FAB-10 in 9mm or .22LR?

[marklbucla]

Does anyone know if it's possible and legal to convert a FAB-10 with the fixed .223 mag into a 9mm or .22LR?

I just got back from a dealer and noone was certain.

 

[El Rojo]

I would think it is possible if you were able to permantly attach a 10 round 9mm magazine in the FAB-10 mag well. It must be riveted in there or welded in there.

Now as far as the .22 LR goes, that is not a "Centerfire" rifle with a detachable magazine. I would think that the lower would have to be altered in order to make the easy switching between .22 LR and .223 pretty much impossible. I would just permantly attach the .22 LR mag in there just to be safe.

I would say if you made the gun to where the magazine easily detaches in any manner, you would be in violation. I think mechanically you can do these things, but legally is a different question and is best brought up with the BATFE or CA DOJ.

 

[artherd]

I'm not a lawyer, and you'd be best served in contacting one.

However, I see no reason what so ever that the caliber of the FAB-10 system when assembled into a rifle is important in any way.

Just make sure you keep the same mode of operation so as to not go outside the FAB-10's exemption.


_____________________
The following is not to do with answering your question:


All of that said, can anyone show me a reason why a perfectly conventional AR that is just missing the mag-release BUTTON is not the same as a FAB-10?


12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.






978.20 Definitions

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
_

(a)
"detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine._
_

(b)
"flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision. _
_

(c)
"forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger._
_

(d)
"pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing._
_

(e)
"thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.
_

NOTE:_
Authority cited: Section 12276.5(i), Penal Code. Reference: Sections 12276.1, 12280, and 12285, Penal Code.





So, then would an AR-15 with just a spring loaded mag-catch mechanism, BUT NO MAG RELEASE BUTTON (that would require you to drop the mag by pressing in with a punch or a round of ammunition, but would still allow you to quickly ATTACH a mag) be a legal long-gun?

How come this is not done?

 

[El Rojo]

You cannot have a gun with a detachable magazine. It has nothing to do with the mag release button being missing. If the magazine can be removed from the gun, it is a detachable magazine. Also it says right in your post above, "nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool" (I guess it helps to read the whole thing eh?). If it requires a tool, it is a detachable magazine.

The FAB-10 has no open magazine well. It is permantly seal over by design and the internal box magazine is riveted to the firearm.

2nd, the AR-15 was banned by name by the attorney general (explain the checks and balances of that one). You can't even have an AR-15 with a welded magazine because it is still an AR-15.

 

[artherd]

Ugh, I am having a total brain fart. Is 'nor' in this use is doubly exclusive, an Xand operation?

Does it mean that BOTH tools AND disassembly of the firearm must be required to drop a mag for it to be considered non-detachable?

If that is the case, then how is this gun legal?

http://www.webshooters.org/diy_california_fal.htm

This is a FAL that has been modified to require an allen wrench to loosten a screw that then allows one to actuate the mag-catch by hand.

2nd, the AR-15 was banned by name by the attorney general (explain the checks and balances of that one). You can't even have an AR-15 with a welded magazine because it is still an AR-15.

It's kept very quiet, but the AG was required to publish a list (actually, 2 lists now.) of stamped lowers that were explicedly banned.

The so called "category1" (roberti-roots) and "category2" assault weapons that constitute the "AR and AK series" are explicidely defined and idenfitied.


It is not legally possible, given SB23's verbage, to ban anything that "looks like" an Armalite AR-15. Despite the misleading 'minor variations thereof' text of the Category 1 series ban.


And since Armalite sold the AR-15 name in the early 1960s, very few true "ARMALITE AR-15"s exist.

Armalite of today makes an M-15 rifle to get around it's own decision to sell the name.

 

[artherd]

Bump. Anyone have any thoughts?

I realize CA firearms laws are so convoluded, that often the employees of the DOJ itself are not able to decipher them...