Extra cast bullet diameter with coating? .357 mag cylinder fit problems

[Esoteria]

UPDATE 8/4/15: I contacted Missouri Bullet about the problem. Brad got back to me quickly, found that their sizing die for coated .358" had worn out faster than expected, causing the extra diameter, and sent me a new box. Helpful people on this thread have given me several things to try to eliminate the stubborn "crud rings" that are the main source of the problem. So far the problem's not gone, but it's getting better, and I'm still working through suggestions. Original post follows....

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Hi all,

I started reloading about a year ago with 45-70 and I caught the bug. Now I'm reloading 5 calibers and going through about 1000 bullets a month.

Biggest volume is 38 special / .357 magnum. I've been getting most of my bullets from Missouri Bullet company and I've been very impressed with their prices and consistency.

However, my current favorite bullet, the "Cowboy #2" 125 grain flat point does throw a lot of lead fouling around from the cylinder gap and so I tried the same with the Hi-Tek coating.

(A) The coating solved the dirty problem, but the "crud rings" in the chambers still build up at about the same rate and, more importantly,

(B) the coating seems to add about 0.001" to the bullet diameter, and this is enough to make it *very* difficult to get .357 magnums in the chamber, especially if I've built up the ring mentioned in Problem A. I'm shooting a Dan Wesson 15-2. It's the only 357 I own, so I don't know if the chambers have an unusually tight tolerance and this isn't as big of a problem for other guns.

So I have two questions:

(1) Is there any trick to getting rid of that ring? I've tried the trick of using a sharpened empty .357 magnum case but to no avail. I'm got some of the new-fangled FireClean oil but even if it's as good as people say, I'm guessing it'll only help *prevent* build up, not remove it.

(2) Can anyone else verify that Missouri Bullets consistently get another 0.001" diameter from the Hi-Tek coating? I understand the bullets can be sized before or after applying the coating, and I know Eggleston does it afterward. Did I just get an unusual batch or can I count on the extra diameter in my orders going forward? For the extra couple of bucks per 500 bullets, I like the idea of the Hi-Tek coating because I can shoot a few hundred rounds without my hands getting filthy. Therefore I'm actually thinking of ordering 9mm bullets, because at .356" plus the extra 0.001" I should be back at the .357" that my DW's chambers seem to like. Does this make sense?

Thanks in advance!

Side note (as if I wasn't long-winded enough): This is an interesting experience for me. I joined THR about 7 years ago to ask about an issue with my first gun, a .22 rifle. Now I'm posting 7 years later asking a somewhat detailed reloading question. Hah....

 

[Rule3]

The bullets are sized AFTER the coating is applied so the dimensions should be the same as a no coated bullet.

The empty brass "trick" is not a sharpened case but a case that has been flared just enough that it is difficult to insert in the chamber. It should require tapping with a small hammer or piece of wood.

It is best to clean the cylinders with solvent and a bore brush, then use the flared case, then clean again with a oversize bore brush,

Some guys chuck a chamber brush on a drill and spin it around in each cylinder.

 

[Esoteria]

Thanks! I'll try those things as far as cleaning the chambers.

I neglected to mention I'd flared and then "sharpened" the case using a basic deburring tool when I tried that. I did have to use a dowel to tap it in, but it seemed like the brass just moved out of the way instead of actually scraping off the ring. =(

I think my .357 brush is a little worn out so I'll try a .40 and/or the drill method.

As far as the bullet sizing, I have had two boxes of 500 Cowboy #2 uncoated from MBC, and two boxes coated. Half a dozen samples from each box all came in at .3575" or .358" for the uncoated, and .3585" or .359" from the coated. I loaded them side by side and the uncoated cast lead will slip into the chamber fine, but the coated one is either really tough or nigh impossible to chamber.

So either there's increased diameter from the coating or the bullet diameter from MBC varies by as much as 0.001" box-to-box. Based on my sample size of 4 (which might just be 2, since they were likely from the same lots), I'm guessing it's the former, but that's why I'm asking if anyone else had this experience.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Walkalong]

A .40 brush, some solvent, and a drill will clean the chambers and throats up real nicely.

What load was leading up the cylinder?

 

[Esoteria]

I'm not sure I could narrow it down to a particular load. Here's what I've used so far. Some of these have been changed slightly when I move between 357 magnum and 38 special cases.

(Disclaimer: I'm still new to reloading, I don't recommend using these loads)
125 gr FP / 5.0 gr Unique
125 gr FP / 4.6 gr Bullseye
140 gr FP / 3.6 gr Bullseye
140 gr FP / 6.8 gr CFE Pistol

All the 140s and most of the 125s were uncoated. I haven't done any +P level loads in .38 special cases. Everything's been pretty much in the cowboy action category unless in a magnum case.

I also had a hotter Unique load (which I can't find right now) and liked both of them but they fell off because I haven't been able to find Unique in ages and I'm saving what little I have for low-recoil 45-70 loads.

The CFE pistol is a similar experiment since Bullseye is harder to come by now. Haven't used it much. Seems to work fine though.

I tried the .357 brush and drill and it helped a little, but not much. The .359" coated bullets are still a beast to chamber. I don't have a .40 on hand but I'll pick one up later on and give it a shot.

 

[Rule3]

As to the cleaning. stuff a patch with some solvent in each cylinder, (penetrating oil, WD 40, Hoppes) whatever you have and let it sit for a long time, at least an hour, then try scrubbing. It will loosen it up some.

The Hi Teck coatings use acetone so you can try that but only in the cylinders, do not slop it all over or it may mess up grips or bluing. Also it evaporates very fast,

Lots of folks do not let the chemicals work long enough.

 

[ljnowell]

It seems like I see this with the coated bullets often. The slightly oversize thing. There was a user here who had the issue and Missouri bullet replaced then.

 

[mdi]

I have reloaded and shot mebbe 1,500 powder coated bullets (.38/.35, .44, 45 ACP, 9mm, 303, 7.62x54r). I use the same methods (case prep, sizing) as I do nekkid lead bullets. Also use same fit dimensions as lead (measured bullet diameter same as measured cylinder throat diameter). No problems...

Commercial casters that powder coat seem to not resize after coating. My coating is about .0015" thick and I always size after curing the PC.

 

[Esoteria]

Interesting -- So it sounds like I really shouldn't expect the over-size?
Guess that makes the 9mm (.356") + coating a bad idea.

I'll contact Missouri Bullet about it and see what they say.

Leaving soaked patches in the chambers for a while sounds like a winning strategy. I have some black powder cleaning patches that ought to do the job, so I'll give that a shot along with the .40 cal brush and report back.

Thanks for all the insight. Still interested if anyone else has seen the extra 0.001", too.

 

[dogrunner]

Pick up a Lewis lead remover............Brownell's has 'em. Quickest and easiest method I know of for removing fouling as you describe.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

Others have you on the right track to getting the chambers cleaned up. But in case the coated bullets still give you trouble after thoroughly cleaning your revolver, you may want to consider purchasing one of these http://www.midwayusa.com/product/34...nd-size-kit-357-diameter?cm_vc=ProductFinding It would add an extra step to your reloading process but it should solve the problem. Lee also makes a .356 and .358 in case you want to experiment with different sizes.

 

[BigBore45]

It seems like I see this with the coated bullets often. The slightly oversize thing. There was a user here who had the issue and Missouri bullet replaced then.

It was me that had the problem, they replaced the bullets, just give Brad a call.

 

[Esoteria]

@dogrunner I remember seeing those before, now that you've pointed me at it. Seemed like overkill at the time (before I had this problem), but now it's looking pretty tempting. I'm gonna try these cheaper methods first but thanks a lot for the reminder. It's encouraging to know that this is enough of a problem that someone's developed a tool like this to deal with it.

@KansasSasquatch You know, I guess I always thought bullet sizers were the rather expensive stand-alone bench-mounted units. It didn't occur to me that there would be a regular press die for it. That said, I think in this case I need a high volume solution and while I would definitely enjoy getting into some of the finer aspects of reloading I think resizing each bullet may be impractical when I'm shooting a couple hundred rounds each week. Definitely worth keeping an eye on, though. It says it can install gas checks as part of the sizing process, so maybe this would be an inexpensive way to use cast bullets for rifle rounds in the future.

 

[Esoteria]

@BigBore45 Wow, the man himself! Thanks for confirming. I did just send them a message explaining the problem and I linked this thread. We'll see what they come back with. MBC's been so good on price and quality thus far that I'm not ready to jump ship just because of this.

 

[ljnowell]

@BigBore45 Wow, the man himself! Thanks for confirming. I did just send them a message explaining the problem and I linked this thread. We'll see what they come back with. MBC's been so good on price and quality thus far that I'm not ready to jump ship just because of this.

They are great people, no need to jump ship.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, do what everyone else does.

Get you one of them great Lee FCD post sizers and squish the bullets down inside the cases so they fit everything!!

rc

 

[KansasSasquatch]

You'd be surprised how quickly you can size 500 bullets. The bullets you're buying are advertised as being sized to .358. But MBC will custom size bullets, I'm sure .357 would be easy enough for them to do. From their FAQ on their website:

Can I request special sizing or can I change the type of alloy I want used?
Yes. Give us a call to place your special order.

I'm not sure if there's a minimum order though. But it sounds like you're shooting quite a bit of them. It might be worth ordering X number if you don't want to take the time to size them yourself.

 

[joneb]

Have you tried R-P brass, it has a thinner case wall.

 

[Esoteria]

@joneb actually it's good that you mention that. As I mentioned I'm still fairly new to reloading even though I've been doing some medium volumes in the past year. I'm using a mix of GFL and Starline brass, and I understand Starline is typically a little thicker than other brass. I've definitely found this to be true in personal experience, or at least that it's "tougher," because I can always tell the difference between Starline and my other brass in 45 colt and 45-70 when they go through the dies. Starline always takes more force. I hadn't noticed as much difference on .357, but it's probably playing a role.
I'd identified two factors contributing to the problem: lead fouling in the chamber and extra bullet diameter. But this is a 3rd factor: case wall thickness. I seem to have a perfect storm going on here. I guess that means my DW's chambers probably don't have tighter chambers than normal, though, which is good news for my type of plinking/high volume shooting.

 

[Sunray]

The "crud rings" in the chambers goes away if you load .357 cases to .38 Special velocities. A .45 calibre brush takes it right out, but using .357 cases eliminates it altogether.
The fouling around the cylinder gap isn't lead. It's powder residue and lube gunk. Same thing as the crud in the chambers. Regular cleaning remove it.
"...this is enough to make it *very* difficult to..." More likely that you're not removing enough flare/belling. One thou shouldn't matter. In any case, .358" is the standard diameter for a cast bullet.

 

[Esoteria]

Update follows. Brad at MBC got back to me briefly saying that he didn't feel like the coating should add more than half a thousandth and that he'd look into it more. (Does this confirm that MBC is doing coating *after* resizing, though?)

I tried leaving the soaked cleaning patches in chambers for several hours and then used a .40 cal brush on them. This helped a little more.

On Saturday I needed "extra force" (thumb push or more) to fully chamber about 90% of the coated bullet reloads and about 50% of the uncoated bullet reloads. At this point I'm at about 5% of the uncoated bullet reloads, and since I shot all my coated ones I can't compare there (but presumably it got better too).

I set aside all the cartridges that either stuck a bit when using the extractor (these are unfired, uncoated, mind you), or required the thumb push to get in. This came to about 6 rounds. I noticed (1) they're all all the GFL brass (not the Starline like I speculated), and (2) I can't for the life of me find anything different about them using a micrometer.

No noticeable difference in the "problem" reloads vs. ones that drop into the chambers with no problem. SAAMI specs all line up. They're all between .377" and .379" in outside case diameter the whole way down. OAL does vary a fair bit (1.571" to 1.583"), probably because I haven't trimmed the cases before, but this is all under the specified maximum of 1.590" and more importantly there's no apparent correlation between OAL and whether the cartridge gets stuck or requires extra force.

All of this testing was on the uncoated bullet reloads, which were definitely 0.001" less in diameter both loaded and unloaded. However, to Sunray's point, the problem can't be *only* the extra 0.001" diameter, because even with that out of the equation I get a failure rate (although it's pretty low). I kept one coated bullet reload and it now falls into the chamber properly. I wonder if this has to do with being test-fitted in chambers several dozen times, though. The brass is slightly marred near the neck, presumably from rubbing against the "crud rings."

Even if I could maintain a 5% "stick" rate, I can't really use speed loaders reliably.

This is frustrating. I'm assuming this is still the "crud ring" doing all the damage, but I could be wrong. The only other theory I have right now that makes sense relative to my micrometer measurements is that my problem reloads are oblong -- i.e. not truly circular around the bore axis. Is that a thing that happens? ()

Also, my hat goes off to anyone still following this thread.

UPDATE: I tried 50 reloads in .38 special cases (not sure why I didn't think to try this before). Every one chambered easily -- dropped in with the "click" sound of the rim hitting the recess. This is almost frustrating, because I know this is how my .357 magnums *should* drop in every time.

 

[joneb]

If the brass length varies to much and you set the crimp on a short case, you will over crimp the longer cases and bulge the case mouth. I trim my revolver brass to get a consistent crimp on every round.

 

[BigBore45]

I had this problem, i measured the O.D. of the bullet and came up large. Here is a link to the thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=783647


i load the bullets you are talking about in my wife's .38 Sp. no problems as with most on the .45 bullets, i just got a bad batch. the new bullets Brad sent for free are spot on .452. and load fine.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

From the MBC FAQ page (italics added for emphasis):

What is the Hi-Tek coating and how is it applied?
The coating is made in Australia and imported here. We are currently lining to up distribute this coating along with unsized/unlubed bullets so that folks can apply the coating themselves. The coating itself consists of a catalyst which binds a polymeric colorant agent with acetone which is then applied in bulk to raw bullets and baked onto the bullets' surface at nearly 400 degrees. The coating is a polymer (bonded with metal) and forms an extremely tough new surface for the bullet. The application of the coating is repeated for an additional coat. The bullets are then sized normally but not lubricated, as the coating itself acts as bullet lube. Nominal bullet diameter is not affected.

So the bullets are sized after coating and should be the same diameter.

Also, cleaning revolver chambers is one of the only places where I use a stainless steel brush. Another solution is Gun Brite Polish, which also is good for cleaning the carbon off the front of the cylinder.

 

[BigBore45]

i soak my wifes .357 in simple green ( their purple industrial stuff) over night and simply go threw it with a .40 cal brush a few times and all that buildup is gone with a couple swipes. i would make sure your cylinder is in spec before you go to the bullet. that being said, i had the over sized issue on some .45 cal bullets from MBC just a few weeks ago. and they replaced them without any cost to me, best part is the new bullets load and fit perfectly!