Failure to chamber

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hdwhit

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I have loaded .223 Remington for decades. All of it has gone into either my or my father's Ruger Mini-14. I use a full-length, but not small base, set of RCBS dies. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of rounds loaded with these dies have gone through those two Mini-14s and have never failed to chamber or function flawlessly.

This past week, I took 60 rounds to my family farm to sight in a new Savage Axis bolt action rifle. Three of these rounds would not allow the bolt to close.

  • .223 Remington sized on RCBS full length dies.
  • Brass had mixed headstamps; mostly LC83
  • Loaded with 19.5 grains IMR-4198 with 50 grain Hornady soft point bullet.
  • The rounds were loaded before I had bought the Savage, but had been functioned through my Mini-14 with no failure to chamber.
  • Visual inspection of the fired brass from those cases that did chamber did not look unusual.
  • Visual inspection of the cases that would not chamber did not look any different from those that did.

I'm not where I can upload photographs right now, but will so do shortly.

I know that when loading for semi-automatic rifles, it is recommended that small base dies be used to ensure the case will fit in the chamber, but regular dies have already been sufficient in the past and I didn't expect to run into this sort of problem with a bolt action.

Any suggestions about what might have happened? Are the Savage chambers tighter than the Mini-14? Or is there something I need to look at in terms of the way my dies are set up? Thanks.
 
3 things. Shoulder not pushed back far enough on fl sizing. OAL to long. Bulge at shoulder from over crimping. The load is light, so not a pressure problem.
 
had been functioned through my Mini-14 ....
Click to expand...
All else being done correctly.

That is...:
- FULL-length resize w/ cam-over and
- Bullet seating with NO crimp...

Then small-base size them once to accommodate the less 'spacious'
chamber in the bolt gun as compared to the Mini-14
 
Bulge at shoulder from over crimping.

^^^^I have seen that problem before^^^^^

Ever since I do not crimp any of my .223 and have fired with no issue in a 1982 era Mini-14.
 
4. LC Nato fired brass may be larger in diameter near the extractor cut, where fl dies dont size. Since its only 3 pcs of brass, scrap them.
 
My Mini 14 has a huge chamber. I would assume the Savage chamber is tighter.

3 things. Shoulder not pushed back far enough on fl sizing. OAL to long. Bulge at shoulder from over crimping.
Click to expand...
Yep. Another possibility is a case head that has expanded too much from over pressure, before you ever had it.
 
The bullets did not have a cannellure so following the Hornady manual, 4th Edition, the seating die was (and since 1979 has always been) configured to not crimp.

I will double-check the case heads. I routinely measure the outside diameter of every case near the web with a micrometer and discard everything that exceeds SAAMI maximum before sizing it.

If the Ruger's chamber is a little "looser" than the Savage, then it could be that the shoulder is being pushed back enough for the Mini-14, but not for the Savage. If the case diameter (above) doesn't explain it, I'll have to invest in a new sizing die since I'm not going to mess with the adjustment of my current sizing die that is producing ammunition that my (and my father's) Mini-14s will happily digest all day long.

Thanks for the help.
 
Measuring , comparing the head to datum length can give some strange measurements. My Savage firing pin strike can set the shoulder back .006" Your low pressure load may not expand the brass fully to the chamber. Plus , as the case body expands outward, pulling the shoulder back on firing, will give a shorter than normal head to datum measurement. When you fl size, the die may not contact the case shoulder at all on some brass. The ones that do, may not chamber, if the die is not in full contact with the shell holder.
 
Any suggestions about what might have happened? Are the Savage chambers tighter than the Mini-14? Or is there something I need to look at in terms of the way my dies are set up? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't own a Mini-14 but given that it is not a target weapon, not sold as a target weapon, the people who own them are more into rocking and rolling, and therefore want a rifle that goes bang with any ammunition, I would say, it makes perfect sense that the chambers are probably huge!

What you have found is that brass fired in one rifle does not necessarily chamber after full length resizing in another. Regular sizing dies do not reduce the cases as much as a small base die. However, given a large enough chamber, even small base dies are unable to reduce ballooned cases down to fit into a minimum chamber. I have been told that commercial reloaders have industrial equipment that will reduce any case to factory dimensions. I looked at UTube videos and it is apparent that even low priced industrial equipment is much heavier, probably hydraulic, and so, these guys have a capability to size cases that a guy with a light duty press cannot copy.
 
It's not a shoulder issue. It's a case body-near-the-head issue
due to the auto-chamber being more forgiving in that region.

Small-Base size them (once -- unless you shoot them in the
Mini-14 again) and move on w/ having fun. :D :D
 
It's not a shoulder issue. It's a case body-near-the-head issue
due to the auto-chamber being more forgiving in that region.
Click to expand...

I went back and put a micrometer on the fired brass across the web near the case head and it was indeed 0.374 in diameter (+ as much as 0.0002). The SAAMI maximum is 0.3760 and a sample of loaded cases sized in my full-length dies come out between 0.3745 to 0.3750 in diameter.

Thanks, MEHavey.

Looks like I need a small-base sizer die for my bolt gun while the auto-loaders (which supposedly are the reason for small base dies in the first place - see explanations in the Hornady Manual, 4th Edition, page 42 or the Speer Manual, 11th Edition, page 41) haven't required them.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Each comment gave me something to think about and a reason to review my reloading procedures.
 
Instead of trying to measure the unmeasuable in all the wrong places??

How about you just smoke a round with candle soot, or completely 'color' it with a dry erase marker.

Then try to chamber it.

Where the black rubs off down to shiny brass is your actual problem area.

I seriously doubt you need a SB sizing die.

I rather suspect you need to adjust your sizing die so you are actually pushing the shoulder back where it came from.

rc
 
How about you just smoke a round with candle soot, or completely 'color' it with a dry erase marker.

Then try to chamber it.

Where the black rubs off down to shiny brass is your actual problem area.
Click to expand...

I did. That's what was the initial source of consternation. I actually colored four loaded rounds with a blue sharpie and chambered them one after another. These were rounds that had gone into my Mini-14 and suffered no significant loss of "color". They likewise went into the Savage and suffered no significant loss of "color".
 
What's your OAL? And the length to the lands in your chamber? If it isn't touching the brass it must be the front end. Could the bullets be moving out (since they're not crimped) after you seat them?
 
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If the brass is soft I have occasionally squashed a shoulder inserting flat based bullets. I assume you have the expander ball in the resizer. I'm also pretty sure the Savage chamber is much tighter than the Mini 14 chamber. Any flaws in the brass will become evident much sooner in the Savage chamber.

kwg
 
mstreddy wrote:

OP, another poster here had some issues with what appears to be a short chamber on his Savage.
Click to expand...

Yes, I saw that when I logged in this morning. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
berettaprofessor wrote (reformatted):

What's your OAL?

And the length to the lands in your chamber?

If it isn't touching the brass it must be the front end.

Could the bullets be moving out (since they're not crimped) after you seat them?
Click to expand...

COL = 2.200 (SAAMI maximum is 2.260)

Length to lands in the chamber is unknown, but using the so-called "Sharpie test" (i.e. color bullet with a marker, chamber it and see where the ink gets rubbed off) shows the bullet is not contacting the lands and the shoulder of the case is not contacting the shoulder of the chamber.

Chambered rounds have the same COL before and after being chambered so I don't think they're running into something in chamber and being pushed back into the case.

Bullets that were in the magazine when the rifle was fired show the same COL as rounds from the same batch that were not put into a magazine or chambered.

I think these questions do not take into account the post reporting that fired brass has a diameter near the case head of 0.374 (+ up to 0.0002) while unfired rounds from the same batch (as well as earlier batches produced with the same dies going back to November 1980) have consistently had a diameter between 0.3745 to 0.3750.

Since the "Sharpie test" suggests the bullet is not touching the lands and the shoulder of the case is not touching the shoulder of the chamber and the measurements of the case head show the cases are larger than the chamber they are being forced into, I think I'm going to concentrate on that area first.
 
Update:

I loaded 35 rounds of LC69 and LC74 brass that had been resized in my RCBS standard dies with 19.5 grains of IMR-4198 under a 50 grain Hornady soft point bullet. Chronograph data was not available because the muzzle blast from a different rifle caused my nearly 30-year-old skyscreens to "evaporate". The cases would, as before, readily chamber if the bolt was pushed forward in a single, forceful, smooth motion. If the bolt was moved forward slowly, the case would not want to let the bolt close.

The brass was collected after firing. The four LC69 cases were discarded. This was largely because I didn't want to continue to use brass that was in the Army's service at the same time my father was in Vietnam. I bought back the LC74 brass for processing and a final loading.

After cleaning, I lubricated the necks with Lee's resizing lubricant. I separately lubricate the body (but not the neck) of the case using Hornady Unique applied from a make-up applicator. There's a separate post describing why I have been doing this. Unfortunately, I got distracted and failed to lubricate the body of the cases.

None of the cases got stuck.

Yes, Thirty-one (31) .223 cases fired from my Savage Axis could, with only the neck lubricated, go straight into an RCBS standard resizing die without lubricant! I think that's the very definition of a "tight" chamber.
 
After resizing your brass do you check it on a Wilson case gage----if not it might be a good idea to get one at least
for the Savage
 
G Kids both have Weatherby 243 - chambers aren't the same. Set your die to HS properly, then trim when needed.
 
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