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Expansion from a snubbie.....

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TonyB

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My ccw is an SP101 2.25" in 357mag......
My question is..will357 Hydra-shoks expand from this snubby???
Or should I go with something like my summer round Federal 38+p+ jhp??
I switched to the 357's for winter carry thinking of thicker clothing and such,but now I wonder if they'd act like FMJ from a short tube......
also for Mr. March......what's that 38 round you're always recommending???and where can I get some???My local shops have little 38 fare.....:cool:
 
I'm not Jim March, but I've read lots of his posts, and a fair bit of the stuff he's read, too ;)

So, I can tell you that the .38 he recommends is Winchester's 130 gr. SXT (or something-XT).

BUT, that recommendation is specific to .38 snubs--where this conversation is pretty common, because it is so hard to find a round that penetrates AND expands AND stays within the pressure limits of the .38. Fortunately, that's not a problem you have. You have a 357--and a reasonably heavy one, at that (heavy for a snub). You can disregard the pressure limits of the .38 and shoot whatever you can shoot with control.

In my research, I've never really seen or read anything particularly compelling about the hydrashock beyond the enthusiastic recommendations of its fans. I wouldn't trust them to expand in a four inch gun. I've seen test results, on the other hand, that demonstrate the superior performance of the Gold Dot, or the Golden Saber, or old-fashioned LSWCHPs.

Assuming you don't reload (or don't want to carry reloads), a couple of good starting places for a trustworthy carry load might be Remington's moderately loaded Golden Saber (125 gr. @ 1220 fps) or Triton's 'tactical' 125 gr. Gold Dot at around the same velocity. If you want a heavy bullet, the 158 gr. Gold Dot is probably your best bet in .357; or, you could use the LSWCHPs if a heavy 357 proved to be too much. (If you reload, this is a whole different conversation--and a better one, frankly; I carry a 357 snub--an Airlite--and love that I can pick a precise bullet and load to fit my gun and my wishes.)

As a thread a while back lamented, there's not a lot of test data on 357 loads, basically because there's not a whole lot of need to test the round; it works. If you can shoot 357 comfortably and accurately in your gun, and you're interested in having a load that works, there's no reason to bump down to the .38--even a good load like the Winchester SXT.

CG
 
In 38Spl I recommend the Winchester 130 +P Supreme, or any of the rounds based on the Gold Dot 125 at +P pressure (Speer, Georgia Arms, Proload, Black Hills, etc) or the 158+P LSWC-HP by Winchester or Remington (or old-stock Cor-Bon 158+P LSWC-HP when available and I might consider the Georgia Arms variant of the same load).

You will never find 38Spl Federals of any type in any of my guns. They suck. They suck BAD. The powder charges are uniformly pathetic. Winchester 158+Ps will hit 850fps from a 2" barrel on a good day and a good gun - Federals will barely break 750. Nothing they make has a prayer of expansion out of a 2", unless you can figure out how to minaturize a JATO unit and strap it on the dang thing's back end :rolleyes:.

I would also make sure performance doesn't suck on ANY other specific Federal round in other calibers, and probably wouldn't bother as there are companies out there that try and put out a good product.

Federal has too many fans who remember when they a), didn't suck and b), had the most advanced JHPs out there. They also got a lot of credit for police/FBI contracts but guess what? They do NOT wimp out on the velocities of their LEO-sales stuff.

Thou Hast Been Warned, OK? Asking which Federal to use is like asking "should I pour sand in my gun's innards, or piss on it instead?".

:scrutiny:
 
Ouch

Don't hold back for our sakes Mr. March. It's good to get things like that off your chest once in a while.

Actually...now you have me worried about the 90gr Hydra-Shok's in my wife's .380.

:(
 
I don't know about the 380 specifically. You'll have to do some research, start with www.ammolabs.com - eh, no, they're not covering 380 at all yet. Sigh. Lesse...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm

12 year old FBI data :rolleyes:. Still, better than nothing. At least as of '91, they were OK...but it's also possible that was "police brew" stuff (not impossible even in 380). Or the recipe has changed...

OK, so waddya ya do?

Personally, I'd chrono them. If they're pulling 950fps or better, they oughta do fine...there's nothing really wrong with the projectile. If they're south of 900fps...hmmm...I'd be willing to bet there are better options.

http://www.georgia-arms.com/power.htm

There's a good one. Gold Dots tend to have a rounded nose that feeds well, and it's usually a good performer. Plus GA doesn't wimp. Proload and Black Hills are probably loading it too.

You'll still have to test 'em for accuracy and reliability in YOUR slidegun mind you.

Cor-Bon rates their 380 defense load (also a 90grain) at 100fps faster, but of course neither is publishing exact test barrel specs :rolleyes: and Cor-bon's nosecone shapes are sometimes funky (the 9mm 115+P is a great round but with an SWC profile that sometimes hangs up on feed ramps).

Also, GAs are WAY cheaper so buying and shooting 200+ for test purposes is more practical for some.

What else...you can make a case in favor of the Hornady XTP of all things for 380. Basically, the XTPs don't open as "fat" as most other JHPs. If you've got enough power to punch deep while going fat (357, 45, hot 9mm), cool. But, some people opine that penetration with 380 is marginal to start with, so a round that DOES expand but to a lesser degree has merit.

Do some research.

But do NOT trust Federal without said research.

My $.02...
 
I found some 380 info:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/MakarovBersa.htm

Here's an interesting picture from that article:

(Edit: go to the article to see the pic...can't be grabbed here...)

The caption says:

These .380 ACP bullets were fired into water. Top Left: Remington 102-gr. Golden Saber.

Bottom: Magtech Guardian Gold 85-gr. JHP +P, Top Right: Hornady 90-gr. XTP.
Click to expand...

Granted, water-testing isn't optimum. But at least for comparison purposes among these three rounds in that gun, we note three things:

1) The Magtech failed.

2) The Remington "barely expanded". Note the rough appearance of the lead, and how it didn't "flow" very well. This 102grain load possibly isn't going fast enough and might fail on cloth ("clog failure").

3) Now look at the XTP. First, it didn't go as fat as the Remmie, as I suggested above (normal XTP behavior, it was designed as a deep-punch hunting load). But see how smooth the lead is, and how it has "flowed" into the areas between the jacket "petals"? That's a classic sign it's doing well...drive it 50fps slower, it'd still work. MAYBE 100fps slower, if you're lucky. As is, it's just above it's "sweet spot", which is what you want. Also, XTPs work well when driven faster than recommended, they tend to resist "shredding the nose" (within limits of course).

------------

This same author has comments on the 38Snubbie loads which I agree with completely:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Feedingthe38Snub.htm

-------------

And here's yet more data on the 380:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comparisonof9x18mmMakarovetc.htm

I'll be dipped...the Federal is moving pretty well! Cor-Bon beats the hell out of it of course but that's to be expected. All in all, surprisingly un-sucky :). (Mind you, that's from a 3.8" barrel...if yours is a real shorty (NAA Guardian or whatever) you'll need all the heat you can get. Below 900, figure expansion gets iffy.

Pay close attention to his chrono data, as that's the most scientific data he's publishing. Unfortunately, he didn't test any Gold Dot variants. Still, this bodes well for your Fed 380s.

BUT I've seen enough data on the 38Spl to stick with my comments re: the 38+P Federals.
 
Thanks!

Mr. March, I appretiate the research you did on my behalf on the .380 thing...I might have to look into the Georgia Arms thing. I understand they have a 'Deer Stomper' .357 load...I'm trying to imagine that little beast comming out of my new Marlin Carbine...heh, heh, heh...
 
Priv8teer--
The Deer slayer is a load of fun in my Marlin; fast enough to shoot very flat, and accurate as all get-out. They're quite reasonable, too. (just yesterday I was at the range with my 1894 and an equivalent handload--a big bunch of 296 under a 158 JHP--and could knock down a 4" popper at 125 yds just about every time from sitting or kneeling positions. That's with a Lyman peep rear sight and Marlin factory front. I figure that's plenty of accuracy out to the practical limit of the cartridge)

Now to the question at the top of the thread--aren't there any SP101 shooters out there willing to share their experience and favorite loads? You all manage well enough with 357s (rather than 38s), don't you?
 
Speer has just released (or is in the process of releasing) a new 135-grain Gold Dot tailored specifically for two-inch .38s. Initial testing looks promising.
Click to expand...

I'll have to look into that... Most expansion tests I've seen with 'regular' +P Gold Dots don't look like they expand very consistantly.
 
Yes, I've heard of this new Speer project...THANK YOU for the tech paper links.

Looks damned interesting, that's for sure.

If any of the basic JHP designs can be "tuned" for low speed, it'll be the Gold Dot. The jacket is abnormally thin (really a very heavy plating process, which is why it sticks to the lead so well).

Edited after reading the report: my, this stuff looks to be QUITE nice.

Now if they'll give projectiles to Georgia Arms so we can get 'em cheaper :D...

But regardless, this stuff will probably be what I load up at some point. I'd consider them in longer barrelled guns too, as Gold Dots resist "overspeed problems".
 
Check this out! It lists .38 Gold Dot component bullets in 110, 135 and 147 grns! Could get very interesting indeed when Black Hills and Greorgia Arms gets ahold of these. A 147 GDHP +P+ load could be very nice for the full sized guns, not to mention having interesting potential for .357 mag. A 110 GDHP .357 mag @ 1300fps could make for a very nice reduced recoil load too.

CCI 2004 Nex Products PDF
 
Revolvergeek: THANK YOU for that link. Quite interesting.

The three new 38 loads say "tuned for 38Spl speeds". Now, Gold Dots are good about hanging together when "overdriven" but the most likely "sweet spot" for the 110 projectile is 1,000 to 1,100fps tops. You're talking about over-driving it 200fps or more...eh...not sure that's a good idea!

No, what looks to ME like a mild 357 load would be to start with the 147 and get it going around 1000 - 1100 tops pending testing. Given that it's probably tuned for 900ish, that should work well and shoot real sweet in a steel 5-shot, managable with Riboflavin.

The 110 has potential as a NON-plus-P load for those people still carrying early airweights or antiques. Get it going at around 850, and it'll do the job...
 
Jim,

You are right, 1300fps would probably be a bit much, and with the Nyclad getting harder and harder to find we will need a good standard velocity load. I just thinking of how nice some of the 115 GDHP +P+ loads expanded (but those bullets were probably tweaked for ideal expansion around 1100-ish fps) and I always liked Federal's 110 JHP .357 mag load, so I was thinking something with the low recoil and limted soft penetration of the Federal load, but better 'tactical' penetration. I spend a lot of time on the road, so solid performace against sheet metal and auto glass is very attractive to me.

A 147 GDHP 357 mag load at 1100 or so would be very nice; something along the lines of the Silvetip 357 load, but with better expansion and more consistent performance. It would probably also make very nice food for my 16" Rossi 92 lever action.

Our local police supply is a Speer distributor, so I am going to go talk to him this week about getting me some of the 135 +p snubby load as soon as it starts shipping.

Danny
 
One of these days I'd like to test out a personal theory, goes something like this:

If you overdrive a JHP about 200 - 300fps past it's "sweet spot", you'd have been better off running it slower. If you're going to overdrive, go WAY overboard and turn it into a heavyweight frangible.

Or put another way:

1) Take a good hollowpoint and run it at it's recommended speed, and you'll drive a fat hole.

2) Overdrive it a bit, and it'll go fat then shred back down, losing the nosecone and dropping back close to original bore.

3) Go really nuts, and you'll blow a giant hole :).

The question is, what does it take to get to #3?

Take that 110 meant for 38, and shoot it out of a 357 rifle at 357 pressures. Should hit 2,200fps or more :D. I would NOT wanna be in the way of THAT.

But what happens at 1,700fps, as a 357 from a 6" barrel or whatever?

No idea. Be interesting to find out :).
 
So, Mr March. What would be a good non +P factory load for a .38 snubbie? And what would be a good factory +P load for my Colt Official Police with a 5" barrel?

It's nice to see somebody is still paying attention to the poor old .38 Special in this age of plastic-fantastic wonder guns.
 
For 38+P out of a 2", I trust:

1) The Winchester or Remington 158+P lead hollowpoint (LSWC-HP+P). The Georgia Arms variant holds promise, and old-stock Cor-Bons are the hottest.

2) Gold Dot 125 +P JHPs as made by Speer, Georgia Arms, Proload and Black Hills.

3) Winchester's 130grain +P Supreme.

From a 5" barrel, there are probably even more JHPs that will expand properly. Of the three above, the Gold Dots work across a broader velocity range than most, so I'd probably prefer that - but any of the three above should work.

As these three new projectiles come online, from a 5" the 147 might be the best possible, while the 135 looks REALLY nice for 2" barrel +P apps. These aren't shipping yet.

The choices for 2+ barrel non-plus-P ammo are really bad right now. Federal's 125 Nyclad had a decent rep but is out of production. Federal's 110 "Personal Defense" hydrashock was supposed to take over the role but it sucks...the only way it will see 800fps from a 2" is with a hurricane tailwind :barf:.

The Village Metalworks answer is basically a wadcutter loaded hot - compared to the usual "target grade", that's not an insane idea:

http://www.villagemetalworks.com/Frame.htm

With luck, one of the "petals" will break off and it'll tumble funky. If not...well, at least it's a hot wadcutter.

The other option is to just get a 158 semi-wadcutter loaded as hot as possible short of +P. Georgia Arms has one at "775fps" - 700 if you're lucky from a 2".

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm#ab

My take?

If you have a snub that's not supposed to shoot +P, you might consider just carrying the Winchester 158+P LSWC-HP and not practicing with that load. Is this optimal? No. Not hardly. But...until somebody sorts out an option, and it LOOKS like the Gold Dot 110 might be a start, you really need a +P capable carry gun.
 
Thanks Jim. The snubbie in question belongs to my girlfriend and upgrading is not an option right now. Perhaps later this year. It is a Rossi and while it works perfectly with standard velocity ammo, it got very cranky about some +P Hydra-Shoks. It was very difficult to operate after firing the HS. It worked fine again when we went back to standard velocity loads. I'd like to get her an SP 101 that will give her a lot more options. The Colt OP was bought for a fun gun and because a character in one of my favorite Sci-Fi stories carried one. It's in beautiful shape though and I figure I might as well have some good SD ammo in it.

What do you know about the Remington Golden Sabers in .38 and .357? I have had the .40 S&W 165s highly recommended by a friend in law enforcment who says they are working well in real world shootings. But I haven't read or heard anything about the .38 and .357.

Thanks.
 
I've heard good things about that 38 Remmie but test data is hard to come by. I'd bet good money they'll work at 5" but at 2"...hmmm...I just don't know. The 357 is supposed to be a good "not too crazy in the recoil dept., but still works" load much like the Proload 125grain "tactical lite" 357.

The Remmie GS is only loaded 38+P and 357 though, no help for the old Rossi.
 
I played with the Rem GS loads in .38 and .357 a little. I had problems both rounds tumbling.

At 25 yards he .357 GS would not consistently hit a B27 target out of my 640-1, but with the Rem 125 sjhp med velocity load I could shoot 3-3.5 inches easily. The few that hit the taget were anywhere from dead on to almost full sideways. Never had that happen with any other round. It shot more accurately out of my 686, but nowhere near what the gun would normally shoot.

The .38 load was better in the 640-1 than the 357 (at least it would keep all rounds on the target) but it was still showing signs of bullet yaw (oval holes in the paper). I tried it in a 3" S&W 36 with the same results. Might have just been a bad batch, but this initial performance and the relatively high cost kept me from buying any more of it to play with. Never had any problems with the GS loads in .40 or .45. though.
 
Taking the thread a wee bit off topic, but within its past wanderings...

Its not often I can share a bit of my experience with Jim March and the rest of you revolver gurus.

But I did do some expansion testing on .380 acp, using wet newsprint. The pistol was an FEG PPK clone. I tested the Remington 102gr. Golden Sabre, shooting at a box full of wet newsprint. Then I started covering the box with more and more layers of denim to see what happened to expansion.

Every 102gr Golden Sabre expanded normally, until I got to 5 layers of denim. Then only about 1/2 expanded. By 7 layers of denim, none expanded.

Contrasting with 9mm Win Slivertips, they stopped expanding at 7 layers of demin. "Wound channels" for the 102gr. Golden Sabre were about 75% of the size of the 9mm. About 10" penetration vs. about 13" for the 9mm. Diameter of wound channel scaled the same.

So I'm fairly impressed with the 102gr. Golden Sabre load.

Maybe this spring I'll test the 90gr Speer Gold Dots, since I want to reload some o' those crittersin my .380.
 
Dave, very interesting. One thing: if I recall, your .380's barrel is on the long side for that caliber...almost 4", right?

It's the little 2" barrel critters like the NAA and Kel-Tec that would concern me with the 102s. You need velocity to make any JHP work. A 90 might move a hair faster in a shorter tube.

I'll be interested in how those 90grain Gold Dots do in the same test.
 
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