Experience with the durability OR fragility of the Kel-Tec Sub2000?

[WVGunman]

I'm talking about the newer model that looks like this:
I've owned one for a few years, but it's just been a plinker. Since I bought it, I've moved to a state where buying long guns is considerably easier than buying handguns. I can reload almost any pistol round, therefore I am looking harder at PCCs as both recreational guns and for self-defense. Seen through this new lens, I'm wondering if the Kel-Tec is really the best I could do. The whole thing is held together by one wimpy little bolt right below the rear sight. I just can't shake the feeling if I tripped and fell on it the gun would break right in half.

This does NOT mean I'm automatically looking to buy a whole new gun. The PCC choices out there have some problems if you want a semi-auto in 9mm. (I already own a lever action .44 Magnum. A fun gun, but inferior to a semi-auto in 9mm for defense against anything short of a bear.)
I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt with Hi-Point carbines, and I'm not interested in re-visiting them. (Too crude, small mag capacity) I think the Ruger PC Carbine is overpriced by at least $150 for a blow-back gun that has a cheap plastic stock. The Ruger gun ALSO has a joint in the middle, and I do not believe stamping "Ruger" on plastic somehow makes it better plastic than stamping "Kel-Tec" on it. In practical terms I'm not sure the Ruger is any different from the Kel-Tec, other than being more expensive. Besides, I already own the Kel-Tec.

So, I'd like to see if anyone has pushed the limits of the Sub2000 in order to learn what I can expect from it in terms of durability. Ever broken one, or seen it broken? What did it take? Ever put one under real stress and it came out ok? Thoughts?

 

[halfmoonclip]

Have had two Sub 2000s, in addition to some other KelTec products over the years. None of them have exuded quality or durability, all were enormously clever.
My take on all things KelTec was they were never meant for lot of shooting. I've sold off both of my Subs (took a real beating on the second one, and they are now available, new, for less than my buddy paid me.)
So, if you want a PCC that is more durable/can be shot a lot....
-CZScorpion. It is available in a 16" carbine length, with a stock, or an 8" that really wants to be an SBR. Remember, across the pond, these are full auto subguns, so durability shouldn't be a problem. They use proprietary, but inexpensive, magazines; factory and MagPul.
-Beretta Storm CX4 carbine. With its 'through the grip' magazine placement, it is still shorter than most 16" carbines. It also uses proprietary (92 series or other Beretta magazines). It also is a subgun overseas, lots of plastic not withstanding.
-The original Ruger PC9, one piece stock. If sturdiness is your goal, this is one PCC that would endure a buttstroke that knocks somebody on their ass. It even has provision to keep the bolt from bouncing out of battery while you're abusing it. It uses older Ruger P-series magazines, which are still abundant.
-Any of a variety of AR9s. These vary in quality and function; the original Colt is now out of production.

Really love 9mm PCCs, both for entertainment and defense. And they remain cheaper to feed, and less noisy, than a 5.56.
There's a place for the Sub2k, but there are much better choices.
Moon

 

[Alex Clayton]

I'm talking about the newer model that looks like this:View attachment 1174591
I've owned one for a few years, but it's just been a plinker. Since I bought it, I've moved to a state where buying long guns is considerably easier than buying handguns. I can reload almost any pistol round, therefore I am looking harder at PCCs as both recreational guns and for self-defense. Seen through this new lens, I'm wondering if the Kel-Tec is really the best I could do. The whole thing is held together by one wimpy little bolt right below the rear sight. I just can't shake the feeling if I tripped and fell on it the gun would break right in half.

This does NOT mean I'm automatically looking to buy a whole new gun. The PCC choices out there have some problems if you want a semi-auto in 9mm. (I already own a lever action .44 Magnum. A fun gun, but inferior to a semi-auto in 9mm for defense against anything short of a bear.)
I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt with Hi-Point carbines, and I'm not interested in re-visiting them. (Too crude, small mag capacity) I think the Ruger PC Carbine is overpriced by at least $150 for a blow-back gun that has a cheap plastic stock. The Ruger gun ALSO has a joint in the middle, and I do not believe stamping "Ruger" on plastic somehow makes it better plastic than stamping "Kel-Tec" on it. In practical terms I'm not sure the Ruger is any different from the Kel-Tec, other than being more expensive. Besides, I already own the Kel-Tec.

So, I'd like to see if anyone has pushed the limits of the Sub2000 in order to learn what I can expect from it in terms of durability. Ever broken one, or seen it broken? What did it take? Ever put one under real stress and it came out ok? Thoughts?

I have had 2. One in .40 that I sold long ago. It had a case or so of ammo run through it before I sold it. The 9mm version I have lost track of how many cases of ammo its burned. Mine is the older Gen 1. The real difference in the Gen 2 was cosmetic changes that were NICE.
There are some downsides to this rifle. The big one is how small they are. You will find a LOT of complaining about people having trouble shooting them well due to the size. They do not seem to have ever been made to use for plinking, hunting, speed steel and such. If that is what you are after you would probably be better off with something else. If you like AR's there is a LOT of choices in pistol caliber. The one Ruger makes I also have and LOVE it. If you are looking at cheap? The High Point is that and does work. Kel-Tec has long been a Co many seem to love to hate on. For me if I ever manage to wear out the one I have I will be buying another.

 

[Roverguy]

If you are prepared to slaughter looks on the altar of dependability, look no further than the very budget friendly HiPoint PCC. I have one in 45 ACP and have been running an experiment to see how long it will run dirty before giving me issues. At present count I have 1050 rounds through it without cleaning. I have had two feed failures, both related to the booty-fab brass catcher set up I have. I would definitely get another in 40 S&W.

Cons:

. UGLY!
. Heavy (though great for recoil reduction)
. Proprietary mags (though not expensive)
. A pig to disassemble for cleaning
. In a home defense situation, the perp may well laugh at your firearm

Pros:

. Inexpensive
. Reliable
. Decent ergonomics
. Will run even when filthy
. Plenty accurate with a red dot
. In a home defense situation, the laughter may give you an extra edge over the perp

 

[someguy2800]

The sub2000 is infinitely neat because of the size it folds into but in my opinion they are terrible to shoot compared to the other options out there. Crappy sights, bad recoil impulse, bad trigger, ect... A sub2000 to me is a gun you buy to store somewhere in case of emergency and shoot very little, but there are people that shoot lots and lots of rounds through them and enjoy them. I would say dropping it or falling on it is probably the most likely way to wreck one rather than actually wearing it out.

After having several blowback 9mm's and a CMMG banshee, this is my ultimate 9mm PCC for my wants and needs. It is a side charging upper, 8.5" faxon barrel, PSA colt mag lower, and has a Scheel MFG roller delayed buffer so it is a true roller delayed blowback. After having this I have zero interest in ever having another blowback 9mm. This picture was taken before the pistol brace ruling. It is a registered SBR now.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

The hardest I have pushed my Sub 2K is threading a muzzle brake onto it. You just screw one on with a crush washer behind it, like a normal AR birdcage.

And I had to use a vise for that, because just torqueing the barrel with a wrench can be enough to rip it out of its plastic housing.

I like my Sub 2K, but hard use guns they are not.

 

[Hokkmike]

None of the many reviews by gun magazines, writers, or YouTube reviewers has used the word fragile to describe the SUB2000.

 

[chicharrones]

-Beretta Storm CX4 carbine. With its 'through the grip' magazine placement, it is still shorter than most 16" carbines. It also uses proprietary (92 series or other Beretta magazines). It also is a subgun overseas, lots of plastic not withstanding.
-The original Ruger PC9, one piece stock. If sturdiness is your goal, this is one PCC that would endure a buttstroke that knocks somebody on their ass. It even has provision to keep the bolt from bouncing out of battery while you're abusing it. It uses older Ruger P-series magazines, which are still abundant.

The CX4 also has that type of device. At the very least, it would prevent the bolt from cycling if the gun was dropped on its butt.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The CX4 also has that type of device. At the very least, it would prevent the bolt from cycling if the gun was dropped on its butt.

Now that I did not know. Still not sure a buttstroke with a Storm is a good idea, but the short OAL with a 16" barrel is great.
Chicharrones, ever have any thought of SBR'ing yours? I probably would not, but just thinking out loud.
Moon

 

[Txhillbilly]

The only Sub 2k's that I've ever heard of really breaking are the ones with the factory green furniture. Not that I'm really hard on any of my firearm's, but I've been very happy with my 40 cal Gen 2 Sub 2k. I knew going in that there were plenty of so called flaws / short comings with a box stock weapon, so I ordered pretty much every upgrade part made by MCARBO and installed them before I ever shot the gun.
I've also got a 40 cal Ruger PC Carbine. It's a heavy turd, and the factory trigger sucked, IMO, so I installed a Volquartzen 2.5# trigger pack in it.
The Ruger is probably a better built, more robust weapon, but the Sub 2k is a lot funner to shoot!

 

[PO2Hammer]

Ruger PCC over priced?
$500 for a carbine that is more reliable and more accurate than any other?
I get 2” at 100 yards with hollow points and it will feed anything.
Maybe the $2000+ JP carbine is nicer with the roller delay, but for $500, you’re not going to get a better carbine than the Ruger.
BTW, I’m not a Ruger honk, don’t care for most Ruger products, but the PCC is solid.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I have a S2K and agree with Someguy- its a neat, handy, concealable carbine to store in your go-bag for emergencies. I think the MSRP is about $200 too high, but for $300 or less its ok for what it is.

Will it withstand years of frontline combat in the trenches of the Donbass? I doubt it.

There are much more durable PCCs out there. The Skorpion is fantastic, as are the H&Ks if you dont mind paying for the best wargear available. I REALLY wanted to like the CX, but its just too "plasticky" for me and I cant bring myself to trust it- same with the Tavor 9 and HiPoint.

Ive also got a PSA9 and its been great. I keep mine light and simple, basic furniture and just MBUS folding sights- more doodads than that and you might as well have a regular .223/.300 AR. Highly recommended if you can get one on a Daily Deal.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

The sub2000 is infinitely neat because of the size it folds into but in my opinion they are terrible to shoot compared to the other options out there. Crappy sights, bad recoil impulse, bad trigger, ect... A sub2000 to me is a gun you buy to store somewhere in case of emergency and shoot very little, but there are people that shoot lots and lots of rounds through them and enjoy them. I would say dropping it or falling on it is probably the most likely way to wreck one rather than actually wearing it out.

After having several blowback 9mm's and a CMMG banshee, this is my ultimate 9mm PCC for my wants and needs. It is a side charging upper, 8.5" faxon barrel, PSA colt mag lower, and has a Scheel MFG roller delayed buffer so it is a true roller delayed blowback. After having this I have zero interest in ever having another blowback 9mm. This picture was taken before the pistol brace ruling. It is a registered SBR now.

View attachment 1174658

That is AWESOME!

 

[chicharrones]

I have a S2K and agree with Someguy- its a neat, handy, concealable carbine to store in your go-bag for emergencies. I think the MSRP is about $200 too high, but for $300 or less its ok for what it is.

Will it withstand years of frontline combat in the trenches of the Donbass? I doubt it.

There are much more durable PCCs out there. The Skorpion is fantastic, as are the H&Ks if you dont mind paying for the best wargear available. I REALLY wanted to like the CX, but its just too "plasticky" for me and I cant bring myself to trust it- same with the Tavor 9 and HiPoint.

Ive also got a PSA9 and its been great. I keep mine light and simple, basic furniture and just MBUS folding sights- more doodads than that and you might as well have a regular .223/.300 AR. Highly recommended if you can get one on a Daily Deal.

I used to think the same thing a long time ago and passed on the CX-4. Then I finally relented and got one about 5 years ago. In my hands, I've really become impressed with its construction for a plastic gun. The fact that Beretta trusts it to be a full auto gun tells me something about it too.

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[NIGHTLORD40K]

I used to think the same thing a long time ago and passed on the CX-4. Then I finally relented and got one about 5 years ago. In my hands, I've really become impressed with its construction for a plastic gun. The fact that Beretta trusts it to be a full auto gun tells me something about it too.

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If I could come across one for a sane price I might give it another shot- but I haven't even seen one in these parts in years. I actually stockpiled a bunch of M92 mags for an anticipated CX at one point. Ended up building my daughters AR9 to use 'em. Lol.

 

[chicharrones]

If I could come across one for a sane price I might give it another shot- but I haven't even seen one in these parts in years. I actually stockpiled a bunch of M92 mags for an anticipated CX at one point.

They are pushing $800 now. I got mine when they were $630.00.

If the S&W FPC hadn't come along, there wouldn't be the huge rebates for the SUB2000.

FPCs are $580 in my part of the world. If I was in the market for a folding PCC, I think the S&W would get my money.

 

[Alex Clayton]

If you are prepared to slaughter looks on the altar of dependability, look no further than the very budget friendly HiPoint PCC. I have one in 45 ACP and have been running an experiment to see how long it will run dirty before giving me issues. At present count I have 1050 rounds through it without cleaning. I have had two feed failures, both related to the booty-fab brass catcher set up I have. I would definitely get another in 40 S&W.

Cons:

. UGLY!
. Heavy (though great for recoil reduction)
. Proprietary mags (though not expensive)
. A pig to disassemble for cleaning
. In a home defense situation, the perp may well laugh at your firearm

Pros:

. Inexpensive
. Reliable
. Decent ergonomics
. Will run even when filthy
. Plenty accurate with a red dot
. In a home defense situation, the laughter may give you an extra edge over the perp

Anyone thinking of buying one of the HP's and leery should look at some of the video's of people trying to make one fail. Some guys have put one through the wringer trying to get it to break or stop and found it was VERY hard to do. They get a lot of laughter and hate but, they just work and for the price? You sure get your money's worth out of them. When they first hit they were often compared to the original Planet of the Apes prop rifles. Soon after market was making some MUCH nicer stocks for them and then the Co started making them with far nicer ones. So they lost a lot of the "ugly stick".

 

[someguy2800]

Anyone thinking of buying one of the HP's and leery should look at some of the video's of people trying to make one fail. Some guys have put one through the wringer trying to get it to break or stop and found it was VERY hard to do. They get a lot of laughter and hate but, they just work and for the price? You sure get your money's worth out of them. When they first hit they were often compared to the original Planet of the Apes prop rifles. Soon after market was making some MUCH nicer stocks for them and then the Co started making them with far nicer ones. So they lost a lot of the "ugly stick".

I generally liked mine but they have their limitations. I had it in the CX4 lookalike stock. If they made one that took a double stack mag, ideally glock mags, that would really be a selling point, but I imagine they make good money selling mags and aren’t keen on giving that up. For a range toy I would rather shoot a high point than a sub2000 any day.

 

[Alex Clayton]

I generally liked mine but they have their limitations. I had it in the CX4 lookalike stock. If they made one that took a double stack mag, ideally glock mags, that would really be a selling point, but I imagine they make good money selling mags and aren’t keen on giving that up. For a range toy I would rather shoot a high point than a sub2000 any day.

Yep! when they first hit they sold for around $150. I "thought" they had to be junk for that price. Then buddy of mine bought one and we could not get it to fail. The damn proprietary mags were the only reason I never did buy one but they were tempting. For those on a budget they still make a neat little fun gun and a great around the home PCC. Last I heard the Co is still outstanding in the customer service dept too.

 

[someguy2800]

Yep! when they first hit they sold for around $150. I "thought" they had to be junk for that price. Then buddy of mine bought one and we could not get it to fail. The damn proprietary mags were the only reason I never did buy one but they were tempting. For those on a budget they still make a neat little fun gun and a great around the home PCC. Last I heard the Co is still outstanding in the customer service dept too.

Yeah I got mine used with like 7 mags and a really nice soft case that I still have for like $250. Pretty hard to argue with that. The only real issues I had is that mine would not feed some of my target hollowpoints and it would not hold zero very well with a scope mounted to the top cover. I sold it because I had so much fun with it that I decided it was worth investing in a nicer PCC.

As for the customer service, I had one magazine baseplate which broke and sent the spring out the bottom. I called them and asked to order a new one and also asked to order a scope mount. They took down my info and never asked for a credit card. I got a new magazine, a replacement baseplate, and a scope mount in the mail a few days later and never paid a dime. Just wow.