Fallacy: Prepping Trigger on Draw??

[BerettaNut92]

Something I been thinking about, when I draw on a DA pistol, as I am bringing the gun to eye level, I am prepping the trigger and ever so smoothly pulling the trigger. When I get my sight picture I send off a round and watch the steel plate die. A couple concerns of using this as a defensive tactic, curious about your thoughts.

I learned this for competition, but prepping the trigger, wouldn't this be a fallacy for defensive use as it is assuming you intend to shoot when you draw? There may be an occassion where I draw but don't intend to shoot--yet or not yet, but I noticed it's becoming part of my muscle memory now.

On the other hand, if I had the gun up, and did finally intend to shoot, the DA would add an eighth of a second or whatever to the trigger pull that could theoretically determine the outcome of the shooting.

Your thoughts?

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I do not begin prepping the trigger until I begin moving the weapon out of my ready position. I subscribe to the theory that your weapon should be in one of three places:the holster, the ready position or on target. If a threat does something to cause me to move from my ready position to on target, he will be engaged. That is where I have drawn the line.

I practice by dryfiring from the ready, drawing to the ready while ensuring my finger remains off the trigger, and then putting the two previous steps together to practice my draw stroke. I have noticed no appreciable difference in speed when I have attempted to get on the trigger sooner.

Hope this helps. Again, its what works for me.

 

[Edward429451]

I did this a few times with my Glock at first. I stopped it. If you burn it into muscle memory, it'll be an accidental shooting waiting to happen. Even with a DA/SA. In a potential SD scenario adreniline is high and you tighten up unconciously and bang. OMG, he only had a cell phone.

Rule #3 saves lives too.

Even if I was into competition I wouldn't do it, even if it meant never having a chance at first place. Muscle memory of a first place competitor could translate into last place in real life. The adreneline rush is real and high in a SD situation.

Just my .02

 

[Glamdring]

IMO You don't touch the trigger till your ready to SHOOT what the muzzle is covering.

In the real world of self defense, your more likely to get in trouble for shooting too fast than shooting to slow (if you remember that cover is what keeps you alive not lightning draws).

 

[sanchezero]

I'm not a huge trigger prep guy since I tend to shoot SA guns but I have a coupla thoughts on the issue.

You shouldn't pull your gun until you fear for your life. If you fear for your life then you have ID'ed a threat. I think that during the second or so it takes to actually draw and get on target you have time to make a final shoot-don't shoot decision.

There are gonna be rare occasions where you feel threatened enough to have gun in hand, but are unable to pinpoint a specific threat (bump in the night, etc). By keeping your finger outta the trigger guard until the threat is positively ID'ed you should be fine.

The reason for prepping that huge DA trigger is to benefit accuracy. Having to crank that 8-12lb trigger off superfast leads to alotta misses. If you're worried about the ND then do alot of shoot-no shoot training or think about trusting yourself with a single-action pistol.

(if you remember that cover is what keeps you alive not lightning draws)

I would bet that the majority of SD shootings (both civilian and LE) take place without cover ever becoming an issue. They tend to be in your face where someone has threatened you with violence and your immediate or well timed response makes the difference.

It is my opinion that since, as the defender we're playing catch-up, speed and accuracy are equally important to help keep us alive.

 

[OF]

That's the way the SEALs do it - but I don't think it's a good habit for a civilian to get into. You should have your finger off that trigger until the shooting starts.

Prepping the trigger and then backing off in an actual threat situation is asking for trouble. The amount of training and experience in gunhandling under extreme stress it would take to be able to do that without problems is not something even the most dedicated civilian is going to be able to afford.

Nobody with a job at least.

- Gabe

 

[Steve in PA]

NO!!! I do not like anyone prepping the trigger. I'm a LEO Firearms Instructor and attend many FI Courses as I can. A few years ago I attended one, where Andy Stanford (posts on GT alot) taught his Speed Shooting Course. It was a good course, as I learned a couple of things. However I disagreed with him on prepping the trigger. It works fine for target shooting, speed shooting.....etc........but in my opinion it has no place in Law Enforcement or CCW use.

I do not want my shooters putting any pressure (prepping) on the the trigger unless they have made a mental decission to pull that trigger!!! Its and accident or a law suit waiting to happen.

Incidently.......I also met Ernest Langdon at the same event.

 

[sanchezero]

I do not want my shooters putting any pressure (prepping) on the the trigger unless they have made a mental decission to pull that trigger!!!

Steve, I think thats what is being talked about here...

when I draw on a DA pistol, as I am bringing the gun to eye level, I am prepping the trigger and ever so smoothly pulling the trigger. When I get my sight picture I send off a round and watch the steel plate die

The question as I interpreted it was "Should I prep the trigger during the drawstroke (after the gun is pointed toward the target) or should I wait until I have a hard sight picture before reaching inside the triggerguard?"

I see prepping as valid for the person who'll only draw the gun when it needs to be shot. Probably, for LEO who do 'alot' of covering at gunpoint it might be a bad idea but I think that even there this is a training issue.

The prepping of the trigger should be part of the decision to shoot and ONLY the decision to shoot. It shouldn't have any bearing on the decision to pull the gun for 'intimidation'.

I'm no LEO tho and haven't needed to draw my gun on anyone to have the comply with my verbal commands.

 

[Glamdring]

Prepping the trigger means putting pressure on the trigger BEFORE your ready to shoot, correct?

We know that under stress fine motor control goes. Your strength goes up (will take less effort to do normal lifting for instance). So real easy when things drop that your prepping the trigger becomes pulling the trigger.

So think about bumping into a goblin. He has a weapon in hand. You know your going to shoot him. Is he lined up right in front of you (ie will muzzle of gun be pointed anywhere you don't want a shot to go during the draw stroke)?

Might there be no shoot targets in the path of the gun muzzle? Say someone already attacked by goblin that is now on the ground between you?

***
sanchezero

I would bet that the majority of SD shootings (both civilian and LE) take place without cover ever becoming an issue. They tend to be in your face where someone has threatened you with violence and your immediate or well timed response makes the difference.

It is my opinion that since, as the defender we're playing catch-up, speed and accuracy are equally important to help keep us alive.

My point is that since your behind the ball, only thing that can keep you alive is cover.

Being faster on draw doesn't stop goblin from shooting you after you have hit them does it?

Studies on officer survival are constant in finding cover being a key to officer survival. Your correct that many shootings happen without using it. But I believe that is because almost nobody outside military practices shooting combined seriously with finding and using cover. Not because it wasn't an option.

When you see something that moves you up from condition orange, do you start moving towards cover?

 

[444]

Just got back from Gunsite tonight

Rule #2 Never let the muzzle cover (or point at) anything you are not willing to destroy.
Rule #3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

Simple: If you don't intend to shoot the target, you should not be pointing a gun at it. If you are only bringing the gun up to the "ready" then your finger should not be on the trigger.

 

[MolonLabe416]

Bad competition habit.
Gross violation of Rule 3.

The 4 Rules of Firearms Safety

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.
4. Know your target and what is beyond.

 

[sanchezero]

My point is that since your behind the ball, only thing that can keep you alive is cover.

My point was that for most reactive gunfight scenarios, muggings and the like, there isn't time to search for cover. Certainly, if you spot the threat in time then you can act tactically to gain an advantage or at least attempt to neutralize theirs, but that often isn't the case.

I'm all for immediate tactical movement once TSHTF, but I know I'm not taking my eyes of the perceived threat so assuming I've been suprised and need to shoot for my life thats what I'll be doing. If somehow I manage to find cover or have a safe moment to seek it out, great, but I think it's important to train for the worst case of being bamboozled by the thing you never saw coming.

Might there be no shoot targets in the path of the gun muzzle? Say someone already attacked by goblin that is now on the ground between you?

This is the strongest argument against prepping the trigger I can think of. However, I don't think it's a killer simply because when you run into some gunwielding junkie kneedeep in dead bodies p too many movies lol) you'll still be effected by tunnel vision and probably won't notice all the gore till later.

The sights can be on target without your eyes verifying their alignment. In an up close fight, if you have any sort of index, then you're probably pretty close as soon as the gun gets horizontal and there are certainly situations where you'd shoot from this point.

Nobody wants to shoot innocent bystanders but in the majority of fights thats of secondary importance to saving your own hide. With what everyone tells us about tunnel vision and the degradation of complex skills and decision making under life or death stress, I halfway don't even expect to see the bad guy .

Does anyone have any info about shooters IDing their backstop in a REACTIVE situation? My guess is it goes out the window, but I dunno...

 

[only1asterisk]

Put me down for not preping the trigger during the draw.
I'd rather be shot than chance shooting someone without intending to, but that's me.


David

 

[jarhead]

Being a fanatical diehard 1911 fan... I don't need to prep the trigger.

Having said that, prep the trigger all you want as you draw it from the holster... just don't put that finger in the trigger guard until you are covering the target and you have made the decision that pulling the trigger is the right call. So if you can prep it from outside the trigger guard... have at it...

 

[Cal4D4]

Try prepping on shot 2 of double taps. See how your hits go if you try to prep as sights get back on target. The pull on my G100 is inconsistent enough to cause a few "AD"s before I am happy with sight picture. Only stress involved was trying to speed up my shots.

 

[Glamdring]

Does anyone have any info about shooters IDing their backstop in a REACTIVE situation? My guess is it goes out the window, but I dunno...

According to Jim Cirillo members of the Fugitive Stakeout Squad did more than once. Supposedly some SWAT members have...though how could you really tell what thought process or whatever lead to their choice of action (squatting down to shoot at upward angle with handgun, and using HG as impact weapon instead of shooting because of innocents behind bad guy)?

IMHO I think if you train to, you might. But if you don't train to you won't.

***

My point was that for most reactive gunfight scenarios, muggings and the like, there isn't time to search for cover. Certainly, if you spot the threat in time then you can act tactically to gain an advantage or at least attempt to neutralize theirs, but that often isn't the case.

I'm all for immediate tactical movement once TSHTF, but I know I'm not taking my eyes of the perceived threat so assuming I've been suprised and need to shoot for my life thats what I'll be doing. If somehow I manage to find cover or have a safe moment to seek it out, great, but I think it's important to train for the worst case of being bamboozled by the thing you never saw coming.

Okay here is my philosophy

If problems start up close you don't have a gun problem. You have a empty hands or integrated tactics (hands first then knife, gun) problem.

Example. Drill. Two people face each other, close enough to touch if they reach out their hands. Hands held however they want as long as both people have hands in same position. One has paintball/simmunitions gun. The other empty hands.

On signal gun person trys to draw and shoot the other. The unarmed person beats the $%@! out of the gun person. Tueller drill at less than 21 feet

If you play a bit, force on force, you might be surprised how much cover or concealment you can find even at 10 or 12 feet. The trick is not to look for it AFTER something starts happening. But to train yourself to see it all the time. So that if your suprised you step towards cover/concealment just like you would step back from the street if you all of a sudden see a car that wasn't there when you went to take first step.

Or start thinking like wild critters. So you feel exposed when your out in the open away from cover and concealment.

 

[Sean Smith]

And people wonder why old-skool single action types look down on the DA system...get a trigger you don't need to prep. Problem solved.

 

[444]

Actually, in the competition senario, you are doing exactly the right thing, Skunk. After all, you KNOW you are going to shoot the target; so, as the sights come up on target you begin your trigger press. This would be no different than a self defense senario where you know you are going to have to shoot the target; you have identified the target as a threat and feel that lethal force is required to save your life, so you draw and as soon as your sights start coming up on target, you begin your trigger press.
The problem occurs when you bring up the idea that you draw but don't intend to shoot.
Shooting and self defense are thinking men's games. The mind is the weapon, the gun is only an extension of the will.

 

[sanchezero]

According to Jim Cirillo members of the Fugitive Stakeout Squad did more than once. Supposedly some SWAT members have

Well, these guys aren't reactive; they're expecting trouble, particularly the SWAT guys. They have specific targets and can often choose their fields of fire ahead of time.

I agree with the training. I try to do as much shoot-no shoot as possible and luckily my local club surrounds the badguys with innocents frequently.

On signal gun person trys to draw and shoot the other. The unarmed person beats the $%@! out of the gun person. Tueller drill at less than 21 feet

If the FOF work I have done, I've always been able to shoot my attacker multiple times in the Tueller drill before he gets within arms length.

I agree to some extent with the starting at arms length, but even there I'm comfortable. I have much more experience HTH than with a pistol; only recently have I felt like my shooting skills were catching up. So usually, in the HTH scenarios I knock my opponent down and then draw and shoot him.

The trick is not to look for it AFTER something starts happening.

Again, this is all well and good, until you get caught flatfooted, which is likely the only way you'll get caught. I have noticed in FOF that if we start in the open with me behind the curve and I start running for cover I often get shot, regardless of whether I'm returning fire. I fare a bit better when I don't concern my self with cover until after I've made sure to get some hits of my own. I just hop around like an epileptic Fred Astaire and try to remember that there is no spoon .

 

[Steve in PA]

"Prepping the trigger" means applying pressure to the trigger before you've actually committed yourself to pulling the trigger.

In prepping the trigger......you are holding your weapon on target....but have not made the decision to shoot.......hence, prepping the trigger.

The finger should be either completely off the trigger.......or on the trigger. If its on the trigger then its applying pressure so the weapon will fire. Not....well.....I'm pretty sure I'm going to fire....so I'll prep the trigger.....

A loud noise......someone hitting your arm......being startled......and.....ooops......gun go boom!!!

Too many liability issues there for me. If it works for you and its someting you want to do...go ahead, be my guest. As stated.......I do not teach or recommend it to anyone.

 

[Ed Brunner]

Not a good idea. Inherently dangerous with no real upside.

 

[sm]

Never

4 rules always.

As a wee child these rules taught. I've seen or have removed persons from range breaking any of these. I have and will remove myself from a hunting party if any of these rules broken. Competition--we have sometimes warned once, next time your gone.

 

[Erik]

I currently work for a large federal agency which mandates relatively long trigger pulls in the pistols they issue and teach trigger prepping.

From the holster:

Grip and draw.
Meet and greet.
Punch out. (Punch your hands straight out from your center line to an icosoles hold. TRIGGER PREP, timing the trigger to break as soon after achieving sight alignment as possible.)
Fire.

I asked why the apparent rule violation. The response was that there was no rule violation in that you are intending to shoot the entire time, from the moment you moved your hand toward the holster. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to shoot is the rule I learned, by the way. (After all, there are instances where your sights never come into play.)

OK, fine. I asked about those times when you were not actively involved in a gunfight/ lethal force confrontation.

Months and several conversations with a variety of firearm instructors later I have yet to hear a clear and convincing argument in favor of trigger prepping outside of a definite shoot situation.

 

[CWL]

No. All rules of responsible gun ownership apply.

There ARE those out there who argue that it is useful, but these are the same ones who claim that "the gun went off by itself!".