againstthagrane
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Can someone please explain eye relief to me? is a higher or lower number preferable? i want to get a millet DMS-1 and i wanted to know if the listed 3.5 inches is desirable or not.
Eye Relief
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againstthagrane
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.223/ar-15
can someone please explain the overall concept of eye relief?
can someone please explain the overall concept of eye relief?
Zerodefect
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The thing with scopes is you need that scope to be located a certain distance away from your eye.
If your too close or too far away some of your field of vision will be blurred black. Often called "scope shadow". If your too far to the side you'll get shadow.
This is why scopes are a bad choice on a defensive rifle like the AR where you may get stuck shooting from an odd position, laying on your side shooting through a hole in the wall (urban prone) or off hand around a baricade. But for REESE or SPR type Ar's they're fine as long as you have a quick release and good BUIS.
Even Trijicon ACOG's, Accupoints, and 1x Nightforce scopes can "shadow" if your head is in a incorrect position. My Trijicon 5-20x 50mm scope is awesome, but when I increase magnification from 5X up to 20X I also need to close my stock 1 click for the proper eye relief.
Usually a Larue LT109 is perfect for most all scopes that have any buisiness on an AR. Maybe the extra extended relief version for the 1x Accupoint or 1x Nightforce if your using the proper squared up and nose to charging handle stance.
If your too close or too far away some of your field of vision will be blurred black. Often called "scope shadow". If your too far to the side you'll get shadow.
This is why scopes are a bad choice on a defensive rifle like the AR where you may get stuck shooting from an odd position, laying on your side shooting through a hole in the wall (urban prone) or off hand around a baricade. But for REESE or SPR type Ar's they're fine as long as you have a quick release and good BUIS.
Even Trijicon ACOG's, Accupoints, and 1x Nightforce scopes can "shadow" if your head is in a incorrect position. My Trijicon 5-20x 50mm scope is awesome, but when I increase magnification from 5X up to 20X I also need to close my stock 1 click for the proper eye relief.
Usually a Larue LT109 is perfect for most all scopes that have any buisiness on an AR. Maybe the extra extended relief version for the 1x Accupoint or 1x Nightforce if your using the proper squared up and nose to charging handle stance.
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againstthagrane
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ok, so indulge me. i understand the concept now, BUT i still don't know if a 3.5inch eye relief refers to the maximum distance away or the minimum distance away.
thanks for you replies so far though. i'm slowly getting an idea of whats going on.
thanks for you replies so far though. i'm slowly getting an idea of whats going on.
Dr T
Member
Eye relief is usually given as a range, say 3" - 3.5". That means that if your eye is between between 3 and 3.5 inches from the scope, you will have a clear field of view.
I prefer a wider range (say 3.25 to 4 inches) and regard a wide range as better than a narrow range. This allows me to move the scope back and forth in the rings to find the spot that feels right before tightening every thing down. Also, a longer eye relief has allowed me to avoid that crescent shaped scar over the eyebrow.
I prefer a wider range (say 3.25 to 4 inches) and regard a wide range as better than a narrow range. This allows me to move the scope back and forth in the rings to find the spot that feels right before tightening every thing down. Also, a longer eye relief has allowed me to avoid that crescent shaped scar over the eyebrow.
Zerodefect
member
Yup, it's kinda both. You can't go closer or farther away than about 1/2" from the recommended eye relief before thinks get screwy.
Kentucky_Rifleman
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Also, longer eye relief and broader range (4-5" for example) make for quicker target acquisition on pull-up. I hunt, and longer, more forgiving reliefs can mean the difference between getting off a clean shot or not.
I also shoot Whitetail with .375 Holland and Holland, and the extra relief has left both my eyebrows intact
KR
I also shoot Whitetail with .375 Holland and Holland, and the extra relief has left both my eyebrows intact
KR
dagger dog
Member
Then there are scopes with EER= extended eye relief, for forward mounting on a scout type rifle, and on hard kicking slug guns etc.
Eye relief as a specification published by manufacturers is the distance that your eye has to be from the rear of the scope to attain a sight picture. When a range is stated, for example 4-5", it is usually because the eye relief changes as the magnification changes. Leupolds and Trijicons are notorious for this. I don't build scopes, I only use them so I don't know why this is and it is the reason that I prefer Nikon and Sightron over Leupold and Trijicon.
What eye relief is was already mentioned, but that is only really half the story. You've already read about scope shadow as it relates to eye relief. If you have your head too far back, you won't be able to see through it and if you have your eye too far off center from the scope, you won't be able to see through it.
When considering a scope, I also like to consider how forgiving it is, in terms of how far back I can have my head from the optimal eye relief distance AND how far off of center I can have my head and still see through the scope. The forgiveness that a scope will offer varies directly with the size of the exit pupil. The bigger the exit pupil, the more forgiving a scope will be. The exit pupil can be calculated by dividing the size of the objective lens by the level of magnification. I think that a Trijicon 20X with a 50mm objective was mentioned above, so I'll use that as an example. When set to 20X magnification the exit pupil will be 2.5mm, which is small. Really small. At this magnification, it's going to be really finicky about cheek weld and distance of your eye from the bell. At 10X, the exit pupil will be 5mm and that's a pretty good exit pupil. You will get a good level of light at dusk and dawn and it will be more forgiving with regard to cheek weld.
If you think of the exit pupil as a beam of light that is shining through a hole it is easier to understand the effect that it has on what your eye sees. If you poke a hole in a piece of paper with a toothpick (exit pupil), you'll be able to see through it, but only if you line up your pupil exactly with the hole. Now if you poke a hole through a piece of paper with a pencil (larger exit pupil), your eye doesn't have to be as exact behind the hole to see through it. It's the same thing with scopes, generally speaking. Of course, at some point, quality of the glass and manufacturing comes into play too.
I don't want to get flamed or anything, because I know that many on a budget like the DMS-1, but I consider it a step above a piece of junk. The glass is mediocre at best, it big for what it is (12 inches) and it's heavy (weighs a pound). For comparison, my Nightforce 2.5-10X is 12 inches long and weighs just over a pound and is a lot more scope. If the tacticool reticle is what you just have to have, then go for it. You aren't going to find a decent scope with a lit reticle at that price point (except for maybe the Konus). If you want good clear glass for about the same price, I'd look at the Leupold Mark AR, Nikon African and Sightron SII Big Sky 1.25-5X20 (really good prices at manventureoutpost.com).
If this is going on an AR, you might want to keep the eye relief in the 3-4" range. The AR doesn't kick much and the shorter eye relief will make it easier to mount. My scopes usually wind up being mounted with the bell just forward of the charging handle using a cantilever mount. If you have much more eye relief, you'll wind up using a scout type mount that will have the scope way forward. I try to avoid this because it throws the balance of the rifle off and it looks funky.
Oh, I don't know what your budget it, but if you are looking for a good scope with a lit reticle, the newer Trijicon Accupoint, the TR24 I believe, with the 30mm tube has a constant eye relief all through the magnification range. If you don't want to spend that much, look at the three that I mentioned. Of the three, I really liked the Sightron. The Leupold had that thing where I had to change my cheek weld when I dialed up the magnification. The Nikon African was really nice, I just preferred the Sightron. It was built really well and the setting were very repeatable.
What eye relief is was already mentioned, but that is only really half the story. You've already read about scope shadow as it relates to eye relief. If you have your head too far back, you won't be able to see through it and if you have your eye too far off center from the scope, you won't be able to see through it.
When considering a scope, I also like to consider how forgiving it is, in terms of how far back I can have my head from the optimal eye relief distance AND how far off of center I can have my head and still see through the scope. The forgiveness that a scope will offer varies directly with the size of the exit pupil. The bigger the exit pupil, the more forgiving a scope will be. The exit pupil can be calculated by dividing the size of the objective lens by the level of magnification. I think that a Trijicon 20X with a 50mm objective was mentioned above, so I'll use that as an example. When set to 20X magnification the exit pupil will be 2.5mm, which is small. Really small. At this magnification, it's going to be really finicky about cheek weld and distance of your eye from the bell. At 10X, the exit pupil will be 5mm and that's a pretty good exit pupil. You will get a good level of light at dusk and dawn and it will be more forgiving with regard to cheek weld.
If you think of the exit pupil as a beam of light that is shining through a hole it is easier to understand the effect that it has on what your eye sees. If you poke a hole in a piece of paper with a toothpick (exit pupil), you'll be able to see through it, but only if you line up your pupil exactly with the hole. Now if you poke a hole through a piece of paper with a pencil (larger exit pupil), your eye doesn't have to be as exact behind the hole to see through it. It's the same thing with scopes, generally speaking. Of course, at some point, quality of the glass and manufacturing comes into play too.
I don't want to get flamed or anything, because I know that many on a budget like the DMS-1, but I consider it a step above a piece of junk. The glass is mediocre at best, it big for what it is (12 inches) and it's heavy (weighs a pound). For comparison, my Nightforce 2.5-10X is 12 inches long and weighs just over a pound and is a lot more scope. If the tacticool reticle is what you just have to have, then go for it. You aren't going to find a decent scope with a lit reticle at that price point (except for maybe the Konus). If you want good clear glass for about the same price, I'd look at the Leupold Mark AR, Nikon African and Sightron SII Big Sky 1.25-5X20 (really good prices at manventureoutpost.com).
If this is going on an AR, you might want to keep the eye relief in the 3-4" range. The AR doesn't kick much and the shorter eye relief will make it easier to mount. My scopes usually wind up being mounted with the bell just forward of the charging handle using a cantilever mount. If you have much more eye relief, you'll wind up using a scout type mount that will have the scope way forward. I try to avoid this because it throws the balance of the rifle off and it looks funky.
Oh, I don't know what your budget it, but if you are looking for a good scope with a lit reticle, the newer Trijicon Accupoint, the TR24 I believe, with the 30mm tube has a constant eye relief all through the magnification range. If you don't want to spend that much, look at the three that I mentioned. Of the three, I really liked the Sightron. The Leupold had that thing where I had to change my cheek weld when I dialed up the magnification. The Nikon African was really nice, I just preferred the Sightron. It was built really well and the setting were very repeatable.
againstthagrane
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Thanks for all of the info guys, I'm geting a much clearer picture now. ( no pun intended).
Out of curiousity other than the dms-1 what other scopes canyou recommend with either a bullet drop reticle or an illuminated reticle for under $350?
I know this may derail the thread, but it's my hot thread, I do what I want!
Out of curiousity other than the dms-1 what other scopes canyou recommend with either a bullet drop reticle or an illuminated reticle for under $350?
I know this may derail the thread, but it's my hot thread, I do what I want!
Well. I like it OK, but you are right, the scope will need to be mounted way forward. Good news is its easier to keep an open eye on everything else with it farther forward.
I have a Nikon Omega 1.65X5X36 scope on my range rifle. It has great glass and is a lot of scope for the money IMHO. A lower power would be easier to shoot for any length of time using two eyes. The Omega has 5" of eye relief. I would like to try this new Nikon 1X4 power on my AR.
Neat video on the new Nikon AR scopes.
.
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Cosmik de Bris
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The DMS-1 is not a bad scope, for the money I think it is a pretty good scope but it all depends on what you want it for. The DMS is used quite a bit in 3-gun and its users do quite well with it. It is true 1X and allows both eyes open shooting at close range and zooms out to 4X for longer shots. The illumination isn't fantastic but is OK in poor light conditions. You can do a lot worse.
Cheers
Cheers
If you have plenty of time to set up your shot 3.5" is good enough, but I much prefer 4-5".
For those times when you have to quickly mount and shoot the short eye relief scopes take too much time to find your target.
If you have to twist your body in a treestand because the deer came from an unexpected direction you may not be able to get a perfect mount. Longer eye relief helps you see the target where a scope with less eye relief may not allow you to get off the shot.
Sight in your short eye relief scope in August wearing a T-shirt and you may find the set up no longer fits you in November when you are wearing a heavy jacket.
A longer eye relief scope is more forgiving in all of these situations.
I'm not at all concerned about being hit by the scope, even on shorter eye relief scopes. That can be avoided by correct form, but if everything else is somewhat equal, I always choose a scope with longer eye relief.
For those times when you have to quickly mount and shoot the short eye relief scopes take too much time to find your target.
If you have to twist your body in a treestand because the deer came from an unexpected direction you may not be able to get a perfect mount. Longer eye relief helps you see the target where a scope with less eye relief may not allow you to get off the shot.
Sight in your short eye relief scope in August wearing a T-shirt and you may find the set up no longer fits you in November when you are wearing a heavy jacket.
A longer eye relief scope is more forgiving in all of these situations.
I'm not at all concerned about being hit by the scope, even on shorter eye relief scopes. That can be avoided by correct form, but if everything else is somewhat equal, I always choose a scope with longer eye relief.
I really don't see how it can be said that a scope with longer eye relief is going to be more forgiving. Whether the scope is going to be forgiving is going to be determined my the size of the exit pupil. If the scope is set at a magnification wherein the exit pupil is at 4mm, I would imagine that having your head closer to the scope would make lining it up easier by virtue of a shorter available range of motion. Now we're just debating and not helping this guy out with choosing a scope.
Please understand that over the course of the last year, I've literally spent thousands trying to find the scope that made me feel like I had a real winner. When you state a fixed budget as you have and then throw in things like BDC AND a lit reticle AND variable power, it makes things difficult. After trying countless less expensive scopes, I've found that glass quality stands out above all else. I've found that having a lit reticle doesn't help in low light if you can't see anything through the scope because the glass sucks. The lit reticle is about useless in the bright daylight and only becomes useful when light is scarce. BDC doesn't help if you start to have parallax issues at distances where the BDC would be useful. If you have a good scope with good glass, it will more often than not make up for the lack of a lit reticle due to the clarity of the image.
Since you have your budget and your mind set, you might want to try out the scope similar to the DMS-1 that is sold by Primary Arms. It's still a Chinese scope, but the guy selling it will stand behind it and if you have a problem, you won't be standing in the "red tape" line with the manufacturer. A+ customer service over there.
If you can extend your budget a bit, you should look into the IOR Valdada fixed 4X. It has a lit BDC reticle AND good glass for around $500. It's also built well.
As for the claims that you NEED a "true" 1X to shoot with both eyes open, that's complete bull. I had no problems at all shooting a TA33 ACOG 3X with both eyes open and I shoot an ACOG 1.5X16 as my primary optic on my light carbine with both eye open. The fact of the matter is that even with a "true" 1X, by the time you focus it so that the reticle is clear, you are applying some kind of magnification anyway.
Another thing to watch out for with lit reticle scopes is that they have a setting low enough for night use. I've seen quite a few low cost scopes with lit reticles where it was pretty evident that the designers were pre occupied with accomplishing the impossible, making the reticle appear lit in bright sunlight. The downside is that the setting are so bright that the reticle blooms at night making it all but useless. I haven't owned all of the lit reticle scopes, but the only one that I've owned that had useful night settings is my Nightforce.
Please understand that over the course of the last year, I've literally spent thousands trying to find the scope that made me feel like I had a real winner. When you state a fixed budget as you have and then throw in things like BDC AND a lit reticle AND variable power, it makes things difficult. After trying countless less expensive scopes, I've found that glass quality stands out above all else. I've found that having a lit reticle doesn't help in low light if you can't see anything through the scope because the glass sucks. The lit reticle is about useless in the bright daylight and only becomes useful when light is scarce. BDC doesn't help if you start to have parallax issues at distances where the BDC would be useful. If you have a good scope with good glass, it will more often than not make up for the lack of a lit reticle due to the clarity of the image.
Since you have your budget and your mind set, you might want to try out the scope similar to the DMS-1 that is sold by Primary Arms. It's still a Chinese scope, but the guy selling it will stand behind it and if you have a problem, you won't be standing in the "red tape" line with the manufacturer. A+ customer service over there.
If you can extend your budget a bit, you should look into the IOR Valdada fixed 4X. It has a lit BDC reticle AND good glass for around $500. It's also built well.
As for the claims that you NEED a "true" 1X to shoot with both eyes open, that's complete bull. I had no problems at all shooting a TA33 ACOG 3X with both eyes open and I shoot an ACOG 1.5X16 as my primary optic on my light carbine with both eye open. The fact of the matter is that even with a "true" 1X, by the time you focus it so that the reticle is clear, you are applying some kind of magnification anyway.
Another thing to watch out for with lit reticle scopes is that they have a setting low enough for night use. I've seen quite a few low cost scopes with lit reticles where it was pretty evident that the designers were pre occupied with accomplishing the impossible, making the reticle appear lit in bright sunlight. The downside is that the setting are so bright that the reticle blooms at night making it all but useless. I haven't owned all of the lit reticle scopes, but the only one that I've owned that had useful night settings is my Nightforce.
Oh, I just had something come to mind. If you just want that tactical feel to your rig, check out the stuff at Primary Arms. The guy sells quality knock off equipment and upper scale stuff too. Anyway, he has a red dot/magnifier setup that would fall right into your budget. No BDC, but lit all the way. When I was running a red dot, I would sight in at 100 yards using the bottom of the dot. That way at 50 yards the top of the dot would be pretty much right on.
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