Farmer chases a thief, catches a felony charge

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repsychler

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This is from my home state of Minnesota...

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/973089.html

At age 74, Kenneth Englund has a long record as an Isanti County farmer, Township Board member, livestock hauler, church member, road maintenance guy and good neighbor.

And now, because he used a shotgun to hold a thief after he gave chase at 70 miles an hour, he is an accused felon, too.

While chasing a vehicle carrying the man, a woman and a 3-year-old child, Englund asked the Sheriff's Office via cell phone if he should "blow them away," according to a criminal complaint. However, his shotgun was found to be unloaded.

Englund is facing second-degree assault charges; the thief, who the sheriff said admitted stealing about $5 worth of gasoline from Englund's neighbor, was charged with misdemeanor theft.

The situation has touched nerves beyond Bradford Township, about 45 miles north of Minneapolis, where rising crime has brought unusually large numbers of people to town meetings.

More than 350 people attended a fundraising dinner for Englund last month and a petition has gone around supporting his case.

A prosecutor said communications to his office are running 70 to 80 percent in Englund's favor.

But Sheriff Mike Ammend said that people can't take the law into their own hands, and that Englund's actions were "an invitation to a shootout. There's so many things that could have gone wrong here."

The vehicle Englund chased also carried a woman and a 3-year-old child, the sheriff said, and "what happens if there was a crash?"

A long history of legal decisions runs against people who use force to protect property.

In a 1983 case that drew national attention, a jury ruled that a man in Holloway, Minn., should pay $77,000 to a burglar he chased down and shot in the foot. The case was settled for half that or less; the burglar got probation.

In 1999, a Red Wing man was sentenced to six months in jail after he booby-trapped his Wisconsin cabin and injured a burglar. According to media reports, the Iowa Supreme Court upheld $30,000 in damages against the owner of a booby-trapped abandoned farmhouse in 1978, and a California homeowner was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon when his spring gun shot a teenage burglar in 1974.

Prosecutor: Jail would be 'silly'

In Isanti County, Dan Conlin, chief deputy county attorney, said that no one is looking to put Englund in jail -- "that is silly," he said -- and that the charge "doesn't need to be resolved as a felony, obviously," but that the charge fits the facts.

Those facts, according to a criminal complaint:

Englund confronted Christian Harris Smith, 28, and the woman at the vacant farm next to Englund's place about 10 a.m. on Oct. 15, pointed a gun at them, then chased them.

Englund didn't see the theft in progress, but said the vehicle was the same one that was there a day earlier when a radiator disappeared from a truck. He pleaded not guilty, was released without bail and is scheduled to return to court Feb. 22.

Smith also was charged with another theft and was held in the county jail on a felony warrant from another state.

Concerns about rising crime

Richard Hansen, chairman of the Bradford Township Board, said that crime has risen so much that 40 to 60 people have shown up at board meetings, and that a committee has been formed to meet with the sheriff and county attorney. The township does not have a police force.

Barbara Ford, of Ham Lake, who owns the land where the theft took place, said there have been attempted break-ins on the property.

"I'll do anything I can to support Mr. Englund," she said.

Englund said criminals can be long gone by the time a deputy arrives from Cambridge, the county seat, about 14 miles away. The sheriff said that, with a rising call rate and 14 deputies to patrol 440 miles of roads, his department is understaffed.

"We want people's help, we need their help [calling with information], but we don't want people taking the law into their own hands," he said.

Hansen said Englund has been a Township Board member for 37 years and has overwhelming support in the community.

"Somebody's got to look out for the people," Hansen said, "and I guess that's what he's been doing for 40-odd years."
 
Englund asked the Sheriff's Office via cell phone if he should "blow them away,"

And that is why he's a felon. He should have just kept his mouth shut. That said, though, he's an old guy, cut him some slack.
 
Threatening to "blow away" a man, woman and child over $5 of gas sounds dangerously close to vigilante justice.
 
NoPhilly:

Threatening to "blow away" a man, woman and child over $5 of gas sounds dangerously close to vigilante justice.

I completely agree that human lives are worth more than $5 and that no one should be shot for stealing $5 worth of gasoline.

But you and Prince Yamato raise a different issue, I think, and it's central to the situation as reported. According to the report, "Englund asked the Sheriff's Office via cell phone if he should 'blow them away'." The language is extreme and, again I agree, was at least unwise or utterly stupid.

It was, however, a question and not a statement, and the man addressed that question to the proper person. Englund did not say what you have him saying. He did not say "I am going to 'blow them away'." He asked whether he should.

Change the language to something more articulate and less emotional: "Sheriff, I have witnessed a theft and I am in my vehicle behind the fleeing thief. There have been many such thefts from my neighbors recently. Am I justified in using potentially deadly force in this situation to stop the thief?"

I understand that Englund was in possession of a shotgun at the time he asked the question, but the shotgun was unloaded and I don't think the report mentioned whether he had ammunition for it available. Would it matter?

Should the man be arrested if he asked his question that way? If so, should people who ask similar questions on the Internet be arrested for asking roughly the same question about similar scenarios, whether or not they had a firearm nearby?

These are real questions, not intended to argue any position in this situation. I'm interested in what other people think about it.
 
I completely agree that human lives are worth more than $5 and that no one should be shot for stealing $5 worth of gasoline.

+1.

While chasing a vehicle carrying the man, a woman and a 3-year-old child, Englund asked the Sheriff's Office via cell phone if he should "blow them away," according to a criminal complaint. However, his shotgun was found to be unloaded.

I wonder if his comment was a little bit tongue and cheek.

The situation has touched nerves beyond Bradford Township, about 45 miles north of Minneapolis, where rising crime has brought unusually large numbers of people to town meetings.

Has there been a rash of $5 thefts lately? Don't get me wrong --if everyone
could walk by and take $5 from you without resistance or penalty you would
soon find yourself penniless! However, I wonder if there has been a genuine
increase in crime without an accompanying increase in enforcement efforts
by the government. Hence, the "vigilante" act.

At age 74, Kenneth Englund has a long record as an Isanti County farmer, Township Board member, livestock hauler, church member, road maintenance guy and good neighbor.

Sadly, though, Mr. Englund now realizes his real place in Insane County --serf.
 
Small Town Justice

"Hey, let's go hold up the general store in one o' them little towns up around Cambridge."

"Whut? Dude, you lost yer mind? Them folks shoot people if they catch 'm doin' robbery! Find someplace else, man, someplace easier."

"Ahh, crap. Yer right, Sven, I be tinkin' we best find a town where they ain't got no guns. Hey -- Chicago! Road trip?"
 
Did he KNOW it was only $5.00 that was stolen?

What is wrong with asking the question? He might have been trying to scare the robber, I mean the dude was 76... He is a different vintage that the "ex navy seal" cop that showed up to arrest the perp...

The vehicle Englund chased also carried a woman and a 3-year-old child, the sheriff said, and "what happens if there was a crash?"

Then people get hurt. Is the cop saying that if the police were chasing the car and it crashed that we would be liable??? Because the only one liable was the theif driving the car.

Sheriff Mike Ammend said that people can't take the law into their own hands

I agree, but arresting a perp is not "taking the law in your own hands". Had they got their with the Old man dressed in a judges costume fitting the perp with a noose, we would then accuse him of taking the law in his own hands.

TallPine said:
Newflash: the law is in our hands, the law has always been in our hands, and we just hire people like you so the rest of us can do something else most of the time.

I agree with TallPine 200%. The law has ALWAYS been in our hands and we delegate to police. More and more now days it seems that people refer to the LAW and the GOVERNMENT as if it exists of it's own machinations...
 
WOW.......

In my honest opinion that farmer did nothing wrong. And for him to be thought of as a felon is complete BS. Even more BS is the fact that the closest police station is 14 miles away.
 
Asking if he should, and saying I'm going to are two comletely different intentions. This smacks of a former Twin Cities type resident moving to the country and bringing his Liberal P.C. Bull S#*% with Him.
All this guy saw was the commision of a crime he had no Idea the value of property being taken. Burgalary is still a crime, Stopping a burglary in progress should not be considered "Felony Assault"
 
TallPine Quote:
Sheriff Mike Ammend said that people can't take the law into their own hands

Newflash: the law is in our hands, the law has always been in our hands, and we just hire people like you so the rest of us can do something else most of the time.
Our system was based on English Common Law. Our foundation and much of the set in stone rights(before judicial review) in our constitution are directly descended from it.

Law enforcement was always a duty of every person. LEOs were elected and hired on so most people could focus on other things without letting enforcement lax. This never meant others could not enforce the law, only that some people were directly responsible for it and paid to do so.

It amazes me that it has progressed to the point were anyone apprehending suspects is painted as a vigilante. No, a vigilante is a person that punishes outside the law with what they see as fit punishment for the crime. Pursuing and apprehending someone and handing them over to the justice system, as in the responding officers for transport is not being a vigilante.

People need a history lesson.
 
People need a history lesson.

People need to stop getting in the way of law enforcement officers. Leave them alone and let them do their jobs. If you witness a theft, drug dealing, or even what looks like a murder in progress, it is just none of your business. You are likely to get into big trouble if you poke your unwelcome nose into law enforcement business. Keep moving.
 
"The vehicle Englund chased also carried a woman and a 3-year-old child, the sheriff said, and "what happens if there was a crash?"
-----------------------------------------------------
operator of the car should be charged with tresspasing, theft, child endangerment, and anything else the DA can think up and throw the book at him and the woman. The farmer should (and likely will) have his charges reduced to some minor charge. DA's bargain charges all the time. Why not in this situation? From the sound of the local response in favor of the farmer, hopefully he'll be OK. Still does'nt make it right though.
 
People need to stop getting in the way of law enforcement officers. Leave them alone and let them do their jobs. If you witness a theft, drug dealing, or even what looks like a murder in progress, it is just none of your business. You are likely to get into big trouble if you poke your unwelcome nose into law enforcement business. Keep moving.
The sheriff station is 14 miles away. The guy said it appeared to be the same people that parked there the previous day when a radiator was stolen. How many days and times does a good citizen allow themselves or thier neighbors to be victimized and dutifily report before they help insure the perp is still around by the time the officers arrive?

Women and child? Many meth addicts that go on serial theft and burglary runs have a girfriend with a child or two as well.
The guy made a stupid statement on the phone. He was not justified in lethal force, he is an old man that was trying to stop an ongoing problem in his rural community. He was probably just saying something in jest with another old guy about how tired he was of following them and didn't realize what he said can and will be used against him.

Every entity becomes self serving. Police are trained well but cannot respond instantly to everything. However you can bet the administrators of a PD's response to crime is more officers, better benefits packages to attract more, higher taxes to pay for more, and enough to put one on every street. That would strengthen and help thier position. They want to be in charge of something bigger more powerful and better funded, don't we all. The mentality even if not the logic behind it is likely to trickle down to the other officers as well.
That however does not make it the only solution. If your neighborhood, your property value, and your safety is going downhill it is because you and your neighbors are allowing it to.

Once police are on scene, yes step back, they are better trained and covered by a department and insurance to fight legal battles, you are not. You will just interfere. Yet when they are 10 minutes away and the perp has just finished loading the last of his items in the back of his truck and is about to drive away, your eyes are not what they used to be and making out his license plate is not even possible, nor can you even be sure it is not a stolen vehicle with no traces to them. Do you do nothing? Report you saw a truck drive off? Tell your neighbor that was just robbed the previous day " yeah I saw him load up your stuff and drive off, tiz a darn shame just after you told me about yesterday that it happened again".

Now legaly if it is not even your property, and it is just stuff, not someone being harmed,no I would probably let my neighbor be victimized just to selfishly save my own behind too, but maybe this old man comes from a different time in a different place where neighbors still help neighbors. Then he said something silly while talking with the police as he followed the vehicle.
 
I completely agree that human lives are worth more than $5 and that no one should be shot for stealing $5 worth of gasoline.

I wouldn't shoot anyone for theft of my property but let's be clear that in a crime such as theft it is the criminal who places the dollar value on his life. If he's willing to sell it or risk it for $5, it's on him.
 
Let's see...

14 miles from nearest known police presence...

A history and pattern of thefts...

Two people, who may be meth addicts, stealing who knows what (again) from a neighbors property...

The sole responder is an old man with an empty shotgun and a cell phone.

***************************

I can't criticize what the guy decided to do. It probably seemed very reasonable to him at the time.

The car chase could have been avoided if the geezer had disabled their car first, easily done by taking out a tire or two. Hey, that's what pocket knives are for, right?

Since they're not going anywhere, then, just call the cops on the cell phone and keep the perps in sight until they show up. The shotgun can come into play if the old guy is directly threatened.

Sorry, but the days of shotguns & rock salt without the follow-up lawsuit are long gone. That was probably a better way to handle such things, but it has been outmoded for a few decades now. Too bad really.
 
Reckon they'll call off the celebration, this year? Taking the law into your own hands is politically incorrect.

From Wikipedia:

"On September 7, 1876, outlaw Jesse James tried to rob the First National Bank of Northfield. Armed citizens resisted the robbers and thwarted the theft but not before the bank's cashier, Joseph Lee Heywood, who also served as Carleton's treasurer, was murdered. A couple of the James-Younger gang were killed (the skeleton of one was displayed in the Northfield Historical Society museum for many years) and a couple more arrested. Jesse and Frank James fled to South Dakota. The bank building has since been converted to a museum operated by the Northfield Historical Society. The First National Bank of Northfield is still in operation half a block away. In its front lobby, a glass case showcases a gun used during the attempted robbery.

One result of the attempted bank robbery by the James-Younger gang is an outdoor festival, The Defeat of Jesse James Days, held the weekend after Labor Day every year to commemorate the event. The festival is among the largest outdoor celebrations in Minnesota."

:), Art
 
He's an old guy, probably not got too good eye sight, reaction time etc, and he's not been trained in high-speed pursuit as far as I know. Chasing a vehicle with a woman and child on board through presumably country roads at 70 miles an hours is insanity, no matter how much the guy stole. Over $5...
 
People need to stop getting in the way of law enforcement officers. Leave them alone and let them do their jobs. If you witness a theft, drug dealing, or even what looks like a murder in progress, it is just none of your business. You are likely to get into big trouble if you poke your unwelcome nose into law enforcement business. Keep moving.

REALLY? So you are saying that if you see someone being murdered or raped you would just walk on by? You would allow a criminal to complete their act and then leave them free to perpetuate their violence upon someone else? You can't put a criminal away if there are no witnesses because they all ran away. I don't really believe in the common good anymore, but I do beleive in protecting myself. The next victim could be me or one of my family members, so my selfish interest is served by breaking it up. No offense to you personally, but the idea behing your remark just smacks of a desperate kind of moral cowardice that defies what the law actually empowers you to do in many places, i.e. use deadly force to stop such a henious crime.

Personally, I'm willing to go to court because I broke up what appeared to be a rape in progress than wonder if that was an exhibitionist or if the cops got there in time. Such a passive nature is why criminals are emboldened and willing to strike out in more violent ways. If nobody is going to resist them and the cops are 14 miles away, why not? I'd be doing it for me as much as for that other person being assaulted.
 
Now, now, now, Fosbery. :D

"He's an old guy, probably not got too good eye sight, reaction time etc, and he's not been trained in high-speed pursuit as far as I know. Chasing a vehicle with a woman and child on board through presumably country roads at 70 miles an hours is insanity..."

I resemble that remark! :D

Heck, that "old guy" is only two years older than I am. I still don't find many folks who run the corners faster than I do.

But, then again, folks were considering me sorta insane even back in my SCCA daze...

Art
 
I can't believe some of the folks on this forum are so fickle.:confused: One minute in another thread anti's and the general public are called "sheeple" because they don't support CCW. After reading this thread, I see a lot of "sheeple" comments. "Don't get involved. Let law enforcment take care of it." Doesn't that fly in the face of why CCW laws were written? Or is it that we are a bunch of elitists that think we are the only ones qualified enough to carry a hand gun in public? Shooting someone over $5 is rediculous, but it's the principle of the matter that should be in question. Are you allowed to protect property? According to most, the answer appears to be "no". What fine message to send to criminals, "you can steal, because I try to stop you I'll go to jail." Doesn't make a whole lot of sense now does it...flame away, but that's the way I see it.
 
People need to stop getting in the way of law enforcement officers. Leave them alone and let them do their jobs. If you witness a theft, drug dealing, or even what looks like a murder in progress, it is just none of your business. You are likely to get into big trouble if you poke your unwelcome nose into law enforcement business. Keep moving.

Robert,
If you had added a "puke icon", it could have made your post more clearly sarcastic.


horge
 
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