Expected Groups at What Ranges - Service Rifles with Irons

[firedawg60]

I can consistently shoot less than 1/2" one-shot groups at 300 yards with my Garand.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I can consistently shoot less than 1/2" one-shot groups at 300 yards with my Garand.

Indeed, I would guess you shoot even tighter, maybe a third of an inch or less!

 

[tark]

I can consistently shoot less than 1/2" one-shot groups at 300 yards with my Garand.

You too?? My Garand does the same thing !!!

 

[Random 8]

I've put a fair amount of time into this. I don't know the exact answer, but in my experience, with issue iron sight, and US style National match sights you are nearing the limit of what a good rifle and tuned ammunition will do around 2 MOA +/- with 10 shots to 200 yards. Past 200, wind starts to come into play and makes true group sizes somewhat difficult to quantify. A diopter type match sight may shrink this down somewhat, depending on your eyes. Some do not shoot them well.

I did an interesting experiment with a rifle some years ago. 5 shot groups. It was a K-31 which was quite accurate and had already won matches for me. With issue irons, it floated in and out of the 2 MOA mark at 100 yards from a sandbag rest. A lead sled shrunk this down slightly. A diopter sight got me groups comparable to the Lead sled with issue sights. A clamp on mount fitted with a 12x scope easily broke the 1 MOA mark through 5 shots on most groups. The limiting factor given good rifle and ammo was the sights. Groups with the optic interestingly showed similar results to the iron sights until a white tack was placed in the black as an aiming point.

You see very few clean prone scores, even in reduced matches with the newish optics rule. Even fewer in the vintage matches. A good Springfield, Swede or Swiss is capable, I've done it, but it's a rare and beautiful thing when it happens. The old wood and steel rifles have a tendency to move a bit when they get warm, fouled, or the shooter does something wrong. The AR platform seems less prone to these gremlins. Get close to 2 MOA and practice your offhand, rapids and reloads. You'll win matches.

 

[Archie]

CMP Games matches are fired with "as-issued" M1, 1903 Springfield, and various vintage military rifles (both US and foreign) with minimal allowed modifications. Trigger work, subject to safe minimum pull weights, is allowed. Rear sight apertures can be made smaller, but that is the only modification allowed to the sights. So for those rifles, shot at 200 yds., 3.5 MOA is the expected standard.

Ah! I stand corrected. I shot in the Western Division (U. S. M. C.) rifle and pistol matches in 1975 and 1976. So my information regarding rules (allowed arms and modifications) is probably dated.
The targets used at the time are possibly outdated as well, but they were the same targets used in the annual qualification. And I know the annual qualification has changed with the adoption of the M-16 and following variants.
Thank you.

 

[PzGren]

ZDv 3/13 of 10/1961 lists 3 hits inside of 16cm circle as acceptable for the HK G3 and MG1 at 100 meters. That's about 6.3" at 109 yards, though most rifles did much better and wind and fluctuating temperature had an influence on POI.

 

[Varminterror]

I'm personally still at the Indian-not-the-bow-and-arrow phase. Pretty much any functioning rifle is mechanically more accurate than my rifle marksmanship, although certainly you can tell some difference - a 16" Colt carbine with an EoTech at 100 yards is a 3" group or so for me including a flyer, but the same distance with an iron-sighted SKS I'm lucky to have two rounds on the 12" target. And in between is the excellent peep sights on my M1 carbine, which is not known for being an exceptionally accurate long gun but which has superior sights to the SKS and is minute-of-pie-plate for me at 100 yards all day. So the mechanical accuracy of the gun certainly affects my accuracy, but the type of sights and the variance in my own marksmanship seem to be bigger factors in my precision and accuracy.

This is a fantastic description of the irony in the “it’s the Native, not the Arrow” mythos.

I generally consider anyone saying that line to NOT be a very experienced shooter, as anyone with some rounds under their belt can pick up different firearms and deliver different precision downrange, illustrating the critical influence of the HARDWARE on the end result.