FACTORING CRITERIA FOR RIFLED BARREL WEAPONS WITH ACCESSORIES* commonly referred to as “STABILIZING

[SquidBubble]

Sounds like these parents wanted for their kids a smaller, lighter SBR-sized package without the tax stamp and other associated nonsense, and that's the only reason 99% of owners even bought a large-format braced pistol in the first place. What you describe is far more common than you might realize.

I see this from a totally different angle than most folks. I had an AR pistol, it was fun but really not my thing. A lot of the folks I know with braces are parents and those braces are on guns built specifically to allow for a much more manageable firearm for kids to use. That’s the main purpose of the one I have for my contender. Are they making an end run to make firearms more adult-centric knowing that people introduced to guns as a teenager or adult will probably care less about them as an adult and therefore allow the long term game to play out where bans and confiscations are more readily accepted.

 

[SilentStalker]

This is nothing more than the prelude to broader bans and confiscations. It's the Sudetenland before the rest of Czechoslovakia.

Yeah basically. Frankly, I’m amazed at the number of people that are just going to fold over this. This is likely just a precursor. Where does it end? What next? Don’t worry, they will eventually get to your reg ARs, then your bolt guns, then your shotguns and so on. Don’t be naive. If it was legal at one time then it should remain legal, period. You cannot have a law anyone takes seriously if it’s continued to change with the winds. That’s crazy. Seems pot was illegal once, now it’s legal in some places and what was once legal on Guns is now going to be illegal? What a messed up world this has become. Get out there and fight this because this is only the beginning. This has zero to do with safety.

I was within the bounds of the law when I bought a braced pistol, and now suddenly I could be a felon overnight? I submitted a comment and it's a bit wordy, but I think I made my point crystal clear. I also wrote my senators and representatives but they're all left-wing extremists, so I'm confident that my words fell on deaf ears.

Can you post up your comment? It might help others to formulate a response of their own.

 

[SquidBubble]

Can you post up your comment? It might help others to formulate a response of their own.

I hope I don't regret this, but what I wrote is as follows. Eloquent, it is not.

As usual, your proposed rule is a convoluted and confusing mess. We’ve been over this before back in December and yet here we are again, at the behest of a president who according to what he’s said in the past, doesn’t know an AR-15 from a scary black cordless drill. I’ve been going over it, and boy is it a hot mess. For instance, just a random example here, your mention of flip-up sights. One point is awarded for “Present of Rifle-type Back-up / Flip-up Sights / Or no sights” EXCUSE ME??? If I have flip-up sights it’s one point but if I have no sights at all, it’s also one point? I could go on and on, but someone has to endure reading this tirade so I’ll end it there.

If you’re going to give yourself the right to bypass the whole points system and declare anything you want as an SBR, then what on God’s green Earth is the point of even having a points system in the first place? You stack the entire deck of cards in your favor and literally defeat the whole purpose, not that we should ever be subject to a points system at all. Anyone with the slightest hint of common sense can see that you’re just wanting to regulate and restrict literally every last AR pistol in America.

I’m trying to think of another civil right that is judged on a points system (and yes, the second amendment is absolutely a civil right) and I can’t come up with any example throughout our nation’s history. What if other agencies got on board with this idea and our other rights were judged on points accumulated? If I say a naughty word across multiple states, does the DoJ penalize me with one point? If I refuse to acknowledge someone’s gender identity, is that two points? If I criticize the government, is that 10 points and I go to prison?

If this rule is implemented, we will be one step closer to China with its social credit system.

So now I’m possibly facing the mandatory option to submit a photograph, fingerprints, background investigation, all for that $200 permission slip to keep my own personal property. Well then, thank you so much for letting me keep what’s already rightfully mine. If braces are such a thorn in your side then too bad, so sad. You approved them years ago, so you don’t get to do a complete 180 on your stance just because our president carries out the bidding of Moms Demand Action and other armies of astroturf Karens.

 

[DoubleMag]

Yeah basically. Frankly, I’m amazed at the number of people that are just going to fold over this. This is likely just a precursor. Where does it end? What next? Don’t worry, they will eventually get to your reg ARs, then your bolt guns, then your shotguns and so on. Don’t be naive. If it was legal at one time then it should remain legal, period. You cannot have a law anyone takes seriously if it’s continued to change with the winds. That’s crazy. Seems pot was illegal once, now it’s legal in some places and what was once legal on Guns is now going to be illegal? What a messed up world this has become. Get out there and fight this because this is only the beginning. This has zero to do with safety.

I got the 1st like

SPOT ON 2000% Brother

 

[DoubleMag]

From #103...

''I’m trying to think of another civil right that is judged on a points system (and yes, the second amendment is absolutely a civil right) and I can’t come up with any example throughout our nation’s history. What if other agencies got on board with this idea and our other rights were judged on points accumulated? If I say a naughty word across multiple states, does the DoJ penalize me with one point? If I refuse to acknowledge someone’s gender identity, is that two points? If I criticize the government, is that 10 points and I go to prison?''

GOOD COMMENT! Yes, a points systems for alcohol perhaps? beer is 2, whiskey is 4, but wine is 1? What about food, steak dinners is 4 but green grass food[ ] is 1?

OOOPS....let's all think carbon credits perhaps?

 

[SilentStalker]

I hope I don't regret this, but what I wrote is as follows. Eloquent, it is not.

Thanks for sharing. It’s good and I agree with all points. However, I think it’s a bit too political and likely will get thrown out on that alone. We need a good reasoned argument with stats that back up our claims. Again I hear you and agree 100%, I just know that a comment like this is not likely to be heard. Hell, they may not hear any of them at all, but I got to try and then when it all comes unglued I know I did everything I could to stay on the right side.

From #103...

''I’m trying to think of another civil right that is judged on a points system (and yes, the second amendment is absolutely a civil right) and I can’t come up with any example throughout our nation’s history. What if other agencies got on board with this idea and our other rights were judged on points accumulated? If I say a naughty word across multiple states, does the DoJ penalize me with one point? If I refuse to acknowledge someone’s gender identity, is that two points? If I criticize the government, is that 10 points and I go to prison?''

GOOD COMMENT! Yes, a points systems for alcohol perhaps? beer is 2, whiskey is 4, but wine is 1? What about food, steak dinners is 4 but green grass food[ ] is 1?

OOOPS....let's all think carbon credits perhaps?

I agree! This line of thinking is dangerous and needs to be stopped in its tracks!

 

[SquidBubble]

Thanks for sharing. It’s good and I agree with all points. However, I think it’s a bit too political and likely will get thrown out on that alone. We need a good reasoned argument with stats that back up our claims. Again I hear you and agree 100%, I just know that a comment like this is not likely to be heard. Hell, they may not hear any of them at all, but I got to try and then when it all comes unglued I know I did everything I could to stay on the right side.

You're right, it was too political. I was slightly inebriated and extremely frustrated and I just let my mind wander. My comment on frames & receivers also mentioned Biden in a negative manner but it wasn't outright insulting which is part of why I guess it was published, but this time, I got a little too bold. It's just aggravating that gun owners are the only group in America that get punished for crimes they didn't commit.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

So, are there any statistics on how many of these weapons are used in mass shootings or criminal activity in general? That might be a useful piece of information for any law that potentially restricts a Constitutional right.

Not sure of the exact numbers, but more people in the US have diedfrom the covid vaccine this year, than all Americans killed by all types of AR15 combined since the AR became available to the civilian market.

 

[SilentStalker]

You're right, it was too political. I was slightly inebriated and extremely frustrated and I just let my mind wander. My comment on frames & receivers also mentioned Biden in a negative manner but it wasn't outright insulting which is part of why I guess it was published, but this time, I got a little too bold. It's just aggravating that gun owners are the only group in America that get punished for crimes they didn't commit.

You are absolutely right! And I get pretty pissed about it myself. My letter would probably be much worse lol! That’s why I was looking for more examples, drunk or not, examples always help!

Not sure of the exact numbers, but more people in the US have diedfrom the covid vaccine this year, than all Americans killed by all types of AR15 combined since the AR became available to the civilian market.

See if you can find actual info on that. This would be a good stat to use!

 

[F-111 John]

Here is my draft comment, not yet submitted:

This commenter will focus on the proposed ATF Worksheet 4999, “FACTORING CRITERIA FOR RIFLED BARREL WEAPONS WITH ACCESSORIES commonly referred to as ‘STABILIZING BRACES’”

It is obvious that this worksheet is intended to mimic the worksheet used by the ATF titled FACTORING CRITERIA FOR WEAPONS, ATF Form 4590, which assesses a handgun submitted to the ATF for potential importation into the United States by examining the firearm and awarding “points” for certain features, or lack of features. Only if the proposed handgun meets or exceeds a stated “qualifying score” is the handgun then considered eligible for importation.

This proposed Form 4999 is not being used to determine if any given handgun with stabilizing brace that is submitted to the ATF for evaluation would be legal for sale, it is being used to determine if an EXISTING FIREARM OWNED BY AN INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN IS AN NFA FIREARM.

That is a completely different purpose for this form than the prototype ATF Form 4590, and one that may not be legal under the ruling by the 6th Circuit Court in the case of Gun Owners of America v. Garland, which struck down the ATF’s ability to fabricate out of whole cloth new law under the guise of expanded regulations promulgated under the so-called “Chevron Deference” that would place individual owners of firearms in legal jeopardy, without explicit Congressional action directing the ATF to do so.

For that reason, this commenter OBJECTS TO THE ENTIRE PROPOSED RULE FOR FACTORING CRITERIA FOR FIREARMS WITH ATTACHED “STABILIZING BRACES”​

 

[gopguy]

This is arbitrary kangaroo court rubbish. They approved these eight years ago, now on a whim they have changed their minds. We need to scream at Congress to put their thumbs down on these wannabe tyrants. Heck SB is only one of 11 makers and they have sold ten million of these braces... they will make millions felons over night. There is one law enforcement agency that is in dire need of defunding... the BATFE needs to be purged, this rogue agency needs to go.

 

[GEM]

wannabe tyrants

- the precedent was set for such regulatory bans with bump stocks before Biden came along. Let's get our rants straight and lets stay on the action as compared to politics.

 

[dogtown tom]

Not sure of the exact numbers, but more people in the US have diedfrom the covid vaccine this year, than all Americans killed by all types of AR15 combined since the AR became available to the civilian market.

More people die of bee stings than snakebites. EVERY YEAR!!!OMG!!!!
Neither that or the # of vaccine deaths has anything to do with anything related to firearms.

See if you can find actual info on that. This would be a good stat to use!

You have to be kidding.
A far better stat is the number of Albino Albanians that aspirated apples in Aspen.

 

[GEM]

We are so wandering. The number is not that relevant to the statement about guns. The braces are low hanging fruit for an administration that wants to be seen doing something about guns.

There are the work arounds of existing laws and regs. The bump stocks were one for full auto. Thus a tyrant took them out. The braces are for SBRs and a tyrant is after them (excuse my sarcasm). I might expect the Shockwaves if also seen as ambiguous short barreled shotguns.

We always say, let me keep my lethal weapon because more people die from drinking bleach. Those arguments don't work for the most part.

The solution again is legislative or judicial action to get rid of infringements that make no sense.

 

[SilentStalker]

I hope everyone is getting everyone else they know to write their comments expressing their disagreements towards this!

 

[P Flados]

Update to post 96 above:

I went out & shot the 10.5" 300 BO that required a 10.75" length of pull to stay under 26" overall. I am not keeping that configuration.

I pulled the 10 .5" and installed my 7.5" 300 BO barrel. I can get a 12.375" length of pull with current parts. If feels a lot better. I will need to try it out & see what I think.

If I wanted to buy a "standard non-adjustable pistol buffer tube", I could get to around 12.75" for length of pull, have just under 26" for overall and stay at 3 points for Section III of proposed form 4999.

 

[DoubleMag]

Update to post 96 above:

I went out & shot the 10.5" 300 BO that required...

What is your overall weight as configured.

Lookie folks...If you play at the table the odds are with the house. Little alone with a meager measly four points system.
A GOOD Dealer can deal right off the bottom of the deck, and you'll be VERY hard pressed to see it. The four point system is dealing off of bottom of the deck, a stacked deck, and marked cards, all at once. IT"S DESIGNED TO = NO BRACED PISTOLS.

And that is at a MINIMUM, their stated intentions are much worse. This may be an AR15 pistol BAN / or preview of a BAN.


'What we meant is different then what you THOUGHT '

COMMENT
PERIOD
IS
OPEN

 

[P Flados]

For weight, a typical AR pistol is not going to have a problem. My 7.5" version was 91.3 oz, the 10.5" was 94.3. ATF min is 64 oz, max is 120 oz.

It is important to note that the AFT does not appear to be "banning braces" and I see no indication that they are not going after the entire AR/AK category of pistols that are primarily used as two handed guns. They are going after gun configurations that have a brace (for one handed use) but are not consistent with use as a braced one handed gun.

This makes it easier for them to get around the impact of the ruling. The impact is that they are making many guns that were sold as "ATF approved" into unregistered NFA items (with the potential to result in a felony if retained as is).

The biggest fault I see with the ATF, is in approving any braced gun that could not be used for "braced one handed use" and then turning around and making having one a felony.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Here is my draft comment, not yet submitted:

This commenter will focus on the proposed ATF Worksheet 4999, “FACTORING CRITERIA FOR RIFLED BARREL WEAPONS WITH ACCESSORIES commonly referred to as ‘STABILIZING BRACES’”

It is obvious that this worksheet is intended to mimic the worksheet used by the ATF titled FACTORING CRITERIA FOR WEAPONS, ATF Form 4590, which assesses a handgun submitted to the ATF for potential importation into the United States by examining the firearm and awarding “points” for certain features, or lack of features. Only if the proposed handgun meets or exceeds a stated “qualifying score” is the handgun then considered eligible for importation.

This proposed Form 4999 is not being used to determine if any given handgun with stabilizing brace that is submitted to the ATF for evaluation would be legal for sale, it is being used to determine if an EXISTING FIREARM OWNED BY AN INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN IS AN NFA FIREARM.

That is a completely different purpose for this form than the prototype ATF Form 4590, and one that may not be legal under the ruling by the 6th Circuit Court in the case of Gun Owners of America v. Garland, which struck down the ATF’s ability to fabricate out of whole cloth new law under the guise of expanded regulations promulgated under the so-called “Chevron Deference” that would place individual owners of firearms in legal jeopardy, without explicit Congressional action directing the ATF to do so.

For that reason, this commenter OBJECTS TO THE ENTIRE PROPOSED RULE FOR FACTORING CRITERIA FOR FIREARMS WITH ATTACHED “STABILIZING BRACES”​

Excellent IMO. Also this is the first time I've seen this point raised.

 

[lsudave]

Update to post 96 above:

I went out & shot the 10.5" 300 BO that required a 10.75" length of pull to stay under 26" overall. I am not keeping that configuration.

I pulled the 10 .5" and installed my 7.5" 300 BO barrel. I can get a 12.375" length of pull with current parts. If feels a lot better. I will need to try it out & see what I think.

If I wanted to buy a "standard non-adjustable pistol buffer tube", I could get to around 12.75" for length of pull, have just under 26" for overall and stay at 3 points for Section III of proposed form 4999.

I'm a new entrant into the AR category. I am sticking to 2 calibers for now, .223 and 7.62x39. 223/556 in large part because that's THE caliber for an AR (like 45acp is THE 1911 caliber), and x39 because of price, and I also have other rifles in that caliber.

I know 300BO is very popular, but the price is too prohibitive for me right now.

I picked up a 10.5" 223 upper, concerned mostly about recoil and blast... going shorter seems like it would be too much blast to deal with. Going to a x39, it seems to kick more in my carbine, wonder how awkward it would be at pistol length.

Can you show a picture of the 10.5" in the required configuration?

 

[SquidBubble]

My comment was actually published. I guess someone at the ATF has a sense of humor.

 

[P Flados]

Isudave,

I have not figured out how to post photos here.

Note that a lot of the following is just my opinion. However, I have seen similar opinions from many who have experience in the guns being discussed:

With a 10.5" barrel and a brace, you are going to end up the brace adjusted "stupid short". For an adult, your nose will be right at the charging handle with the brace against your shoulder. With an AR-15 and a 10.5", you are probably better off with just a foam sleeve on a buffer tube.

I personally would not accept a 7.5" barrel in 223/5.56 if you wanted to give me one. The 223/5.56 is effective only because of high velocities. In a 7.5" gun, you do not get what I consider needed velocity for effectiveness, but you do get muzzle blast that can probably result in permanent hearing loss from one "defensive use" situation. A 7.5" with a can using extra heavy bullet subsonic ammo might be worth having. I am not doing the NFA thing for the can, so again I have no use for this caliber at this length.

The 300 BO, 7.62 x 39, 350 legend and 450 BM are all much better at retaining effectiveness in a 7.5" barrel. For the ones you mentioned, blast may or may not be bad in the BO depending on ammo, blast will be bad with most any factory 7.62 x 39 ammo. With handloads, any 7.5" gun 30 cal or bigger is more likely to achieve a reasonable blast with adequate effectiveness.

 

[old lady new shooter]

How to post photos here:

IF YOU USE THR ON YOUR COMPUTER:
1. Take a photo and upload it to your computer.
2. At the bottom of the thread where you want to post the photo, click the "Upload a File" button below the posting box.
3. A window will open where you can select the photo you want to post. Just navigate to the relevant directory and find and select the photo.
3. Position your cursor in the posting box.
4. After your photo uploads, you will have a choice of thumbnail or full size. I always choose full size.
5. The photo will appear in the posting box.
6. If you wish to add text, do it now if you want it below the photo. For above the photo it's easier to put the text first, then do steps 2-5.
7. Click "Post Reply".

IF YOU USE THR ON YOUR PHONE:
Assuming you also take your photos with your phone you don't need the step of transferring the photo from the photography device to the browsing device. Otherwise everything is the same, except different phones have different ways of selecting photos.

Hope that helps (and that I didn't forget anything!).

 

[armoredman]

It's not just ARs, there are AK pistols and my personal favorite, my BREN 2 MS pistol with 11 inch tube. In my line of work I cannot afford to suddenly "become a felon" by default, so I will need to find a barrel extension/muzzle device that is long enough to get to the required length and have it permanently attached, get the 922(r) kit, (if available), and once THAT is all completed, attach the shoulder stock to the now legal rifle. Or do I end up just having to hand in a $2000 firearm for destruction? Not being an AR, "swapping uppers" ain't gonna fly. I suppose I could do what I did with my Scorpion back before braces were a thing for me, and use a single point sling as the third point of contact.

 

[DMW1116]

Im still not sure if a higher score or lower score is better or worse.