Experiment with 'curing' and rust!!

[Ferret]

I am currently doing an experiment with rust.

When I got this revolver, I 'cured' it as mentioned by Gatofeo on his sticky.

First time was - clean out oil etc with hot soapy -> throw everything in 200 deg oven for an hour -> smother everything with crisco and let soak in.
Left it a week, then repeated the clean.
Left it another 2 weeks then repeated this all again.
I noticed that less and less crisco was getting soaked into the metal, and after the third time, there was a noticable amount of crisco left on the surface that wouldnt soak in. I just wiped this off.
I then went out and popped 12 caps, then 12 rounds of 15gr Pyrodex and 451 ball. (6 paper carts, 6 powder/wad/ball)
Cleaned and oiled again as above. This time there was almost no crisco soaked up.
Took it out again last week and popped off 12 caps then 12 rounds of 20gr (6 paper carts, 6 powder/wad/ball) (Edit... gun not cleaned before being put away..)

The revolver has been sat in its holster (an open bottom slim jim style), in my garage for a week now. The weather has been decidely rainy outside the garage and there is definately been moisture in the air (the air heater and water heater are in the garage too).
Want the suprise???? No rust. Not even the slightest inkling. Not a spot, not powder, not even the hint of rust.

So... my thoughts??? pre soaking your revolver multiple times (until saturation) BEFORE putting any loads through it definately keeps the rust at bay.

Pietta 1860, Pyrodex P powder.

F is for Ferret

 

[gmatov]

Just out of curiousity, why didn't you just fill a cake pan with Crisco and putit in the oven at 450 degrees for a day or 2. That would REALLY open the "Pores" of the steel, and you would probably have sucked up half the pan of grease.

That is bushwa, seasoning the barrel, just as seasoning a cast iron skillet. With a cast iron skillet, you bake it with salt in it, or your grandma might have said you wipr it with grease and bake it. You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, wash it with soapy water, or you gotta do it all over again.

But, we will "season" a barrel, and scrub it in hot soapy water and say Oh, yes, it is well seasoned. Or Fred's Red or Moose Milk or Hoppe's or whatever.

You know, if tou made a "pot" of 1 thou thick steel, and you put lard in it, and you heated it to the flash point, it would not leak, drip out the bottom of the "pot"?

Yet you believe that the "pores" of the barrel will "open up" to suck up your lube. Ain't gonna happen. You are surface lubing, period. And, if you let it go for a longer period, it would do the same as any other, mineral lube, would shed and rust.

Cheers,

George

 

[Ferret]

OK... clarification on the above post.

The FIRST time that I cleaned the revolver was the ONLY time that I used hot soapy water.
All 'cleanings' from that point on in the 'seasoning' were just a wipe through with a rag and then heat and apply crisco.

After shooting, I used pillow ticking soaked in water. It only took a couple of pull throughs to get a clean patch out. All other parts (cylinder etc) were just wiped down with a rag with hot water. The grease that was already in/on the metal will make sure that the water stays off the actual metal.
The reason to wipe with water is to neutralize the residue from the black powder/pyrodex/whatever.
All parts were then baked again and smothered with crisco again.

Yes, soapy water will wash the grease/oil off the surface.
The trick is to use the grease/oil to form a lasting boundary layer on/in the metal that will keep the nasty water from ever contacting the metal.
No water contact --- No rust

When we season metal, we are trying to open the pores and replace whatever is/was in the pores with something that will repel water. Repeated heating and application of crisco/oil/fat/etc will fill more pores each time it is done (you will never be able to get all of them). These crisco filled pores will act as an anchor to keep the fat/oil bonded to the metal. The more you do it, the deeper the anchor will be.

All metal has 'pores', they just vary in size with the quality of said metal. (see this link for photograph of pores in aluminum.) 19th century metal castings were of a much lower quality than the metal that we see today, and as such, had more 'pores' (which means that seasoning an OLD pan/barrel is gonna have more effect than a modern one)
These pores have a tendency to fill with water. Baking the metal will cause the water to steam and so the air in the oven will increase in humidity. As metal gets hotter, it expands, and therefore so do the 'pores'.
If you just do this, or do this with grease/lard/oil in the pan, some of the steam will still remain the metal. As metal cools, it attracts moisture.
If you bake the metal and include salt in the oven, the salt will take up the water. Salt is hygroscopic and attracts water to a greater degree than the metal will. Putting the salt in the pan or on the metal will cause whatever part of that metal is in contact with the salt to get water contact. Including the salt in a seperate container will mean that the moisture is going to go to the salt, not the metal that you want drying.

If you used any thickness of pan, with lard in it, and heated it to flash point (600 to 700 degrees depending upon fat quality of lard), there would be no lard left. It would have all burnt off. You would have a nasty mess on the pan though and of course nothing would have dripped through.
1 thou (1/1000 inch) thick steel would be hundreds if not thousands of times too thick for pores to make any gap from one surface to another, therefore nothing would drip through anyhow.

"You Can’t Change The Laws Of Physics, Jim", Montgomery Scott

 

[gmatov]

And the rest of us ALL use hot soapy water to clean. Makes me wonder why we didn't all see things with your clarity. Your system is much easier, just clean the removables, the cylinder and such.

Why don't you "season" the chambers, so you wouldn't have to clean the cylinder? I mean, the barrel is not a big deal, if you strip the pistol and hot soapy water clean everything else?

I strip and scrub mine each shoot, and I slather meltable grease, whether Crisco or Bore Butter, all over the hot parts, newly scrubbed with hot soapy water, and allowed to air dry, and were I to wait a week, as I have a few times, no rust. Surprise, surprise.

I would like for you to take a piece of steel, polish it, heat it real well, above 200 degrees, and let it sit in the same safe you keep your guns in, NO LUBE. Check it weekly, and in a month or 2, come tell us if IT has rusted.

I have a couple hundred pounds of bar stock in my open to the atmosphere garage/cum machine shop that are not lubed, nor are they rusty.

A wet swab will not neutralize the chlorides that cause the barrel, whatever, to be et away. That does require scrubbing with a hot soapy water.And Pyrodex, per Hodgon, is worse than genuine BP on your bore and chambers.

Good luck to you. Do as you wish, just don't think you will get too many of us to do as you wish.

MOST of us enjoy the cleaning almost as much as the shooting. We're not the Ruger Blackhawk shooters who shoot a box, shove in the holster, and shoot again the next year, then decide to sell and the dealer we wish to sell to downgrades because of a pitted barrel. "But that's a NEW kind of gun, you don't gotta clean them, only them BP guns, and I figured out how to not have to clean them. What, my BP guns are pitted, TOO? Wha'd I do wrong?"

Cheers,

George

 

[Ferret]

I said at the beginning that this was an experiment.

I am trying to see how long I can go without seeing rust. I am not trying to get anyone else to do what I am doing here.

For the other two BP's that i have. I clean them with hot soapy water, i enjoy the couple of hours of labour that gets me playing with the guns. It may not be down on the range making bang noises, but its at least tactile.

I am sorry if you are taking this as me preaching to convert people. Nope, this is an experiment.. my experiment. I am not recommending anyone else does this. If the gun is ruined in this experiment, then its MY gun. The thoughts that I am putting down here are my thoughts. My theories may be correct or incorrect but they are the ones that I am using in this experiment. I wrote and included my last post to share my thoughts on how things are happening.

 

[BP Tess]

Thanks for the info Farret. I have read in another forum of others seasoning their firearms like their mammas skillet! They just run a spit patch through the barrel for the cleaning out fouling when they needed to. No soap at all. I guess the ole timers shot either few and far between or one cylinder after the other if'in a reb or yank was crawlin up their backside!

 

[Manyirons]

Good work Ferret, please continue reporting!

 

[Beartracker]

Ferret, The way your doing the curing is fine and your test results are great ...but , it won't be conclusive unless unless you do the cure, clean the revolver but don't oil it and see what happens. If the grease is really in the metal from the curing process then it won't rust or I should say that's what some people believe.
The truth about curing for cast Iron skillets or Dutch ovens was to keep them from rusting when stored but the cleaning process was not a very sanitizing one. Cast Iron back then was much more pour es then the metals used in our gun's today. They did not wash them with anything, Most cooking or frying back then was done with rendered fat and grease and they used lots of it. (No one worried about cholesterol because it was never even heard of back then, Lol.)
When done they just wiped out the skillet and put it away. Every now and then they would wash lightly, smear it with a coating of grease and place it on the burner or in the over to cure again before putting it away.
The thing is, they knew that they had to re cure after a decent cleaning or it would rust. The reason I know about this is my mother did it for years and so did my first wife for years, that's the way it was done by most people at the time.
My guns are cleaned with windex or simple green.Water/ hot water is not necessary to end up with a spotless BP gun.After cleaning I lube with mineral oil including the bore. I leave the oil in the bore and wipe the gun down lightly with the oil if I'm going to store it for longer than a week or so. If I'm going to reload it right away or soon I will run a dry patch through the bore and and dry the oil in the cylinders and nipples real well.
None of my guns ever sit in storage for more than 2 or 3 months without checking them now and then and maybe wiping them down again.
Curing is fine , it works great too as long as you do it again every now and then. Hope you continue your test and keep us posted on the results, Mike

 

[Ferret]

Nice comments Bear. After a 8 days of being in the garage with no cleaning (not even a wipe down) since the last shoot, I pulled the barrel and ran a dry patch through the bore. I then used spit n patch for the chambers and just wiped everything down with a dry cloth.
Went out and had some fun missing my targets (I have to get this so that POA and POI are at least in the same zip code).
Pulled a couple of spit n patches through the bore, and chambers, then dry patchs, and then i put it back in the holster.......

Lets see what happens now..

 

[Beartracker]

Ferret, To really get an idea of where your gun is shooting and to work up loads it's a good idea in my opinion to use a really good bench rest position and start out a 5 yards. Shoot at a target no larger than a quarter or better yet draw a cross on a piece of computer paper and go for the center. I like my lines to be about 1/8" wide. Make sure each shot is from a very steady and solid rest and that you just squeeze the trigger with no jerking.If you jerk and you now it you will see it on the target as a flier, Lol. Don't ask me how I know about the misses
I like the 6:00 hold ,meaning that I like the sights to be at the bottom of a quarter and hit in the center. In other words I really like to see my "spot" or what I'm shooting at and not cover it up or blur it out. Start out with maybe 20gr and then move up from there.Once you find the load that is giving you the best group and consistency you got it made.
If your shooting to high or low file down or build up the sight a little at a time and keep shooting until you reach your goal. Keep in mind that if your shooting a close group at 5 yards and it's a little high or above the X or quarter circle that's fine. Now move out to 10 yards and do it again, then 15 and 20 and so on.
Nothing like it when a plan comes together Once you know that the Revolver is shooting right on from a bench rest then you can move on to free hand shooting and If you miss you will know it's not the guns fault:banghead:
This is just my method and I'm sure you will get some great ideas from others on here and the method they like to use to sight in there guns. Let us know how it all works out, Mike

 

[Low Key]

Ferret...

This is a very interesting experiment and your discussion with george and others here is helping me fine tune my cleaning process. I have three 1858 replicas, (8in barrel antiqued by me, 5.5in barrel, and 8in target sight version), and I have seasoned all of them by the same process you used. I stopped using hot, soapy water some time back and instead I spray all the parts with windex now when I clean up. I let it sit for a couple of minutes and then wipe everything off and spray it over with wd-40, wipe that off and then re-lube with bore butter. No rust yet, but I clean immediately after I'm done shooting. Next time I shoot, which may be this evening depending on the weather, I'm just going to do a wipe down with windex on patches instead of soaking everything with the spray bottle. Then I'll re-lube with bore butter and watch closely for a couple of days to make sure I see no rust forming anywhere.

Let us know how your uncleaned revolver is doing, I'll bet you don't have any rust yet.

 

[Ferret]

Update - with pics

Its now been a week since I started this thread, and 2 weeks since I started "The Experiment (tm)"..
Over the weekend I took my wife out to introduce her to BP revolvers, she hasnt shot anything before, so, I thought this would be a good intro.
Made up some paper carts with 25gr Pyrodex P and 451 balls. No wads.
Saturday - put 40 rounds through, pulled a 'spit patch' through the barrel
Sunday - put another 60 rounds through and another 'spit patch'
Then put everything away in the garage.
Today I went out to check it, and thought I would take some photos.
By the end of Sunday, the Colt (Pietta) was starting to bind a little, so, I had a good idea that there was some nice(?) fouling around the cylinder. Took the barrel off and took pictures of the cylinder, etc.
NO RUST!
As you can see, I didnt even clean out the chambers.
Tonight its getting a nice clean (no soap or chemicals, just spit and patches) and is getting greased up again. Pics will be taken after cleaning.

Pics are a little blurry, but thats the camera. They are good enough for you to get the general pic (pun intended)

 

[gmatov]

Mike,

You got a cast iron skillet. You put it on the stove, you get it hot, where's the germs?
SO, you grease the damned thing to keep rust down.

Ain't no damn way it makes it any easier to peel a flapjack off the damned thing. Makes it a "non-stick" skllet.

You CAN use a steel spatula to scrape a burnt on whatever, without scratching the hell out of a Teflon pan.

You ain't agonna make it non-stick.

And, you ain't gonna make a barrell non-stick, or non leading, if you push 'em too fast.

Cheers,

George

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Nothing wrong with the camera

Pics are a little blurry, but thats the camera. They are good enough for you to get the general pic (pun intended)
March 24th, 2006 06:47 PM

As a semi pro photographer I can tell you that this is "MALFUNCTION OF PHOTOGRAPHER" and not the camera. You have the gun too near the lens as proved by the sharp focus objects around it. Step back and try again - PLEASE!!!
Duncan

ps. This is looking like a lets get at Ferret day but it's meant to be constructive - honest D

 

[sundance44s]

sundance44s

Most women know to get their favorite iron skillet good and hot before dropiing in and food .. the heat killes the germs .. kinda like boling swamp water before ya drink it .

 

[Ferret]

OK.. yeah it was "user error", I checked the camera and it was set to a different focus setting. I now set it for 'centre focus'. Thanks for pointing that out, I had taken many many sets of photos for this and couldnt understand why it just wouldnt focus on the gun parts, no matter what distance (well.. it would focus if i stood 3 feet away, but...)
I've got to the age now where I cant understand the simplest of digital cameras... :banghead:

 

[BP Tess]

Hello again...I just wanted to let ya'll know that I have all of my Grandma's iron skillets. They are all over 60 yrs old and I keep them all seasoned and nothing sticks in them. Now you can burn something in them if the stove is too hot...thats common sense, but I use them often. I've treated my remmie in the same fashion and have had very good luck with the cleaning and no rust. I do the windex cleaning. I do agree that the grease only fills the voids in the iron but it does shed the moisture and keeps my gun free from rust, the same thing it does for my skillets! Happy shooting...Teresa

 

[Ferret]

I agree that the 'pores' are microscopic, and are all through the metal. I also agree that the 'pores' wont extend down into the metal by more than a miniscule amount.
The premise that i am useing is that, when the oils/fats/grease sets, the amount that 'soaks' into the pores will act as an anchor and fix a layer of lube to the metal.
My phrasiology with 'soaks in' is relative. I am not stating that the metal is a sponge and will soak the lube as a sponge soaks water. Although my next experiment may be 'seasoning' a steel tube, then setting it in a vice and seeing how much i can 'wring out' with a pipe wrench.

Anyhow, this whole thing seems to be working.
Seeing as I clean my milsurps with windex after shooting corrosive ammo, I rethought and decided that my 'big clean' would be done with windex, followed by a relube.
Didnt get around to finishing it last night, but will be completing tonight.
Its amazing how much crud is coming out of the bore and cylinders just with a spit and patch though. It is definately looking like the fouling is 'floating' on thin lube slick.

---edit---
Hmm what I am looking for after this 'big clean' is to see if there is ANY rusting or pitting anywhere on the gun. If there isnt, then I am quite sure that the 'seasoning' will have worked by forming a barrier between the metal and the fouling to keep the corrisive crud from working on the metal. It will also have allowed me to use the spit'n'patches without fear of the water and salt in the spit getting to the metal.
---end edit---

---edit 2---
Now, with all this talking about seasoning and skillets... do we have any volunteers to cook us all up a big pot o' bacon and beans??
That would be the REAL test... everyone (well.. some) knows that Bacon n Beans are the most corrosive substance known to man. Just look what it did to cowboys!!!! Brap... oh.. pardon me.
---end edit 2---

 

[Low Key]

I agree that the 'pores' are microscopic, and are all through the metal. I also agree that the 'pores' wont extend down into the metal by more than a miniscule amount.
The premise that i am useing is that, when the oils/fats/grease sets, the amount that 'soaks' into the pores will act as an anchor and fix a layer of lube to the metal.

That's it exactly. You harden the grease into the small imperfections in the metal surface and it "anchors" the grease you harden on top of it to form a much smoother surface than the metal casting process created and seals the metal off from air and moisture and other contaminants such as bp fouling.

 

[Ferret]

Rust... yeah.. rust!!!

Its been over 6 weeks since I 'cured' the metal..
Its been 4 weeks since soapy water touched this revolver!
Its been 2 weeks since it had even the slightest clean, which was a few squirts of windex and a wipe.
Its been just under a week since I last shot it (1860 v 17" oak) and that was with 35gr loads on a rainy day, with no cleaning (not even a wipe off).

Took it out of the holster last night and.... YEAH... rust!!!
A tiniest likkle bit of rust! A small amount of pitting!

Overall, I am happy with this 'experiment'. If I had cleaned the revolver after each shooting session, just cleaned with a little spray of windex to get the fouling of, and then a bit of bore butter or crisco, I am sure that this rust wouldnt have shown up.

Why did I keep leaving it without cleaning?? Cos I am trying to see just how long the 'seasoning' would keep out the rust.

So? What do I do now? Well, its not exactly what do I do not, as much as 'what have I just done'?

Cleaned the gun thoroughly with windex, then degreaser to remove all the seasoning. Then dumped near all the parts in vinegar for an hour. Washed the vinegar off with water and then dumped them all in bleach!

The next task has started. The nice and shiney blue 1860 aint blue any more. It aint shiney any more, it aint smooth any more...
Its nice and rusty! Nice and pitted! and now its in the oven at 300F smothered in Olive Oil spray!

What do you do with your revolver after you experiment with rust?
You rust 'antique' it!!!


pics are before it got cleaned up and trashed!!

Pics will follow showing just how much I am trashing it!!!

 

[Ferret]

One trashed Pietta!!!

Nicely trashed, even though I do do say so myself.
I am going to go back and add some faded blue to it, over the patina. Plus, I need to do something with the wood!!

The flash buggered up the pic a little.

 

[Low Key]

Now it looks like an original that was shoved in a holster 140 years ago and just rediscovered in great grandpa's old trunk! Nice job Ferret!