: M855A1 EPR is generally more accurate than M855, but as noted, both share the same accuracy standard; if the Army is really believes M855A1 EPR is more accurate, why not adopt a tighter accuracy standard like as required in the Mk318 or Mk262 contracts?

Page 13 repeats the comments that M855A1 EPR offers better performance than M80 ball, but that is not a fair comparison, as previously stated.

The M855A1 EPR program is a damning indictment of the utter FAILURE of the Army procurement system to rapidly and effectively respond to the needs of our Nations troops—especially in time of war. This incomplete briefing is flawed at best, insulting at worst. Why has it taken over a decade and hundreds of millions of tax payer funds to develop what is essentially a product improved 1960’s era Bronze Tip bullet? How come M855A1 EPR costs twice as much as Mk318 and is also more expensive than even Mk262 and 70 gr Optimal/brown tip?

There are other serious and significant issues that are not touched on in this public briefing; suffice to say that there are good reasons why the Marine Corps and USSOCOM are issuing Mk318 Mod0 and not M855A1 EPR."
 
While I do trust his judgement a lot more than my own as he is a professional with bullets and cartridges. When he made those comments as far as I know he hadn't tested any of the rounds. I'm sure he knows more than me about it but the Army and Marines both seem to feel it is good. Some would say the Army is biased and I can understand why but the Marines wouldn't be. Now I don't know if the Marines have used it in actual combat or just testing but I found an article with what the program manager for ammunition, of Marine Corps Systems Command says about it. However something I noticed about the article is that they say it has a copper penetrator instead of a steel one which I know is wrong. The picture also isn't the M855A1 but that may be intentional.

I'm not trying to say DocGKR is wrong, in case it seems like I am, just that as far as I know the only ones that can test it and know for sure what it is like are the Army and Marines(the rest of the US military may possibly have access to it but I don't know) and they both say that, in testing at least, it is pretty good. While the Army could be lying, since they made it, I don't really see a reason for the Marines to, since they already have the MK318.

http://marinesmagazine.dodlive.mil/2010/12/13/green-bullets/
 
Probably because at a certain level in the echelons above reality both Army and Marine Corps leadership are not solely and purely interested in getting the best killing tools to the guys at the sharp end. We've been at war for nearly a decade and the powers that be continue to unveil such winning jackassery as the army ACU uniform and the USMC's "improved" body armor that requires an assistant to put on. Some really good stuff, too, but "helped make troops vaguely more lethal to an unquantifiable extent" is a weaker OER bullet statement than "put Army/USMC on path to zero lead footprint at CONUS posts by 2014" or whatever. Should it? No. But does it? Yeah.

Or, as I tell my Joes when no one too senior is around and listening -- never forget that in wartime there are two distinct groups trying to kill you: the enemy, and your chain of command. You have to get the job done and survive the worst both can throw at you.
 
As I said the Marines already have MK318 though. Something that is cheaper. So why would they lie about it? They don't make it either. The ACU was generally accepted as a good uniform from what I heard. The camouflage pattern is what was mostly criticized. It worked fine in Iraq's desert and urban areas but doesn't work well in Afghanistan's woodland or green areas. As for the MTV it doesn't really require an assistant, someone can help but for an extra 3 pounds they really shouldn't be needed, it is just slightly heavier but better in every other way.

If you wanna believe that M855A1 isn't as good as they say that is fine, there is no way to really know if it is better, worse,(or how much better or worse it is) or the same for any of us until we see it tested with our own eyes or use it in combat, I am willing to believe that they are actually making a better round, maybe because I haven't enlisted yet, until proven otherwise. I mean at the moment they are the only ones that can test it and after about 6 months of use I haven't heard any complaints about it in actual use nor have I been able to find any online. Out of all my friends in the military only one has gone to Afghanistan and used the new round. He said he likes it a lot better than the old one and that it is more accurate and powerful. He is a very good shot however so I don't know if it would actually be more powerful or if he just got hits in the right places. That isn't really proof as it is one person but that is the only "performance review" I've been able to hear as my other friends haven't been deployed since it started being issued.

I don't know if you have used it or not. If you have you're experience with it may have been different than my friend's. He is just the only person I know that I've talked to that actually used it.
 
Last edited:
Nance, complaints about which new round? MK 318 is good stuff, not at all sure about the M855A1.

FWIW, Doc Roberts has no axe to grind for or against M855A1, it's just his considered (and highly educated/experienced) evaluation of the presentation.
 
Nance, E, no disrespect, but HorseSoldier has an idea what he is talking about; if he says that the ACU pattern is an abortion he is likely going off of personal experience and is probably right (BTW, a SF buddy of mine completely agrees with his assessment).

:)
 
Al Thompson, I was talking about complaints about the M855A1 not MK318. Haven't heard anything bad about MK318.

I wasn't trying to say DocGKR has something against it. I'm sorry that wasn't clear in my post. I was just saying that as far as I know he hasn't tested it and without doing so he can't know for sure what it is like. I know that he knows a lot more than me about it and I am not trying to say he is lying about anything he said. Only that without testing it there is no way to know for sure.

Maverick223, he didn't say the ACU pattern he said the ACU uniform. I said that the uniform, from what I have heard is good overall, while the pattern is what gets complaints. As in the uniform overall is good while the camouflage pattern needs to go.

If he meant the camouflage only then I'm sorry I took it as the whole uniform but he did say uniform and not pattern so I read that as him saying the entire uniform was bad not just the camouflage.

Oh and none taken. I am the newbie around here.
 
The ACU uniform as a whole is junk. I remember when they were first being issued back in the early summer of 2005, as one of the units showed up in Iraq with them. At first everyone thought that they were cool and just great. However the material that they are made of is lighter than what our BDU and DCU uniforms were made of. Due to this these junky uniforms rip very easily and have a shorter service life as compared to the BDU and DCU uniform. Nothing about the ACU is good and those of us that been around long enough to know will tell you it don't cut it. Yeah it's real tactical sitting in a patrol base and hearing a velcro pocket being ripped opened at 0300 in the morning:rolleyes: That or having the seat of your trouser rip out while in the middle of an 18hr patrol.

It really sucks because these things cost more to replace as well.
Also just because a source says that a product is great don't make it so. I attended a small arms conference at Ft. Benning GA back in 2006. There was a panel of brainiacs from Aberdeen there to get some feed back from us as to what does and does not work. Basically they thought they knew better than us grunts and what was/is best for all as a whole. I'm goign to give one example to explain how full of BS these folks are, and these same folks more than likely had something to do with the M855A1.

Anyway we got on the subject of the SDMR which ended up getting very heated. They attempted to inform all of us to that the 5.56x45 using M855 is just as lethal as 118LR out to 400 yards:scrutiny: Yeah you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that they were and are full of it. A year later we went from using M16A4s' to modified M14s'. These same people are going to tryand spoon feed everyone what they want to hear and nothing they don't.
 
Last edited:
The material is supposed to be lighter, from what I've heard, than the BDU but heavier than the DCU like a compromise between both. I'm pretty sure the DCU was 100% cotton while the ACU is 50% with 50% nylon if that is the case then the DCU should be lighter. As I said I haven't enlisted yet so I'm just going by what my friends have told me. Most of which are infantry by the way and most of them said it is good overall. I did hear about the tears but I also heard they made the groin area tougher. Velcro was something they didn't like. The main thing my friends liked was the layout of the the uniform. They never really talked about the material.

I'm not trying to say it is great just because they say it is. Just that we really can't know if it is great or bad without using it wether in testing or actual combat.

In their defense it depends on your definition of lethal. If you mean size of the hole then yes they are lying. However they could just mean that if you get a vital hit with either at that range it will have the same effect. As in if you shoot a vital organ with a M855 at 400m it will kill them just like a hit with M118 at 400m. I don't know exactly what they told you or what they meant however so I wont bring that up anymore than this and you would have a better understanding of it than me.

Oh and sorry if I seem disrespectful or anything. I have trouble explaining what I'm trying to say when I type. I can do it fine when talking but not with typing for some reason.
 
Last edited:
No it is not supposed to be lighter. When The ACU was first being fielded and to this very day the claim is that it is made of the same weight rip stop nylon as our BDU and DCU uniforms. The DCU and BDU uniforms were made of the same rip stop nylon material, the only difference of course is the camo pattern. The new multi cam ACU uniform is made of a heavier material than the ACU, it feels much more like my old BDU's.

As far as the lethality that I mentioned earlier I should have clarified that they were talking about the terminal effects. The new M855A1 may very well make it through some barriers better than the M855 as the penetrtor is longer. However I don't think that it will prove to cause any greater terminal damage to human targets than the M855. And I don't think that the avg soldier is going to be able to distinguish any difference in accuracy between the M855 and the M855A1.

The whole point of the Army going to the M855A1 more than anything else was to have a environmenatly safe projectile. They have been talking about this for for a long time now. Especialy now that indoor ranges are starting to become more common.

BTW no disrespect taken.
 
Last edited:
Just looked and you are right. DCU and BDU were the same apart from pattern and colors. As for the Multi-cam ACU I can't find anything about it's materials so I will have to take your word for it. I just know I never heard they were changing that,

So they meant the hole. Then yeah they are full of BS. From what I have heard about the M855A1 it isn't that it does more damage than the M855 just that it is consistent and fragments at longer range while the M855 is inconsistent and only fragments at close range. A fragmenting M855 does plenty of damage and I think they were only trying to make it do that at longer ranges and make it more consistent. Obviously I don't know for sure this is just what I heard.

I don't think that was the whole point just a high one. If it was the whole point I don't see why they would bother to change the design so much. One thing I do know I heard however is they were being restricted from going to some ranges due to some cities banning the use of ammo with lead in them.

Aren't the outdoor ranges the ones that mostly would have a problem with the lead? Indoor it can't really do much but outdoors it could possibly get in water or the soil I guess. It could be a problem indoors if no one cleans it up I suppose but that is about it.

Alright. I just don't want to get in trouble or anything so soon after I joined.
 
Both the ACU pattern and the uniform as issued had issues. The pattern is just garbage and doesn't work very well anywhere, including Iraq. As issued the uniform was critically lacking in durability during the peak of combat operations in Iraq and just fell apart under heavy use, as previous posters noted. The other idiocy was the "let's all go SF" ridiculous overuse of velcro.
 
Well as I said I'm going by what friends of mine in the Army told me. That being that the camouflage worked in Iraq and that for the most part the uniform was good.
 
I've not heard of the Velcro problem (though it makes sense)...what about using small/strong magnets (Neodymium?) for pockets and other closures (obviously not for the fly, et al)? Might solve the noise and easy opening/closure problem (although it may be too costly as well)? Either way, I don't think inorganic shapes on a camo pattern is a good idea...is this really that difficult of a concept?

:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top