Explain to me how telescoping batons are effective

[azrocks]

I know nothing, I've never held one, and definitely never been hit with one.

But it looks to me like if you swung with enough force to do damage, you'd bend the baton.

Are these more harassing/distancing tools, or can they actually put someone down (consistently - not a lucky strike or extremely difficult maneuver)? Must you temper you strikes to avoid damage to the tool? Does the light weight prevent real damage from being done?

 

[badkarmamib]

They're too thick to deform easily, bone will deform before the steel. They add about 2 lbs and 2 feet to your swing. Not as effective as a firearm, more effective than your fist, or, IMHO, a knife.

 

[Vonderek]

I carry one when I walk my dog in case we encounter an aggressive loose dog. It creates distance and I think I can discourage an attack without killing the other dog as would happen with a handgun. I would not carry one for defense against humans.

 

[glistam]

I have owned and used several different types in several difference price ranges. There are a variety of cheap-skate batons on the market, and yes they will bend or deform if you strike with enough force, especially if you hit a harder object. These are the types sold in surplus stores and catalogs for mall-ninjas. They tend to be overly light weight as well.

However, the more expensive, higher quality models that are used by police forces are more than robust and can withstand a lot of punishment without deforming or getting jammed. Generally, this is your ASP Inc., Monadnock, and Peacekeeper Products. They are quite heavy and the better models have weight concentrated at the far end. They hit just as hard as a wooden stick, if not harder.

You also have to remember how a baton is supposed to be used in defense and law-enforcement: You're not trying to shatter bones to splinters or cave in a skull. And you're definitely not trying to knock someone unconscious via brain concussion. You might as well shoot somebody at that point. The goal is to disable the limbs by striking soft-tissue, or in some cases by merely threatening to do so, so the individual surrenders or at least stops doing what their doing.

 

[Yo Mama]

glistam I think nailed it! I had some cheap ones that bent if you looked at it wrong! all kidding aside, the cheap ones sucked.

 

[lemaymiami]

I was trained to use an ASP (factory sponsored training for my entire small agency - 100 sworn authorized, mostly we usually had five or more vacancies....) and carried one on the street for a few years before I retired out. All of the authorized training for them was essentially very defensive in nature - and head strikes were out (unless you were clearly in a situation where deadly force was justified). In use you were taught to stay mobile and out of reach while hitting joints (shoulders, elbows, knees, and ankles) until your opponent ceased his/her aggression... Put simply, even a small individual can survive a full out assault by staying out of reach while hitting the assailant over and over again, full speed and full force (without over-committing or using a two handed grip for additional leverage). The training we received included full combat against a trainer in a Red Man suit (which is exhausting....).

I was never in any street action where I needed to employ the baton - but I was confident with the training we'd received that I could at least hold out until help arrived (there are some individuals that might need a whole crew to subdue...). Nothing in any of the training had anything to do with knocking out or disabling an assailant at all.... but you could sure discourage even a determined opponent with strikes to where bone and major joints are easily pinpointed and impact areas are close to the surface.... As a side note early in my career, like many I knew, I carried a blackjack or sap... Maybe it was just me but the few times I ever hit someone with it - they just got angrier and more determined.... not a good situation at all...

Anyone who thinks that simply having a good quality collapsible baton will work is making a mistake -you really need the training to use it properly -since it's just not a weapon that you're going to hit someone over the head with until the fight is over...

 

[LeonCarr]

What everybody has said so far, and also that the collapsible baton can compactly be carried on your belt/person, unlike the 36 inch Maple "John Baker", the 24 inch Monadock Straight Stick, or the 24 inch with handle PR-24.

Carrying an ASP will allow you to have it when you need it, instead of that thing is too big I will leave it in the car.

Yes, they can actually put someone down. Also for those who carry them while walking the dog, etc. keep in mind that in most jurisdictions unless you are a Licensed Security Officer or Law Enforcement it is illegal to have one on your person.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[azrocks]

Outstanding information! Thanks to you all. Very informative.

 

[JShirley]

Yes, they can actually put someone down. Also for those who carry them while walking the dog, etc. keep in mind that in most jurisdictions unless you are a Licensed Security Officer or Law Enforcement it is illegal to have one on your person.

"Most", huh? Source?

 

[4thPointOfContact]

I'd kinda like to see those sources as well.

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

A sheriff bud of mine tapped me on the wrist with one. Wow, I could sense what the pain would be like. I would guess if a perp had a broken wrist and a flopping hand waving around the fight would stop right away. Think about it.

 

[hso]

John,

When I received my cert from ASP we were taught that they were restricted in most states making them illegal to cary without the certification unless you were LEO. Some states required just the cert while others added the state security guard requirement. We used to just require the cert, but the law appears to have changed to add the guard cert now (something else to roll back).

 

[Tirod]

I owned one of the early cheapies when they were made of good steel. The significant price difference because it lacked a foam grip was worth it.

I later trained in riot baton use and either way, you have certain issues. As an LEO you can only use them as a less than lethal step in the continuum of force - somewhere before just drawing and shooting. Nonetheless "improperly" used they are capable of lethal blows, and can certainly cripple and maim recipients. On the other hand - if disabling blows aren't used up front, the risk of angering the subject rather than subduing them means that if they get it away from you they will kill you with it.

Ergo banned for civilian use in many jurisdictions. You actually do need training to prevent killing people with these when you strike someone in the wrong place just once.

I would treat them the same as a CCW firearm. Don't drag it out unless you plan to significantly stop them with practiced disabling blows that have to be immediately effective. It's basically an issue of lethal force and you need to have justification for it. Otherwise you are just brandishing and the cause of escalating the confrontation, not defending yourself.

If I have to CCW that much dead weight all day better a Government 1911 than a baton. It has a certain amount of fail safe - the 1911 is a club after 7-8 rounds and less effective. The baton doesn't quit.

As for use, no, you never two hand. You snap it like a tomahawk. And that weapon is a lot more effective on the first strike.

 

[glistam]

When I received my cert from ASP we were taught that they were restricted in most states making them illegal to cary without the certification unless you were LEO. Some states required just the cert while others added the state security guard requirement. We used to just require the cert, but the law appears to have changed to add the guard cert now (something else to roll back).

I believe they were just being cautious by saying that. In a lot of states, they're not per se illegal, but the vague wording of the carry law could potentially be applied, and to date their isn't any case law one way or other the other. Most of the time, this means there would have to be some kind of evidence of criminal intent or behavior. Such states are MD, PA, VA, DC, VT, and NC. Notable that MD, VA and NC explicitly permit open carry, and VA technically only bans spring-loaded batons.

Some states they are totally legal to carry concealed without any cert or permit, like GA, AZ, SD, IN, or MA (yeah, go figure).

 

[lemaymiami]

I'm a bit out of date on the laws here in Florida since I retired out over 20 years ago now - but here's my understanding... with weapons that aren't firearms there are very few restrictions that I know of -particularly for an expandable baton... What you actually do with one will be the issue. If it's concealed on your person (or concealed within your ready reach...) you're in arrestable misdemeanor territory. Threaten with, or use one without justification and you're in felony territory...

Clear cut self defense and you're not going to have a problem. Be in a situation where everyone else present is a friend or ally of your opponent (and perfectly willing to lie...) then you can expect problems (not insurmountable - but who wants to be in that situation?).

Whether it's a firearm or an impact weapon - use only as a last resort, period... Anything else and you're going to need a lawyer (and lots of money).

 

[waterhouse]

With a decent collapsible baton (I used to use an ASP and now carry a Peacekeeper) you can hit people and things pretty hard with no damage to the baton. As mentioned, the general aiming points tend to be soft parts of the body, not bones. Most of the time I have used one it has been to stop a fight already in progress. A solid strike to the outer thigh puts most people on the ground. Areas like the head, spine, and joints are to be avoided.

In any sort of crowded area, I much prefer a side handle baton to the collapsible, but you have to use what you have on you.

I don't have the time to check all of the state laws, but when we were certified they told us that over half the states have laws against carrying things like "clubs" or "blunt weapons". A brief google search lists 19 states where they may be illegal. As always, check your state laws.

Personally, I'd prefer a cane or walking stick or something longer than an expanded baton for dog walking type defense, but to each their own.

 

[IlikeSA]

The baton has a small knob on the end. When you swing the baton, the outside of the arc is faster than the inside arc of your hand. The knob concentrates the force of the speed and mass into a small part of the body, hopefully incapacitating that muscle or muscle group temporarily.

 

[lemaymiami]

For me, in uniform on the street.... the best thing about an ASP or other good quality expandable baton was that you carried it with you at all times - yet it wasn't in any way threatening or obvious the way the old nightsticks were. You could also run and maneuver in tight quarters without your nightstick taking you down (another of those "ask me how know" moments).....

 

[LeonCarr]

Chapter 46 Texas Penal Code:

(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and includes but is not limited to the following:

(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(2) parole officers and neither section prohibits an officer from carrying a weapon in this state if the officer is:

(A) engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's duties while carrying the weapon; and

(B) in compliance with policies and procedures adopted by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice regarding the possession of a weapon by an officer while on duty;

(3) community supervision and corrections department officers appointed or employed under Section 76.004, Government Code, and neither section prohibits an officer from carrying a weapon in this state if the officer is:

(A) engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's duties while carrying the weapon; and

(B) authorized to carry a weapon under Section 76.0051, Government Code;

(4) an active judicial officer as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code, who is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code;

(5) an honorably retired peace officer, qualified retired law enforcement officer, federal criminal investigator, or former reserve law enforcement officer who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that is issued by a federal, state, or local law enforcement agency, as applicable, and that verifies that the officer is:

(A) an honorably retired peace officer;

(B) a qualified retired law enforcement officer;

(C) a federal criminal investigator; or

(D) a former reserve law enforcement officer who has served in that capacity not less than a total of 15 years with one or more state or local law enforcement agencies;

(6) a district attorney, criminal district attorney, county attorney, or municipal attorney who is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code;

(7) an assistant district attorney, assistant criminal district attorney, or assistant county attorney who is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code;

(8) a bailiff designated by an active judicial officer as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code, who is:

(A) licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and

(B) engaged in escorting the judicial officer; or

(9) a juvenile probation officer who is authorized to carry a firearm under Section 142.006, Human Resources Code.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by Section 437.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal institution;

(2) is traveling;

(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;

(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:

(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and

(B) is either:

(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or

(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

(6) is carrying:

(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and

(B) a handgun:

(i) in a concealed manner; or

(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster;

(7) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises; or

(8) is a student in a law enforcement class engaging in an activity required as part of the class, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity and the person is:

(A) on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted; or

(B) en route between those premises and the person's residence and is carrying the weapon unloaded.

(c) The provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a club does not apply to a noncommissioned security guard at an institution of higher education who carries a nightstick or similar club, and who has undergone 15 hours of training in the proper use of the club, including at least seven hours of training in the use of the club for nonviolent restraint. For the purposes of this subsection, "nonviolent restraint" means the use of reasonable force, not intended and not likely to inflict bodily injury.

(d) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a firearm or carrying of a club do not apply to a public security officer employed by the adjutant general under Section 437.053, Government Code, in performance of official duties or while traveling to or from a place of duty.

(e) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of an illegal knife do not apply to an individual carrying a bowie knife or a sword used in a historical demonstration or in a ceremony in which the knife or sword is significant to the performance of the ceremony.

(f) Section 46.03(a)(6) does not apply to a person who possesses a firearm or club while in the actual discharge of official duties as:

(1) a member of the armed forces or state military forces, as defined by Section 437.001, Government Code; or

(2) an employee of a penal institution.

(g) The provisions of Sections 46.02 and 46.03 prohibiting the possession or carrying of a club do not apply to an animal control officer who holds a certificate issued under Section 829.006, Health and Safety Code, and who possesses or carries an instrument used specifically for deterring the bite of an animal while the officer is in the performance of official duties under the Health and Safety Code or is traveling to or from a place of duty.

(h) Repealed by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 693, Sec. 3(1), eff. September 1, 2007.

(i) Repealed by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 693, Sec. 3(2), eff. September 1, 2007.

(j) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a handgun do not apply to an individual who carries a handgun as a participant in a historical reenactment performed in accordance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission.

 

[JShirley]

Well, thank you, Mr. Carr. So, we're going to generalize all states from what TX does? When I was ASP certified in GA, we were advised that the GA AG had issued an opinion that the expandable baton was a defensive weapon, and could be legally carried even without a CCW.

Now, I think it would be silly to generalize about what most places do from one state, but if you have sources proving your point, I'll be happy to see them.


John

 

[LeonCarr]

Fixed. No insult intended.

I won't list the weapons statutes from the other 49 states and Puerto Rico, but in MOST jurisdictions the nightstick/ASP still meets the definition of a club, and in MOST jurisdictions a club cannot be legally carried on or about your person without training and/or certification. Maybe in some jurisdictions with the passing of concealed carry/open carry handgun legislation the legislation may also extend to impact weapons but YMMV.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[glistam]

I won't list the weapons statutes from the other 49 states and Puerto Rico, but in MOST jurisdictions the nightstick/ASP still meets the definition of a club, and in MOST jurisdictions a club cannot be legally carried on or about your person without training and/or certification. Maybe in some jurisdictions with the passing of concealed carry/open carry handgun legislation the legislation may also extend to impact weapons but YMMV.

I haven't done the math on batons specifically, so it's possible it's true that 26 states prohibit carry, but frequently the implication is the ban is near-universal, which it most certainly is not (see my previous post for examples). I think it's probably time I started another list on my website (it's in my signature) like I did for switchblade laws. Baton seem to fall by the wayside because they are neither knives nor guns, so they don't have advocacy groups.

 

[sw0596]

In my experience, which is dated, I'm a 2 year retired and now fat and lazy ex cop......in theory an expandable baton can be devastating. The idea is to strike with the ball on the tip in soft tissue areas where nerves are found such as the common peronial nerve on the side of the thigh above the knee. When applied exactly that way, the bad guy IS going down. You will not get that result with a strike on the "blade" or shaft of the baton, especially if adrenaline or drugs is involved. Believe me, I'm speaking from experience. Now the problem, it is not easy to strike the exact target spots with that little round knob on the end. I'll tell you what I got significantly more wanted reactions from that an expandable baton. For my first decade of policing I was on morning watch (night shift). Hence, when I exited my car I always had a 4 D cell flashlight in my left hand. Several times when a fight broke out, I opted to not waste time to drop the light to grab the ASP. I NEVER failed to get a reaction to stop the fight with the light regardless if I missed my specific target or whatever part of the light made impact. I never had a bad guy stay still enough to let me line up that little round knob on a target spot.

 

[JShirley]

requently the implication is the ban is near-universal, which it most certainly is not (see my previous post for examples). I think it's probably time I started another list on my website (it's in my signature) like I did for switchblade laws

I think that would be very useful. I wasn't asking just to prove a point: if someone has a fairly exhaustive list of where they are allowed, and whether CCW is required to carry, I really would love to see it.

John

 

[JShirley]

This looked like a promising site, but after glancing over it, the website appears to be assuming that expandable batons fall into the "blackjack, sap, club" group in the 19 states they list.

Short version: more research needed, but it appears expandable baton carry could be much less restricted than many people assume. Unless specifically allowed by law, I would want a written opinion from the state AG.

John